The Case Against the Trinity

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Ronald Nolette

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Just my two cents but I suspect from the world's point of view, they would be much more open to the gospel if they saw Christ displayed in us....by the power of God..... through the indwelling Spirit, as opposed to listening to endless, often head-knowledge filled debates about the mystery of God when at best, we all see through a glass darkly.

Sadly, arguments like this one (how about let's call them like they are... deal?) never seem to end with one side saying "Ohhhhh, I see now!! You are perfectly right and I was so blind! Thank you so much for teaching me the truth" Like EVER. LOL.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Gids

The World will never be open to eh gospel no matter what we do or how Godly our lives are! WE live our lives first and foremost to glorify God.

Second we are to sew seeds and bring in the harvest that is in the midst of the world. The world will never turn to Jesus. Teh lost sheep will, but the goats? Never!
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I always thought the below verse, regardless of the translation, was clear about Jesus being God in the Flesh. This is what the Patriarchs were looking forward to . . . the awaited Messiah.

Isaiah 7:14 NLT - "All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')."

The name Immanuel is first mentioned by the prophet Isaiah (7:14; 8:8) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.).
In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isa 7:1-6) Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with this reassuring message:

“Listen, please, O house of David. . . . Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.”—Isa 7:13-16.
The point is 2nd Timothy since this person who lived in the time of king Ahaz of the 8th century B.C.E. who name is Immanuel am I to believe this person who died long before Jesus was born a human to be God simply because the scriptures say his name is Immanuel, I don't think so.
 
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DNB

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There's also this one:

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
There is not a single trinitarian in the world, throughout history, that would ever call the son, the Father. For, the only thing that could possibly separate and distinguish three all powerful and identical beings, is their name. So, the passage is clearly using elaborate and hyperbolic terminology to express a rather profound concept - the Messiah being exalted to a Lordship status.

Again, Pearl, one passage defines absolutely nothing. We all are aware of Scripture's liberal use of various literary conventions, hyperbole, analogy and metaphor. Thus, we don't go off into the mystic and implausible over such an ambiguous and sparse testimony. Doctrines are not established by sporadic and isolated verses. Especially one of this magnitude and incomprehensibility.
 
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101G

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The name Immanuel is first mentioned by the prophet Isaiah (7:14; 8:8) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.).
In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isa 7:1-6) Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with this reassuring message:

“Listen, please, O house of David. . . . Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.”—Isa 7:13-16.
The point is 2nd Timothy since this person who lived in the time of king Ahaz of the 8th century B.C.E. who name is Immanuel am I to believe this person who died long before Jesus was born a human to be God simply because the scriptures say his name is Immanuel, I don't think so.
that has nothing to do with this, (the coming of God in Flesh). that's false teaching. I guess GOD, was off his rockers when he sent his angel to Joseph, telling then this what was prophesied in king Ahaz day.

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Matthew 1:22 "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,"
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:"
Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

well, well, well, well. and another well. if anyone believe that the incident here with A. God who sent the angel, and B. Joseph who heard the angel, and C. the angel himself got all of this confusede with a person who lived in the time of king Ahaz of the 8th century B.C.E. who name is Immanuel. they have to be out of their fleshly mind. even a unsaved person can clearly distinguish what is happening here and what was prophesied in king Ahaz day.

I just cannot believe how people is not learned in the scriptures. what happen here with Joseph and Mary was prophesied to HAPPEN at this time, and not in king Ahaz day.

my God help us all.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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There's also this one:

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
CORRECT, and ON POINT. you're 100% Correct.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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It does (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

If you deny that Jesus is "The everlasting Father" you are denying that He is the only begotten Son of God (Isaiah 9:6).[/Quote\]

First off I believe the first part of John 1:1 isn't wrong when it says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God. This isn't telling me that the Word is God. Now I know that there are those who want to contradict the first half of John 1:1 when they read the last half of John 1:1. Well I believe they're wrong for contradicting the first half of John 1:1. God knows how to communicate with his people if he wanted people to understand that he and the Word were the same person I believe he wouldn't have inspired John to say that the Word was with the God. The fact that at John 1:2 God inspires him to write again: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God again tells you that the Word isn't God but was with the God. I'm not going to ignore scripture that shows the Word was with the God just because you want ignore John when he wrote that at John 20:30,31 that everything that he had written was to prove that Jesus wasn't God but the Son of God. This is what I believe no matter what others do believe.



Also yes Jesus was also to be an “Eternal Father.” How would that be though? Well, Adam was the first father of the human race. However, he lost the opportunity to be an “eternal father” when he sinned. He could no longer give his children everlasting life as an inheritance. Jesus, on the other hand, did not sin. And by sacrificing his sinless life for mankind, he opened the way to everlasting life for those who exercised faith. (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2) He thus will give them the everlasting life that Adam failed to give them. Hence, the Bible calls him “the last Adam,” “a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45) He is properly called the “Eternal Father” of the future perfect human race. Jesus isn't our Eternal Father because he's God, he's our Eternal Father because he's the Only Begotten Son of God.



If you deny that Jesus is "The everlasting Father" you are denying that He is the only begotten Son of God (Isaiah 9:6).
 

justbyfaith

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Also yes Jesus was also to be an “Eternal Father.”

Nope; the exact wording is "The everlasting Father".

You don't get to change it twice; that is engaging in eisegesis.

And whether it is saying that He is the eternal Father or saying that He is the everlasting Father, it is saying that He is the Father (God).
 

friend of

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In Christ all things were created. Jesus claims to be God in multiple ways in the new testament.
 

101G

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John 10:18
on point, and this too, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?"
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body."

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

2nd Timothy Group

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The name Immanuel is first mentioned by the prophet Isaiah (7:14; 8:8) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.).
In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isa 7:1-6) Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with this reassuring message:

“Listen, please, O house of David. . . . Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.”—Isa 7:13-16.
The point is 2nd Timothy since this person who lived in the time of king Ahaz of the 8th century B.C.E. who name is Immanuel am I to believe this person who died long before Jesus was born a human to be God simply because the scriptures say his name is Immanuel, I don't think so.

The Lord Himself is the one saying that Immanuel, meaning "God is with us," is dwelling amongst us. What you believe about Immanuel of the Old Testament is up to you.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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There is not a single trinitarian in the world, throughout history, that would ever call the son, the Father. For, the only thing that could possibly separate and distinguish three all-powerful and identical beings is their name. So, the passage is clearly using elaborate and hyperbolic terminology to express a rather profound concept - the Messiah being exalted to a Lordship status.

Again, Pearl, one passage defines absolutely nothing. We all are aware of Scripture's liberal use of various literary conventions, hyperbole, analogy, and metaphor. Thus, we don't go off into the mystic and implausible over such an ambiguous and sparse testimony. Doctrines are not established by sporadic and isolated verses.

It would be of the grossest errors, to refer to one as God when in reality, He was not. I wouldn't want to do it . . . but there it is. Yes, we need to give deep credence to Isa 9:06. Why? Because it is a Keystone Passage of the entire Bible. It doesn't flippantly reference the Baby Messiah as God.
 

Gideons300

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The World will never be open to eh gospel no matter what we do or how Godly our lives are! WE live our lives first and foremost to glorify God.

Second we are to sew seeds and bring in the harvest that is in the midst of the world. The world will never turn to Jesus. Teh lost sheep will, but the goats? Never!
Yes, but we do not know who are goats and who are potential sheep. Paul held the cloaks of those stoning Stephen, and attacked the saints himself in the early church. Yet, I suspect that Stephens actions had a huge effect on Paul.

Far more have been turned away from Christianity due to our lack of fruit, than drawn to it by the love we have one for another.

As to your statement about living our lives to glorify the Lord, I agree. It is just sad that so many do not do so, or even see a need. They have their ticket stamped, so why worry about others? That attitude is the attitude exemplified by the Laodiceans, is it not?

Are you familiar with a man called 'praying Hyde'? In the 1800's, he prayed that God would allow him to lead a soul a day to the Lord in his daily interactions of life. Then..... two. Then.... three. I think if ai recall accurately he got up to four souls a day.

Joy and love are great motivators. Religion? Not so much. The harvest is out there, ripe and ready to pop. Yes, there are plenty in the world who have no desire in the least, but I am convinced that if we would just display Jesus to the world, it will shock us how many there are who will come if they simply see Christ in us.

But if our attitude is that it is no use, and they are all hell-bound, so why sweat it, then it might be time to re-think our relationship with God and our call to be a light to the world.

God tells us this in Ezekiel 36 concerning the final outpouring that is fast approaching...

"And I will sanctify My great name which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them;

and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God , when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Thus saith the Lord God: I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel to do it for them.

I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men; and they shall know that I am the Lord.”

Ezekiel 36:23,37-38


Religion can be a great draw for those in the world with a religious bent, but there are multitudes out there who will end up coming to the Lord, who have no desire for once a week church services. They hunger for life, for victory, for purpose, for joy, to be loved despite themselves and to feel like they belong to something bigger than themselves.

But we must understand, if we do not possess it ourselves, how can we give it away? If that is us, is it not time to cry out for God to change that in us and fill us anew?

blessings,

Gids
 

Mosheli

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Let me reiterate one of the most important facts against the trinity: the trinity is not in the Bible, not the word, not the concept. The Bible was written by monotheist Jews, who reject the trinity. There is no verse in the Bible that states the nature of God is triune - coequal....

Okay here are some more biblical and extra-biblical evidences excluding the ones I already gave (all from my blog article on Jesus) and ones others have given.

- 3 nails in the crucifixion?

- Trinity of Kether Binah Hokhmah in the Cabala confirms trinity?

- "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19.

- "the Father, the Word and the Spirit, and these 3 are 1" (1 John 5:7-8).

- Psalm 110: "the Lord said to my Lord"? (Two Lords.)

- Triads in the natural world / creation.
3 lobes of the brain.
3 dimensions.
"space, matter, energy"?
3 states of matter: solid, liquid, gas.

- "Allah has 2 right hands"? = 2 persons or 3 hands?

- Triads in gentile mythologies also seem to confirm the biblical "trinity", eg:
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Indian).

- There is also a false trinity of the Dragon, the Sea Beast and the Earth Beast in Revelation.

- The papacy has a false trinity of White Pope (father), Jesuit Black Pope (Jesus the son) and Red Pope.

- 3 letters in YHWH.

- Pliny the Younger records that Christians sang a hymn to Christ as a god.

- Jesus was/is called "Lord" (Adonai).

- The name Jesus "God + salvation/saves" has Jhvh/God in it.

- "Yehoshua/Jesus is Yhwh/Jhvh with an sh put in it"?

- Jesus made clay when he healed the blind man, like the Creator in Genesis.

- Jesus is called the "Only begotten" "Son of (the most high) God". How can God have a son that is not also God too? "Son of God = incarnation of God". It can't be just be a direct creation of God, it is more than that.
Proverbs 30:4 "what is his son's name?"
"Declared to be the son of God ...." Romans 1:4.
"God ... has spoken to us in his son" (Hebrews 1:1-2).
Some demons/spirits cried out that Jesus was son of god.
Roman soldier at death of Jesus said "truly this was the son of god" and/or "a righteous man" (Matt 27:54; Mk 15:39).
"The high priest answered him, "I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said it."" (Matt 26:54. John 10:34-36.)
Jesus called God "Father".
Jesus had no wife or children or descendants (implying because he was God and his children would be God too).

- Jesus said to the disciples/apostles "I and the father are One", "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

- Scribes and Pharisees tried to kill Jesus because of "blasphemy".

- Meanings of names of 10 patriarchs in Genesis "..., the Blessed God, shall come down, teaching, his death shall bring, despairing, comfort."

- "God was manifest in the flesh...." 1 Timothy 3:16.

- Jesus calmed the storm in the sea of Galilee and the apostles said "who is this that commands even the wind and the sea" implying a connection with God.

- "Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God" (Philippians 2:5-5).

- "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).

- "The son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being...." (Hebrews 1:3.)

- Jesus is confirmed as one with God in this verse "For unto us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (9:7).

- Among the 99 names of Allah are quite a few which Jesus was also called or identified as being in the New Testament including The Guide to the Right Path, The Guide/Way, The Light, The Heir / The Inheritor of All, The Originator, The First, The Emancipator, The Forgiver, The Last, Wahid "The Unique/Single", Ahad "The One", The Living, The Resurrector, The Truth/Reality, The Witness, The Living One, The Judge, The Bringer of Judgment, The Just, The Restrainer, Salaam "The Giver of Peace", Malik "The King/Lord/Master".

- "who is this who forgives sins, none but God can".

- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). "through whom he (Jesus) also made the universe" (Hebrews 1:2). "Jesus Christ, by who are all things, and we exist through him" (1 Cor 8:5-7).

- Jesus came from heaven/above (John 6:38; 8:23). Jesus existed before he was born ("before Abraham was I Am", "from ancient times" Micah 5:2, "in the beginning" John 1, "where do you come from" said Pilate). But Jesus is not an angel: "For to which of the angels did God ever say, "you are my son; today I have become your Father"" etc. (Hebrews 1:5 etc).

- The spirit of God and the spirit of Christ seem to be the same in Romans 8:9.

- The Ark of the Covenant is a symbol of Jesus/Messiah. One source says the ark "contained a hexagram representing the sexual union of God and Goddess". The golden ark in holy of holies "symbolised the localised presence of God on earth".
 

justbyfaith

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- Psalm 110: "the Lord said to my Lord"? (Two Lords.)

And yet, one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21; 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

- "Allah has 2 right hands"? = 2 persons or 3 hands?

I wouldn't give much credence to Islam.

- Among the 99 names of Allah are quite a few which Jesus was also called or identified as being in the New Testament including The Guide to the Right Path, The Guide/Way, The Light, The Heir / The Inheritor of All, The Originator, The First, The Emancipator, The Forgiver, The Last, Wahid "The Unique/Single", Ahad "The One", The Living, The Resurrector, The Truth/Reality, The Witness, The Living One, The Judge, The Bringer of Judgment, The Just, The Restrainer, Salaam "The Giver of Peace", Malik "The King/Lord/Master".

Again, I wouldn't give much credence to Islam.

- The Ark of the Covenant is a symbol of Jesus/Messiah. One source says the ark "contained a hexagram representing the sexual union of God and Goddess". The golden ark in holy of holies "symbolised the localised presence of God on earth".

sounds sketchy to me.
 

DNB

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It would be of the grossest errors, to refer to one as God when in reality, He was not. I wouldn't want to do it . . . but there it is. Yes, we need to give deep credence to Isa 9:06. Why? Because it is a Keystone Passage of the entire Bible. It doesn't flippantly reference the Baby Messiah as God.
But, I believe that I gave an explanation as to why such rhetoric in Isaiah 9:6 does not demand the allusion to the transcendent God almighty. If the Son is referenced as 'Almighty God', and at the same time 'Everlasting Father', which patently contradicts trinitarian theology, then clearly we must not be hyper-literal in this pericope, on any level. Both terms are to be understood as hyperbole, but denoting an authority and hierarchy over his peer - his fellow humans.
 

Wrangler

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and they shall call his name Emmanuel

This one always stood out to me. Wasn't his name actually NOT Emmanuel?

Also, the hyperbole that calling someone something is not the same as that person is that something. For instance, Saul and David were Anointed by God but this does not mean that God was with them, literally, right?
 

101G

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Correct Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." and his name is in verse 21,
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
in Hebrew it's "YESHUA".. Strong's H3442, it is written Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin, " he will save".

as for the Anointing, well God was with him until he disobeyed. meaning Saul

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Wrangler

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- Psalm 110: "the LORD said to my Lord"? (Two Lords.)

And yet, one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21; 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

No, there is one God, the LORD, capital. There are many lowercase, lords. While any group of people only have only one lord at a time, the Christian lord Jesus was given authority by the LORD God. Hierarchy. Equality. Not Equal. NOTE: The head of Christ is not 'the Father' but God in his unitarian nature.


But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3
 

Wrangler

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In Christ all things were created. Jesus claims to be God in multiple ways in the new testament.

No, not quite. If you read the whole chapter, it is talking about renewing things through Christ. The recreation of all things reconciled through Jesus to God is NOT the same as creation by God in Genesis.
 
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