The Case Against the Trinity

[Brakelite]

Some questions I ask trinitarians...

When the Bible says that God gave His only begotten Son, and sent that Son into the world (John 3:16,17) what reason is there not to believe that God actually had a literal preincarnate Son to give?

If Jesus is the literal Son of His Father and therefore not a CO eternal being and Through whom the Father created all things as scripture reveals, (Col.1:15,16) why is His divinity questioned?

Why is a concept which arose in the 4th century considered a better means by which to ascribe divinity to Christ than the plain concise declaration of Peter, "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God?".

Why is it necessary to make the Father and the Son of equal ages (if you believe in a preincarnate Son) in order to fully establish the divinity of Jesus particularly in the light of Colossians 2:9?

And finally, why can we not simply accept the Bible testimony regarding the one true God, instead of denying, reasoning, and teaching something contrary?

KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

KJV Ephesians 4:6
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KJV 1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

KJV Ephesians 1:15-17
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

To quote a late 19th century scholar and historian...

"There were some very early that turned the doctrine of the Trinity into tri- theism, and instead of three Divine persons, brought in three collateral, coordinate, and self originated beings, making them 3 absolute and independent principles... Which is the most proper notion of 3 gods.

 

[Wrangler]

So, one of the ways one knows trinitarians are are projecting their doctrine onto the text is to rely on Jesus supposedly claiming divinity. I offer this verse for your consideration.

Jesus: 54 If I were trying to make Myself somebody important, it would be a waste of time. That kind of fame is worth nothing. It is the Father who is behind Me, urging Me on, giving Me praise. You say, “He is our God,” 55 but you are not in relationship with Him. I know Him intimately; even if I said anything other than the truth, I would be a liar, like you. I know Him, and I do as He says.
John 8:54-55 (VOICE)

Jesus is saying if he were to glorify himself, it would mean nothing. Yet, trinitarians claim just a few short verses later, v58, he is claiming everything, to be God incarnate. Yet, again, a few verses later, when a formerly blind man make the same I AM claim in John 9:9, trinitarians deny this is a claim of divinity.

NOTE: The audience of Jesus knew the Father alone is God and Jesus did not correct their understanding. Powerful stuff.

 

[Wrangler]

When the Bible says that God gave His only begotten Son, and sent that Son into the world (John 3:16,17) what reason is there not to believe that God actually had a literal preincarnate Son to give?

What answer do you get?

 

[Brakelite]

What answer do you get?

No reason.

 

[Brakelite]

So, one of the ways one knows trinitarians are are projecting their doctrine onto the text is to rely on Jesus supposedly claiming divinity. I offer this verse for your consideration.

Jesus: 54 If I were trying to make Myself somebody important, it would be a waste of time. That kind of fame is worth nothing. It is the Father who is behind Me, urging Me on, giving Me praise. You say, “He is our God,” 55 but you are not in relationship with Him. I know Him intimately; even if I said anything other than the truth, I would be a liar, like you. I know Him, and I do as He says.
John 8:54-55 (VOICE)

Jesus is saying if he were to glorify himself, it would mean nothing. Yet, trinitarians claim just a few short verses later, v58, he is claiming everything, to be God incarnate. Yet, again, a few verses later, when a formerly blind man make the same I AM claim in John 9:9, trinitarians deny this is a claim of divinity.

NOTE: The audience of Jesus knew the Father alone is God and Jesus did not correct their understanding. Powerful stuff.

What do you make of the following?
KJV John 10:25-38
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[Wrangler]

What do you make of the following?
KJV John 10:25-38

Honestly, I cannot make out KJV. When I get the chance, I’ll read a modern translation and get back to you.

 

[Wrangler]

You do not have to be God - or claim to be God - to be guilty of blasphemy.

Regarding the last verse, 'you will know that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father;' that is the fate of us all. We are all children of God. Jesus is but the 1st fruits as it says in John 10:23.

 

[Brakelite]

You do not have to be God - or claim to be God - to be guilty of blasphemy.

You do not have to be God - to be guilty of blasphemy?

 

[Wrangler]

 

[Wrangler]

In my devotional reading today I came across this gem:
32 He will be great, he will be called Son of Ha‘Elyon. Adonai, God, will give him the throne of his forefather David;
Luke 1:32 (Complete Jewish Bible)

God, in his unitarian nature, will give the throne to Jesus. This is not the language in describing God incarnate.

 

[Wrangler]

Verse of the day
Acts 4:10,12 (The Voice)
I want all of you and all of the people of Israel to know this man standing in front of you—obviously in good health—was healed by the authority of Jesus of Nazareth, the Anointed One. This is the same Jesus whom you crucified and whom God raised from the dead.

Who raised Jesus from the dead? God, in his unitarian nature. (Not 'the Father.')

 

[amigo de christo]

Let us simply believe the truth .
For there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father , the Word , the Son and these three are ONE .
And let us praise and thank and rejoice in the glorious Lord .
When JESUS said before abraham was I AM , bank on that glorious Truth .
And let us be continually thanking GOD the Father of our Lord and savoir JESUS CHRIST .
Sing to the Lord my friends .

 

[Wrangler]

Let us simply believe the truth .
For there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father , the Word , the Son and these three are ONE .

This is nowhere to be found in scripture - but is found in a flawed half a millennia old corruption. Already trolled in this thread. Already refuted. God, in his unitarian nature certifies the truth of His Son.

7 So there are three testifying witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. All three are in total agreement. 9 If we accept the testimonies of people, then we must realize the testimony of God is greater than that of any person. God certified the truth about His own Son.
1 John 5:7-9 (Voice)

 

[amigo de christo]

Its simple my friend . What did JESUS tell them . HE who believes in me shall never DIE .
Dont mean the body wont . Just the soul wont die . JESUS soul , never died . only the body did .

 

[Wrangler]

Its simple my friend .

My friend, you simply do not understand what this thread is about. The purpose of this thread is to STRENGTHEN the case against trinitarianism. If you want to debate it, feel free to post in the many other threads.

 

[jaybird]

i am a big reader of the dead sea scrolls. not an expert but i do enjoy the insight to the way people thought in the early days. most all theology experts, as well as me agree that the Essenes were the sect of John the baptist. the Essenes are mostly known for the Hebrew bible text that they copied and preserved for the world, but they also had theology writings that many consider the first Christian writings, they called themselves a new covenant community, were expecting a messiah, taught against oaths, fought with the pharisees, etc etc. one thing you will not find, no trinity teachings.
Josephus called these guys the most revered teachers of the day, but i guess the trinity was over their head.

 

[Wrangler]

one thing you will not find, no trinity teachings.
Josephus called these guys the most revered teachers of the day

Not to mention the trinity not mentioned in any of the 66 books of the Bible once.

The idea is so important, it is not mentioned once!

 

[jaybird]

Not to mention the trinity not mentioned in any of the 66 books of the Bible once.

The idea is so important, it is not mentioned once!

there is also no controversy in the early days. the pharisees were always testing Jesus, they never once tested Jesus with the trinity. then you have all the early church conflicts, circumcision for the gentiles, food laws, giving thanks for food, but no trinity conflict.
what food we eat, big deal!
is the Most High one or three, not a big deal?

 

[Wrangler]

the pharisees were always testing Jesus, they never once tested Jesus with the trinity.

Great point! I never thought of that.

 

[jaybird]

Great point! I never thought of that.

you ever read Isaac Newtons writings on the trinity? he proposed the trinity represented the fallen church of revelation. he also had access to the library at trinity college (ironic) and read a lot on the early church, pre rome, and believed he found lots of proof that the early church fathers were not trinitarians.