The Case Against the Trinity

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theefaith

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I have no idea how you suppose that supports your position or how you suppose it strengthens the case against trinitarianism.
Lord and God are the same

Jesus is God
Isaiah 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."
 

MatthewG

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This never ends.

When was younger, would desire to fight people who were always on about the trinity.

Now am to the point that it seems to me not a problem and no longer care.

Believe how you want when it comes to the trinity but dont make that your focus in life to fight about haha.

Trying to prove one is right and one is wrong. ~ Enjoy your relationship with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ now today.

1 John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

take care!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Lord and God are the same

Jesus is God
Isaiah 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

are you saying that The Persons in the Godhead are singular?
 

Wrangler

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Trying to prove one is right and one is wrong. ~ Enjoy your relationship with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ now today.

1 John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

The trinity is undermined by yet another verse. NOTE: Complete absence of the non-existent 3rd person.
 

Wrangler

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Did you check the link I posted about my thread on the Holy Trinity in Isaiah 48.16

No as I stay out of FOR trinity threads. But again I have no idea how you suppose that verse supports trinitarianism. Jesus says he was sent and the one who sends is greater than the one sent. No kind of equality there.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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No as I stay out of FOR trinity threads. But again I have no idea how you suppose that verse supports trinitarianism. Jesus says he was sent and the one who sends is greater than the one sent. No kind of equality there.

See your willful disregard to what the Bible actually teaches. The Speaker in this passage and especially verse 16 is YHWH. He says that Adonay YHWH is sending Him and His Spirit. The Hebrew is clear that Three Persons are meant. Even though Jesus is being sent He is 100 % YHWH. very simple. And I have also shown from the Hebrew that the Holy Spirit is also YHWH in the Old Testament though distinct from the Father and Jesus Christ.
 

Wrangler

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He says that Adonay YHWH is sending Him and His Spirit.

I agree, there is no trinity in the Bible. There is only God and his son. God is Spirit and his spirit is holy. Only one imposing trinitarian dogma would suppose the unitarian text of Isaiah 48.16 supports anything more than 2 beings.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I agree, there is no trinity in the Bible. There is only God and his son. God is Spirit and his spirit is holy. Only one imposing trinitarian dogma would suppose the unitarian text of Isaiah 48.16 supports anything more than 2 beings.

If for argument sake 2 Persons are mentioned in Isaiah 48.16. Then Unitarianism is destroyed
 

theefaith

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are you saying that The Persons in the Godhead are singular?

most holy trinity three divine persons on divine nature

Athanasius Creed!

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
 

Heart2Soul

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No, Jesus never said he God or was equal to God. On the contrary, Jesus said God was greater and knew more than him.
Phil 2 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
⁶ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,


“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
— John 5:18 (NKJV)

John 5 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁹ Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
²⁰ For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
²¹ For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
²² For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
²³ that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

²⁶ For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
²⁷ and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
 

theefaith

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Phil 2 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
⁶ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,


“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
— John 5:18 (NKJV)

John 5 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁹ Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
²⁰ For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
²¹ For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
²² For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
²³ that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

²⁶ For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
²⁷ and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

father and son are persons not nature’s

obedience of the person of the son to the person of the father only
 

Heart2Soul

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father and son are persons not nature’s

obedience of the person of the son to the person of the father only
What are you trying to convey?
God is Spirit..AND
He is my Father
Jesus is my Lord and Savior
The Holy Spirit is my comforter and teacher.
 

Wrangler

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More verses that do not support trinitarianism. Regarding the desperate attempt to suppose a vague verse undermines the unitarian text. Let me re-state my point: No, Jesus never said he God or was equal to God. On the contrary, Jesus said God was greater and knew more than him.

Phil 2 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
⁶ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

These are not the words of Jesus ... We are all made in the image (or form of God). This makes us not equal to God either.

“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 5:18 (NKJV)

These are also not the words of Jesus ... This is most bizarre verse to rely on for support. Referring to what other people claim is not a statement you, yourself are making, right? That is, unless, you are also prepared to admit that Jesus, breaking the Sabbath is a sinner who deserved to die - as the Jews sought pursuant to Numbers 15:32-36?

Interesting that Jesus defense to this claim is Psalm 82:6, we are ALL sons and daughter of God. Again this does not make us equal to God. See Jesus citing the Shema @ Mark 12:29, 32.
 

Hemlock

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Non-Trinnie Ninnys and Not-Godder Plodders - make me wanna upchuck.
 
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