The Breath of Life

[Stan B]

Thank you @Joseph77,

Interesting! (Luke 1:41 & 44):-

'And it came to pass, that,
when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary,
the babe leaped in her womb;
and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:'

'For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears,
the babe leaped in my womb for joy.'

The fact that the fetus "leaped" doesn't indicate anything significant. That's just a normal part of fetal development. In later months, fetuses move and kick about 30 times per hour. In this instance, the fetus was merely startled, reacting to the loud and boisterous sound of Mary greeting Elizabeth. Like is says in the Bible the fetus leaped "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears".

So the fetus was merely reacting to a loud noise. And I can clearly envision the loud exuberant meeting between Mary and Elizabeth. It is reasonable to believe that Mary and her cousin did not see each other that often, since the arduous trip between their two homes was 70 miles/112 km, and they did not have buses in those days. And for a pregnant 13 year old girl like Mary, that must have been a really challenging trip.

In the original language, an embryo or fetus has no personhood until it is born. This is consistent with ancient Jewish law, wherein a fetus is just a part of the mother's body until it is born.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The fact that the fetus "leaped" doesn't indicate anything significant. That's just a normal part of fetal development. In later months, fetuses move and kick about 30 times per hour. In this instance, the fetus was merely startled, reacting to the loud and boisterous sound of Mary greeting Elizabeth. Like is says in the Bible the fetus leaped "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears".

So the fetus was merely reacting to a loud noise. And I can clearly envision the loud exuberant meeting between Mary and Elizabeth. It is reasonable to believe that Mary and her cousin did not see each other that often, since the arduous trip between their two homes was 70 miles/112 km, and they did not have buses in those days. And for a pregnant 13 year old girl like Mary, that must have been a really challenging trip.

In the original language, an embryo or fetus has no personhood until it is born. This is consistent with ancient Jewish law, wherein a fetus is just a part of the mother's body until it is born.

No the fetus is inside a sack of fluid so loud noises are not startling....(ever had your head underwater? Sounds are muffled)....also, fetuses are viewed by ultrasound smiling, sucking their thumbs, having hiccups, and urinating inside the womb.

 

[charity]

The fact that the fetus "leaped" doesn't indicate anything significant. That's just a normal part of fetal development. In later months, fetuses move and kick about 30 times per hour. In this instance, the fetus was merely startled, reacting to the loud and boisterous sound of Mary greeting Elizabeth. Like is says in the Bible the fetus leaped "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears".

So the fetus was merely reacting to a loud noise. And I can clearly envision the loud exuberant meeting between Mary and Elizabeth. It is reasonable to believe that Mary and her cousin did not see each other that often, since the arduous trip between their two homes was 70 miles/112 km, and they did not have buses in those days. And for a pregnant 13 year old girl like Mary, that must have been a really challenging trip.

In the original language, an embryo or fetus has no personhood until it is born. This is consistent with ancient Jewish law, wherein a fetus is just a part of the mother's body until it is born.

Hello @Stan B

But it was living, that is the point being made.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[quietthinker]

So here is my question.

If you believe that the breath of life leaving at death is the cessation of the person, then doesn't this equally mean that until that breath of life is inhaled, there is not yet a person?

What we need to be mindful of marks, is that we do not make this thing walk on all legs that can be invented or conjured up.

Stan's position of deeming the body of an unborn child dead because it does not have the breath in its lungs is clearly short sighted and a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what 'breath' is.
The word 'breath' is interchangeable with the word 'spirit'. This neither means that the body receives a 'spiritual entity' any more than a child not inhaling air into its lungs while in the womb means that it is dead.

Just on these two points it is possible to see how skewed logic (mans wisdom) will attempt to justify any fable if it suits his paradigm.

To use scripture to ratchet these errors into a position that justifies them is the same logic the Pharisees and Sadducees used way back then.

 

[Philip James]

For unlike the creation of Adam, the child is already alive within the womb, drawing sustenance from and oxygenated by the Mother.

Ecc 11:5

Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother's womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe

Equating the 'breath of life' with the first breath we take upon leaving the womb is clearly incorrect.

Peace be with you!

 

[marks]

What we need to be mindful of marks, is that we do not make this thing walk on all legs that can be invented or conjured up.

OK. I guess no one should do that then.

Myself, I'm thinking to test the doctrine.

Stan's position of deeming the body of an unborn child dead because it does not have the breath in its lungs is clearly short sighted and a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what 'breath' is.
The word 'breath' is interchangeable with the word 'spirit'. This neither means that the body receives a 'spiritual entity' any more than a child not inhaling air into its lungs while in the womb means that it is dead.

So then basically your position is that we shouldn't think of this as the air we breathe, rather, the spirit.

I've been going through all the places "breath" appears on the Bible, reading the statements, the contexts,

I thought this was an interesting one . . .

Job 33:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
"The Spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Mighty doth quicken me."

Or the KJV
"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

As I look at all these places . . . God breathed life into Adam's nostrils . . . I don't know.

Just on these two points it is possible to see how skewed logic (mans wisdom) will attempt to justify any fable if it suits his paradigm.

People are very good at that. This is one reason why I like to follow up perceived inconsistencies in either my view or someone else's.

To use scripture to ratchet these errors into a position that justifies them is the same logic the Pharisees and Sadducees used way back then.

I'm not sure what you mean here, maybe you are mistaking my intent.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ecc 11:5

Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother's womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe

Equating the 'breath of life' with the first breath we take upon leaving the womb is clearly incorrect.

Peace be with you!

What translation is this? I was wondering why I didn't recognize this even though I read it just 2 days ago.

The KJV is . . .

5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Youngs LITV . . .

As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, How -- bones in the womb of the full one, So thou knowest not the work of God who maketh the whole.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

What translation is this?

The new American Bible.

The New American Bible - IntraText

Peace!

 

[pompadour]

God said " I knew you before you were in your mothers womb "

 

[Stan B]

God said " I knew you before you were in your mothers womb "

No big deal! He knew us all, those whom "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . ." Ephesians 1:4

Simply, He knew everything that would happen before the foundation of the world. He knew who would be born and who wouldn't.

 

[brionne]

I've been reading @Stan B and @charity about the breath of life from God.

I picture in creation when the Son of God kneels on the ground and gathers together a pile of dirt, pats it together into the shape of a man, then breaths life into the man.

We talk about Solomon's question, as he pondered the unknown,

Ecclesiaste 3
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Who knows? Dust returns to dust, and the breath of life returns to God?

Someone said this in a way I really liked.

The body is like the filament in a light bulb, and the breath of life is like electricity, and light is like the soul of man. Give breath to the body, and we are a living soul. Take away that breath, and there is no more soul, just like there is no light after you unplug the lamp.

I know Chris's view, as many share, is that this breath of life leaves, and life leaves with it, until it is restored in the resurrection.

I know that Stan's view is that until the breath of life arrives, at birth, the fetus is not yet a living soul.

So here is my question.

If you believe that the breath of life leaving at death is the cessation of the person, then doesn't this equally mean that until that breath of life is inhaled, there is not yet a person?

To be clear, I don't hold to this view. I believe God gives life at conception, and that the soul as we think of it survives the death of the body.

Much love!

Good question.
Im only going to answer by making a comparison of other 'living' organsism that dont have a breath such as fish. They breath water, not air. Yet they are living and form part of Gods creations. The human embryo is spoken of by King David in the bible as something God watches over as it grows. So what we think of an embryo may be very different to how God feels about it.

Psalm 139:13
For you produced my kidney; You kept me screened off in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because in an awe-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;
All its parts were written in your book
Regarding the days when they were formed,
Before any of them existed.

 

[Stan B]

Ecc 11:5

Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother's womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe

Equating the 'breath of life' with the first breath we take upon leaving the womb is clearly incorrect.

Wow! James, I don't know what translation you are using, but in checking a number of translations, I can find nothing vaguely approximating what you have 'quoted'. So I go to the NASB, which is considered by scholars to be the gold standard in literal translation of the original, and it says nothing whatsoever about the point you are attempting to make.

"Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5 NASB

 

[Philip James]

Wow! James, I don't know what translation you are using, but in checking a number of translations, I can find nothing vaguely approximating what you have 'quoted'. So I go to the NASB, which is considered by scholars to be the gold standard in literal translation of the original, and it says nothing whatsoever about the point you are attempting to make.

"Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5 NASB

hello Stan,

you like the NASB? Did you read the footnotes?

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Just to add for those interested, you can find a list of many different translations here:

Ecclesiastes 11:5 - Bible Gateway

 

[Stan B]

hello Stan,

you like the NASB? Did you read the footnotes?

Okay. Duly noted. FN says: "Or with many mss how the spirit enters the bones in the womb"

So I checked 50 "translations", and 7 record your version:

ESV AMPC TLB NOG NABRE RSVCE TLV

"As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything." ESV

Some of these translations are not really translations, but paraphrases and commentaries

It does not say when or how the spirit enters, but does not exclude the remainder of Scripture that declares that the breath/spirit of life enters at birth.

So in these situations I usually go with the most respected translations, and also the majority, wherein this case your translation is outnumbered by 43 to 7.

To suggest that the breath of life enters a fetus while it is still submerged in the amniotic sack doesn't make sense to me.

.

 

[marks]

Good question.
Im only going to answer by making a comparison of other 'living' organsism that dont have a breath such as fish. They breath water, not air. Yet they are living and form part of Gods creations. The human embryo is spoken of by King David in the bible as something God watches over as it grows. So what we think of an embryo may be very different to how God feels about it.

Psalm 139:13
For you produced my kidney; You kept me screened off in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because in an awe-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;
All its parts were written in your book
Regarding the days when they were formed,
Before any of them existed.

Hi brionne,

That's true! God makes it clear He is involved in forming us from our very beginning. "When I was made in secret . . .", "though hast covered me", I was there being formed by God in my mother's womb. Not just an empty container waiting for a person, but, me.

There's something else in this psalm . . .

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

"For thou hast possessed my reins, thou hast covered me in my mother's womb."

It's the reason for something.

God is with me everywhere. And no matter where I am He is there to lead me. Nothing hides me from Him.

Because . . . You formed my inward parts, You covered me in my mother's womb.

Nothing hides me from God, nothing prevents Him for leading me with knowledge and understanding, because He is the one who put me together in the first place, and I am always in His sight.

Much love!

 

[Stan B]

16 Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;
All its parts were written in your book
Regarding the days when they were formed,
Before any of them existed.

Another weird "translation". The correct translation is:

"Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them."

 

[quietthinker]

To suggest that the breath of life enters a fetus while it is still submerged in the amniotic sack doesn't make sense to me.

Consider understanding 'the breath of life' to mean more than air in the lungs.....couple it with 'the spirit of life' and its meaning will be obvious.

 

[Stan B]

Consider understanding 'the breath of life' to mean more than air in the lungs.....couple it with 'the spirit of life' and its meaning will be obvious.

I have never separated the two as separate ideas. The breath and spirit [of God] are one and the same entity: Holy Spirit' is 'Ha Ruach Ha Kodesh. ... The Spirit or 'ruach' by itself, is the breath of Yahweh which carries His life-force, but not necessarily the Presence of His Person., "Ruach".

It is that breath/spirit that gives us life.

 

[Philip James]

It is that breath/spirit that gives us life

Not just us, but all living things.

Inanimate things cannot produce life. It is that spirit of life that produces life..

And from the moment of conception, there is a unique human life that is animated by that 'breath of life'.

Peace be with you!