The Catholic Church gets put down a lot, but it was all that could help

[brakelite]

So your doctrine and dogma is based on scripture? But the RCC isn't?

That is exactly right. Feel free to challenge me on any doctrine.

Mary's virginity cannot be perpetual because the scripture clearly states that Jesus was her 'firstborn' Son.
Mt 1:25 and did not know her till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.(YLT)

The Protestant understanding of baptism, and what I believe is also the Biblical one.
Baptism is a public declaration of a spiritual transformation already taken place in the life of the believer. A voluntary dying to this world and sin, and a resurrection to a new life in Christ. It is a re-enactment of the born again experience. This is an impossibility in an infant.
Romans 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As to the Eucharist. You claim to be a Protestant. Are you seriously suggesting that the RCC has this one right?

On another post you were mistaken. You claimed I said that there are no Bibles in Catholic churches, using that as an argument that my word is untrustworthy. I said no such thing. What I said was that in my experience as a Catholic (50 years ago) I saw no Bibles in a church or a school which I attended. This was a mere 50 odd years after the RCC officially forbid Bibles from the laity.
Over the years I have found this a common trait among Catholics and Catholic apologists. Whether intentional or no, there is a tendency to take someones discussion point and using only half of it and rendering it as a form of personal insult or false premise in order to gain the upper hand. An example of this is in your premise that the RCC destroyed Bibles, but only the ones that were of poor quality!!!????? I have serious misgivings over your claim to being a Protestant. Thus far all your arguments suggest the opposite.

 

[ScaliaFan]

RCC says, "Call them father." Jesus said, "Call no man 'father', you have but one Father, which is in heaven." I think it is clear that both the RCC and Jesus are meant to say "SPIRITUAL FATHER". In other words, the RCC says to refer to priests and the pope as our "SPIRITUAL FATHER", while Jesus plainly forbids this. Do we really need a magisterial counsel to understand Jesus' plain words?

you are going to Hell if you ever called your biological father "Father"

that's the logic of all that

 

[ScaliaFan]

That is exactly right.

So in your world, your interpretation of the Bible is to be followed, but the interpretation of a 2000-year old Church that 1.6 billion say is THE Church Christ founded is not...

you think a lot of yourself, don't you?

but then again, if you really cared about yourself, you would avail yourself of the Sacraments...

many saints have said that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. If anyone is saved who is not an official member of the Church, it is still b/c of the Church...Her influence in the world.. but Jesus said it is difficult getting to Heaven and there are few who make it... so why take a chance by being outside HIS sacramental Church?

makes no sense

 

[mjrhealth]

So in your world, your interpretation of the Bible is to be followed, but the interpretation of a 2000-year old Church that 1.6 billion say is THE Church Christ founded is not...

you think a lot of yourself, don't you?

but then again, if you really cared about yourself, you would avail yourself of the Sacraments...

many saints have said that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. If anyone is saved who is not an official member of the Church, it is still b/c of the Church...Her influence in the world.. but Jesus said it is difficult getting to Heaven and there are few who make it... so why take a chance by being outside HIS sacramental Church?

makes no sense

you still dont get it do you, youcome here forcing your "religion" upon us, and expect us to buy it, you talk about desiring the truth than you deny it when it is shown you because it doesnt fit the mould you have made, you consistently try get us to believe a lie about "your" church being teh one Christ founded, and expect us to believe you?? Yes you are rich broad is the path to destruction 1.6 billion catholics cant be wrong??? Sorry but salavation is in Chirst alone, nt in any chruch, here you go again twisting scripture to make you church seem so wonderfull??

If your chruch is so wonderfull, why dont you go to those men and women, even children of today that are consistently being abused by your church and tell tham how wonderfull it is,
when you have done that, why dont you go to those women who have had there babies ripped from thre stomachs by the Nuns in your covenants seimply because yor church doesnt like women having sex outside of marriage and tell them how wonderfull it is,

than of course there are the thousands on men women and children, even the Jews who are Gods chosen race who wher murered by you church in the name of God, never mind the thousnads of soldiers who where lied to and who died on teh battlefield thinking that they would be saved by killing people for the catholic church. But i shall leave it to those who cry out to God daily and who have His ear to bring it all into light.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

 

[Phoneman777]

you are going to Hell if you ever called your biological father "Father"

that's the logic of all that

Paul the apostle wrote under inspiration that Abraham was "the father of us all", which even a blind man can see refers to "father" in the biological sense. Therefore, your warning of damnation if we call dear ol' dad "father" is invalidated, just as the instructions of the RCC to call priests and pope "father" in the spiritual sense is invalidated by Christ Himself.

 

[brakelite]

So in your world, your interpretation of the Bible is to be followed, but the interpretation of a 2000-year old Church that 1.6 billion say is THE Church Christ founded is not...

you think a lot of yourself, don't you?

but then again, if you really cared about yourself, you would avail yourself of the Sacraments...

many saints have said that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. If anyone is saved who is not an official member of the Church, it is still b/c of the Church...Her influence in the world.. but Jesus said it is difficult getting to Heaven and there are few who make it... so why take a chance by being outside HIS sacramental Church?

makes no sense

At the end of a post adressed to Tom, I said: Over the years I have found this a common trait among Catholics and Catholic apologists. Whether intentional or no, there is a tendency to take someones discussion point and using only half of it and rendering it as a form of personal insult or false premise in order to gain the upper hand.
Unsurprisingly, you haven't let me down. While I did say that I follow the Bible, and the RCC does not, nowhere did I suggest, or even hint at, that anyone should follow me. You have turned my statement into a lie. My challenge to you is the same as mine to Tom. Test my theology...if my theology does not agree with the scriptures, then by all means do not accept what I teach.
On the other hand, if what I teach agrees with scripture and is contrary to RCC teaching, where does that leave you, and on what basis is your faith if you reject the Truth?

 

[Phoneman777]

At the end of a post adressed to Tom, I said: Over the years I have found this a common trait among Catholics and Catholic apologists. Whether intentional or no, there is a tendency to take someones discussion point and using only half of it and rendering it as a form of personal insult or false premise in order to gain the upper hand.
Unsurprisingly, you haven't let me down. While I did say that I follow the Bible, and the RCC does not, nowhere did I suggest, or even hint at, that anyone should follow me. You have turned my statement into a lie. My challenge to you is the same as mine to Tom. Test my theology...if my theology does not agree with the scriptures, then by all means do not accept what I teach.
On the other hand, if what I teach agrees with scripture and is contrary to RCC teaching, where does that leave you, and on what basis is your faith if you reject the Truth?

The fact that the Catholic "church" has 1.2 billion members should be evidence enough for anyone with even a casual understanding of the Scriptures to flee from it, seeing that Jesus said, "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be that go in thereat." Unfortunately, the widespread trust in the priest as "spiritual father" and wholesale ignorance of the Scriptures by those who rely on "papa" for salvation will be there undoing.

 

[tom55]

Don't be obtuse. You know full well that both Jesus and the RCC mean "father" in the "spiritual" sense, and not just the biological sense, which is perfectly acceptable. Either stop calling your priests or your pope "father" in the spiritual sense or stop calling yourself a follower of Christ.

So we are in agreement that we can call some men father. Good...we agree on that point.

So in Acts 7:2 how are we to take the "father Abraham" statement since Abraham was not Stephens father? Or when Paul called Isaac father in Romans 9:10?

 

[tom55]

That is exactly right. Feel free to challenge me on any doctrine.

Mary's virginity cannot be perpetual because the scripture clearly states that Jesus was her 'firstborn' Son.
Mt 1:25 and did not know her till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.(YLT)

The Protestant understanding of baptism, and what I believe is also the Biblical one.
Baptism is a public declaration of a spiritual transformation already taken place in the life of the believer. A voluntary dying to this world and sin, and a resurrection to a new life in Christ. It is a re-enactment of the born again experience. This is an impossibility in an infant.
Romans 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As to the Eucharist. You claim to be a Protestant. Are you seriously suggesting that the RCC has this one right?

On another post you were mistaken. You claimed I said that there are no Bibles in Catholic churches, using that as an argument that my word is untrustworthy. I said no such thing. What I said was that in my experience as a Catholic (50 years ago) I saw no Bibles in a church or a school which I attended. This was a mere 50 odd years after the RCC officially forbid Bibles from the laity.
Over the years I have found this a common trait among Catholics and Catholic apologists. Whether intentional or no, there is a tendency to take someones discussion point and using only half of it and rendering it as a form of personal insult or false premise in order to gain the upper hand. An example of this is in your premise that the RCC destroyed Bibles, but only the ones that were of poor quality!!!????? I have serious misgivings over your claim to being a Protestant. Thus far all your arguments suggest the opposite.

Obviously it would do no good to challenge you on any doctrine. You just made yourself the Pope and magisterium of your own church. You can't be wrong therefore it is a waste of time to dialogue with you about doctrine.

Here is another complete and utter lie which is historically inaccurate: "....the RCC officially forbid Bibles from the laity.

So if one is a historian of Christianity and they use facts of history to destroy your lies....they can't be a Protestant? They are secretly Catholic?

And if one cuts and paste from the Vatican website or the catechism online what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches/believes which is OPPOSITE of what you (or anyone on this forum) post on this forum then that means they are not a Protestant because they tell the truth?

I think I will stick with telling the truth and be kicked out of my Protestant Church. Actually here is the truth:

Since I have joined CB I have been forced to research all the attacks on the RCC by certain people. My research has lead me to take my Protestant glasses off and find the true history of the church which is Catholic to it's core. If you were to take the time and read what the Apostolic Fathers have written, what archeologist have discovered about the early Christians (1st and 2nd century), and what NON Christians (historical writings) have said about the early Christians you will see for yourself how Catholic the first Christians were in their beliefs and practices.

Based on my research of the last year or so I have decided to join the RCC and attend RCIA classes.

I thank people like you on this website who have forced me to research the truth. I have found the truth. I still have some trouble with a few things they teach but I completely understand why they teach it.

Respectfully....Tom

 

[mjrhealth]

You a protestant, never. ever since you joined this forum you came across as a catholic, seems to me you never really where a protestant, Never mind, doesnt matter if you are protesant, catholic. 7th day. JW, greek orthox etc etc, its all teh same abomination, Sad thing is in the end when we stand before Christ, and all teh religious cry out, "look at me God look at what I did". and all Jesus can say is", it because of what I did that you are here", than they will all realise the futility of it all and how theres lives where wasted on religion.

 

[tom55]

[SIZE=12pt]Here is a description of a gathering of Christians on Sunday around the year 152AD:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]On the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a given city or rural district. The memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read (scripture), as long as time permits. Then when the reader ceases, the president (priest) in a discourse admonishes and urges the imitation of these good things. Next we all rise together and send up prayers.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] When we cease from our prayer, bread is presented and wine and water. The president in the same manner sends up prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people sing out their assent, saying the 'Amen.' A distribution and participation of the elements (Eucharist) for which thanks have been given is made to each person, and to those who are not present they are sent by the deacons. Those who have means and are willing, each according to his own choice, gives what he wills, and what is collected is deposited with the president. He provides for the orphans and widows, those who are in need on[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]account of sickness or some other cause, those who are in bonds, strangers who are sojourning, and in a word he becomes the protector of all who are in need. And this food is called among us the Eucharist….it is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Sounds like the Catholic mas I attended several weeks ago. Notice how they read from the "memoirs of the apostles" which we now call The Bible. Notice how the president then gave a sermon. Bread and wine are presented and distributed. For those who are unable to be present at the church gathering deacons take the Eucharist to them. Everyone then contributes money for the orphans, widows and those in need. The Eucharist is described as the flesh and blood of Jesus. The first Christian gatherings were catholic masses of today.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]So Brakelite when you say 'based on your experience' they didn't have a bible in their churches that is just a way of saying prove my experience wrong. I can't prove your experience wrong. What I can prove is if I walk into any Catholic Church today OR 50 years ago I would have found a bible. As the above story shows that in the year 152AD the Catholic Church was reading from the bible and they still are today. I could go on and on how historical facts and logic prove you wrong....but I won't. Have you ever read the book that talks about the history of books? You should. Do some research and stop reading anti-Catholic literature. I ain't mad at you. I have read it all myself but I decided to start researching the claims instead of believing them. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]mjrhealth....[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]I have been praying for you. It makes me sad the anti-christian rhetoric you have been spewing onto your keyboard for all to read. I love you and I am concerned for your soul.[/SIZE]

 

[rockytopva]

My perspective is that the Catholic church is a Christian one that is also out of my faith congregation. I do not hate anybody, but am in hopes that any of the seven church congegations can get good things done in this day and time... My perspective on the churches...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22964-there-are-seven-church-congregations/?p=281467

 

[mjrhealth]

[SIZE=12pt]mjrhealth....[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]I have been praying for you. It makes me sad the anti-christian rhetoric[/SIZE]

For one I dont need your pyayers, I have a God and a saviour who are faithfull and true, and I have no need to rely upon men nor religion for my salvation. And where have I spoken against christianity, just religion, for it has undone all teh good works that Christ diid, steals His glory, treads His grace underfoot, makes slaves of men, and seperates them form the one and only one whao can save them. I have never and I can guarantee that God has never seeing anyone saved by there religion. You choose to become a catholic, and now you will talk, walk , act and sound just like a catholic, just as teh protestants sound like protestants, the Greek orthodox sound like greek orthodox etc etc, but so few put on Christ and walk talk act and sound just like Him. So when you call that pope Papa, just think of whom it is you replaced with a man, I hope you all the best, you are not alone. And dont think I dont know about catholism I was born and raised acatholic, thank God that He opened my eyes, for as it speaks of a dog returning to its own vomit, i wil not be going back.

 

[ScaliaFan]

The fact that the Catholic "church" has 1.2 billion members should be evidence enough for anyone with even a casual understanding of the Scriptures to flee from it, seeing that Jesus said, "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be that go in thereat." Unfortunately, the widespread trust in the priest as "spiritual father" and wholesale ignorance of the Scriptures by those who rely on "papa" for salvation will be there undoing.

geez, you anticatholics are so clueless...

massive ignorance

I dont know of one catholic who is like the caricature you people have... Looks to me like you get such a bizarre caricature of Catholics straight from the sin-infested murky recesses of your own twisted, projecting mind

 

[ScaliaFan]

For one I dont need your pyayers,

ha ha ha

you certainly need SOMETHING... (and of course prayer is one of the best somethings of all)

yeh, we read your nonsense and know just how deeply u need... something

 

[ScaliaFan]

At the end of a post adressed to Tom, I said: Over the years I have found this a common trait among Catholics and Catholic apologists. Whether intentional or no, there is a tendency to take someones discussion point and using only half of it and rendering it as a form of personal insult or false premise in order to gain the upper hand.
Unsurprisingly, you haven't let me down.

you people are blind to your own hypocricy, but you not only see it in others, you INVENT it where it does not exist... b/c of your hate, bigotry... (maybe i will read the rest of this post, maybe i won't... getting kinda tired of the anticatholic stuff)

you judge my motives. You judge my heart. You have no freaking clue about either... You are not my Judge...

I have no malice in anything i write here... If it comes across that way, i am truly sorry, but i only speak the truth as i know it... and i know plenty of truths--as a result of being Cahtolic--that you anticatholics have not half a clue about...

and that, whatever it may sound like... is the truth...

Truth does not always "sound" the way we would like.. but some conclude from that reality.. (that fact)... that... well, must not be truth, since it doesn't tickle my ears...

yeh.. whatever...

 

[brakelite]

you people are blind to your own hypocricy, but you not only see it in others, you INVENT it where it does not exist... b/c of your hate, bigotry... (maybe i will read the rest of this post, maybe i won't... getting kinda tired of the anticatholic stuff)

you judge my motives. You judge my heart. You have no freaking clue about either... You are not my Judge...

I have no malice in anything i write here... If it comes across that way, i am truly sorry, but i only speak the truth as i know it... and i know plenty of truths--as a result of being Cahtolic--that you anticatholics have not half a clue about...

and that, whatever it may sound like... is the truth...

Truth does not always "sound" the way we would like.. but some conclude from that reality.. (that fact)... that... well, must not be truth, since it doesn't tickle my ears...

yeh.. whatever...

Scalia fan...you are still not disappointing me. You continue to twist what I have said in order to gain the upper hand in the discussion...now in doing so you are claiming I am judging you???!!!! This little to and from between you and I began when you said...QUOTE>>>So in your world, your interpretation of the Bible is to be followed, but the interpretation of a 2000-year old Church that 1.6 billion say is THE Church Christ founded is not...

you think a lot of yourself, don't you?...... End quote....And you rebuke me for judging my motives????

A part of my original post was a clear declaration that I am not promoting myself as a paragon of TRUTH, by saying "do not follow me!" Follow the Bible. However, if what I speak of re theology IS Biblical, and is NOT RCC, where does that leave you?

 

[ScaliaFan]

you people are blind to your own hypocricy, but you not only see it in others, you INVENT it where it does not exist... b/c of your hate, bigotry... (maybe i will read the rest of this post, maybe i won't... getting kinda tired of the anticatholic stuff)

you judge my motives. You judge my heart. You have no freaking clue about either... You are not my Judge...

I have no malice in anything i write here... If it comes across that way, i am truly sorry, but i only speak the truth as i know it... and i know plenty of truths--as a result of being Cahtolic--that you anticatholics have not half a clue about...

and that, whatever it may sound like... is the truth...

Truth does not always "sound" the way we would like.. but some conclude from that reality.. (that fact)... that... well, must not be truth, since it doesn't tickle my ears...

yeh.. whatever...

 

[mjrhealth]

you people are blind to your own hypocricy, but you not only see it in others, you INVENT it where it does not exist... b/c of your hate, bigotry... (maybe i will read the rest of this post, maybe i won't... getting kinda tired of the anticatholic stuff)

Interesting words.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

I do not understand why you are mad at us, you are the one that came to impose your religion upon us, Christ has offered us all the true path

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But you have chosen another path. it is not His doing.

 

[tom55]

For one I dont need your pyayers, I have a God and a saviour who are faithfull and true, and I have no need to rely upon men nor religion for my salvation. And where have I spoken against christianity, just religion, for it has undone all teh good works that Christ diid, steals His glory, treads His grace underfoot, makes slaves of men, and seperates them form the one and only one whao can save them. I have never and I can guarantee that God has never seeing anyone saved by there religion. You choose to become a catholic, and now you will talk, walk , act and sound just like a catholic, just as teh protestants sound like protestants, the Greek orthodox sound like greek orthodox etc etc, but so few put on Christ and walk talk act and sound just like Him. So when you call that pope Papa, just think of whom it is you replaced with a man, I hope you all the best, you are not alone. And dont think I dont know about catholism I was born and raised acatholic, thank God that He opened my eyes, for as it speaks of a dog returning to its own vomit, i wil not be going back.

When you vomit onto your keyboard your personal interpretation of scripture (which is completely OPPOSITE of most Protestant let alone Catholic teachings) and you keep eating your own vomit (repeating your own folly) then you are the fool. By doing this you have made yourself your own Pope and magisterium but you are telling me I can't have my Pope and magisterium.

BTW...I will pray for you because scripture says we should pray for each other.

Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit is a fool who reverts to his folly.