The Catholic Church is a Christian Church

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Enoch111

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Here we go again!!:rolleyes:
When the eternal destiny of millions of souls is affected by a false gospel, there is no "here we go again". False Christianity is False Christianity, no matter how you sugar-coat it. There would have been no Reformation if this was not true.

So you need to make up your mind (as do any others). Is it OK to let a false gospel continue unabated, or is it better to warn the unwary that there is a false gospel (indeed many false gospels) floating around, and that the true Gospel is in the Bible?

GALATIANS 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

Helen

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When the eternal destiny of millions of souls is affected by a false gospel, there is no "here we go again". False Christianity is False Christianity, no matter how you sugar-coat it. There would have been no Reformation if this was not true.

So you need to make up your mind (as do any others). Is it OK to let a false gospel continue unabated, or is it better to warn the unwary that there is a false gospel (indeed many false gospels) floating around, and that the true Gospel is in the Bible?

GALATIANS 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Maybe so...but this thread is not the place for you to start arguing that point.
 
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Enoch111

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We have been examing Scripture through the light of the Holy Spirit, and the deposit of Faith, that was entrusted to us, for 2000 years.
Then tell us if you believe this Scripture wholeheartedly (Eph 2:8-10):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is justification by grace through faith + NOTHING.

This is what the Reformation was all about.
 

Enoch111

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Maybe so...but this thread is not the place for you to argue that point.
Really? The title of the thread is "The Catholic Church is a Christian Church".

But the truth of the matter is that that statement is FALSE. We are to encourage Catholics to leave the Catholic Church and all of its false doctrines and practices -- come out from among them and be separate.

Unless any church or any group preaches the true and full Gospel according to Scripture, it is NOT a Christian church. You could call it a pseudo-Christian church.

 
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brakelite

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.....another place for the anti-catholics to spam their repetitive addiction to put them down.

It has always been said that what we do and say in accusing others....
There is part of the problem. Why can you not differentiate between discussing doctrine and "judging others"? The Catholics on this board love to make out they are one and the same, I am surprised you are agreeing with them.
As for the RCC being a Christian church, I was in the midst of showing it was not...from both scripture and Catholic sources...but was stopped from pursuing that idea. I am not sure why...it wasn't personal against any individual, it wasn't abusive, it wasn't vindictive or nasty. Just a quest for truth. People were welcome to debate against it with proofs of their own they considered appropriate, but nothing was offered except criticism of me personally for bringing the subject up, and criticism of my sources.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Not that I am claiming to be infallible, God forbid. But I love truth as a principle in the life, and believe pursuing truth will prevent deception in these last days, deception which Jesus said would be rife. Truth can only come from discussion...open debate and free speech and expression...yet I also agree that personal attacks must be curtailed. It seems though sadly those whose penchant for abuse and ridicule have won the day in these discussions.
 

Helen

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There is part of the problem. Why can you not differentiate between discussing doctrine and "judging others"? The Catholics on this board love to make out they are one and the same, I am surprised you are agreeing with them.
As for the RCC being a Christian church, I was in the midst of showing it was not...from both scripture and Catholic sources...but was stopped from pursuing that idea. I am not sure why...it wasn't personal against any individual, it wasn't abusive, it wasn't vindictive or nasty. Just a quest for truth. People were welcome to debate against it with proofs of their own they considered appropriate, but nothing was offered except criticism of me personally for bringing the subject up, and criticism of my sources.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Not that I am claiming to be infallible, God forbid. But I love truth as a principle in the life, and believe pursuing truth will prevent deception in these last days, deception which Jesus said would be rife. Truth can only come from discussion...open debate and free speech and expression...yet I also agree that personal attacks must be curtailed. It seems though sadly those whose penchant for abuse and ridicule have won the day in these discussions.

You are quick to judge who is a Christian and who is not. Only God has the last word on that one.

I haven't read the rules of the forum on here lately, but I believe that is not allowed ..ie. for anyone to judge others and say that they are not Christians.

Your whole tone is often very judgemental whenever you write about the Catholics or speak to a Catholic in a post.

You used to join in with many other threads when you first came to the site.
You even used to be light hearted with APAK sometimes...
But now most of your posts seemed obsessed with Catholics.

Just my observation and concern for you.
 
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Helen

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@brakelite PS to my last post. You mention 'truth' .
Truth is Jesus Christ Himself.
Truth is not "whether the Catholics are right or wrong"...so no actually, you are not "sharing truth"
 
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brakelite

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You are quick to judge who is a Christian and who is not. Only God has the last word on that one.
You know that is not true. Not once have I inferred taught, explicitly or implicitly, that anyone is or is not a Christian. Nowhere on any post or thread have I said such a thing. But a church, as a Christian entity, is an entirely other matter. But even saying that the RCC is not a Christian church does not mean there are not within that communion genuine faithful Christians who live Jesus and live fully according to what light and understanding they have. There are Christians in every church...but not all churches are Christian. Even within the final antichrist apostate church/state tyranny of Babylon the Great, that evil composite of ecumenism and nations of the world that will soon engulf the planet in a bloodbath of self righteous persecution against the small remnant that resisted her mark of authority, there will be a number of God's own people, genuine Christians misled and deceived, whom He calls out that they do not become prey to her sins and become engulfed in her judgement. See Revelation 18:4,5.
As for my
tone is often very judgemental whenever you write about the Catholics or speak to a Catholic in a post.
I apologise to you, and anyone else who sees my posts in that light. None of my criticisms of Catholicism are intended as criticisms of individual Catholics. Jesus did not however ever tell us not to judge, but to judge with righteous judgement. To expose error with truth. That is my aim.
An example of unrighteous judgement I was revealing in a thread on the similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism in their agreement on the origins of the sacredness of Sunday. Historically Bible scholars and/or historians on both sides have agreed that no where in scripture is there a basis for Sunday observance. The unrighteous judgement of many is revealed when Protestants rail against Catholics holding to tradition above the Bible when they themselves cleave to Sunday sacredness which has only tradition as a basis for existence. A point made clear in a well known speech by an archbishop at the council of Trent, which speech silenced Luther and gave strength to the counter reformation. Thus we may judge, but without hypocrisy.
I am grateful for your concern regarding my plethora of posts on the subject of Catholicism. One must however be cognisant of the fact that in world politics and religion, Catholicism is making huge grounds, giant leaps forward toward gaining the worldly rule and power that she has long sought for. Such may not be apparent to very many on these forums, and such will most assuredly be denied by the Catholic faithful,but nevertheless, to those such as myself who study prophecy and perceive the links and parallels inherent in scripture and current events, the growing hegemony of the Vatican over the world is becoming more and more apparent. The warnings against such are inevitable, and I make no apologies for them.
 
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Helen

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You know that is not true. Not once have I inferred taught, explicitly or implicitly, that anyone is or is not a Christian. Nowhere on any post or thread have I said such a thing. But a church, as a Christian entity, is an entirely other matter. But even saying that the RCC is not a Christian church does not mean there are not within that communion genuine faithful Christians who live Jesus and live fully according to what light and understanding they have. There are Christians in every church...but not all churches are Christian. Even within the final antichrist apostate church/state tyranny of Babylon the Great, that evil composite of ecumenism and nations of the world that will soon engulf the planet in a bloodbath of self righteous persecution against the small remnant that resisted her mark of authority, there will be a number of God's own people, genuine Christians misled and deceived, whom He calls out that they do not become prey to her sins and become engulfed in her judgement. See Revelation 18:4,5.
As for my
I apologise to you, and anyone else who sees my posts in that light. None of my criticisms of Catholicism are intended as criticisms of individual Catholics. Jesus did not however ever tell us not to judge, but to judge with righteous judgement. To expose error with truth. That is my aim.
An example of unrighteous judgement I was revealing in a thread on the similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism in their agreement on the origins of the sacredness of Sunday. Historically Bible scholars and/or historians on both sides have agreed that no where in scripture is there a basis for Sunday observance. The unrighteous judgement of many is revealed when Protestants rail against Catholics holding to tradition above the Bible when they themselves cleave to Sunday sacredness which has only tradition as a basis for existence. A point made clear in a well known speech by an archbishop at the council of Trent, which speech silenced Luther and gave strength to the counter reformation. Thus we may judge, but without hypocrisy.
I am grateful for your concern regarding my plethora of posts on the subject of Catholicism. One must however be cognisant of the fact that in world politics and religion, Catholicism is making huge grounds, giant leaps forward toward gaining the worldly rule and power that she has long sought for. Such may not be apparent to very many on these forums, and such will most assuredly be denied by the Catholic faithful,but nevertheless, to those such as myself who study prophecy and perceive the links and parallels inherent in scripture and current events, the growing hegemony of the Vatican over the world is becoming more and more apparent. The warnings against such are inevitable, and I make no apologies for them.

Thanks for your detailed response.
I actually do worry about the length of time you and others give to posts so much about or against the Catholics. "To me" it is such a rabbit hole..and I feel that satan is well pleased at the distraction that so many seasoned christians give to it. While you are busy doing that, you aren't posting anything fruitful or worthwhile to advance his kingdom , uplift any one or encouraging any visiting readers etc. ( but that is just my view of it...I know you feel differently)
I also see the 'sins' of catholicism different than you. I don't see you posting numerous posts against the Church of England....yet it is no better than the catholic church. Crosses, candle, incense, mitres, pomp, compromised , full of empty bones...and 'all embracing' to boot.
Many churches are way off beam....that is why I haven't been to one for about a decade...
Where you most likely read " Come out of her my people" as referring to the RC , I read it as about all the established , polished, organized ,money making churches on every street corner. For me, out means out.
" God has reserved for Himself 7,000 ( not literal, obviously) hearts who have not bowed the knee to Baal. "

Where we do agree is where you say:-
There are Christians in every church...but not all churches are Christian. Even within the final antichrist apostate church/state tyranny of Babylon the Great, that evil composite of ecumenism and nations of the world that will soon engulf the planet in a bloodbath of self righteous persecution against the small remnant that resisted her mark of authority, there will be a number of God's own people, genuine Christians misled and deceived, whom He calls out that they do not become prey to her sins and become engulfed in her judgement.
Yes I totally agree.
Nice to know we agree on a few things :)
All I'll say is, please take care that you aren't getting blinkered vision.

Our God is an awesome God, still doing wonders and changing hearts..still preparing His Bride, still speaking hidden truths to those who get quiet enough before Him to hear His still, small, loving voice.

I wish you every blessing....Helen.
 
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epostle1

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So why don't you enlighten us as to which Catholic doctrines are according to Bible truth and which are not?
Why don't you enlighten us as to which Catholic doctrines are not directly or indirectly related to scripture. I don't think you can find any. Customs, devotions and disciplines are not doctrines. The reformation is another topic, and it wasn't as peachy as you think. The good thing about it is the Church reacted with reforms that made the cause of the reformation almost redundant. The bad thing was the intolerance and persecution, Protestants killing Protestants, the theft of churches, the destruction of 1000 years of Christian culture, etc., etc. But you don't like history, even if the historians are Protestant, because history is your enemy.

The Bible came from the Church, a church didn't come from the Bible. You are similar to telling practicing Jews they don't follow the Torah. The Bible was compiled by Catholic bishops, there were no Protestants in the 4th and 5th centuries. There were no Protestants in the early councils that clarified the Trinity, that was challenged by a string of heretics. What makes it impossible to discuss anything with fundie cults is they wrote their own history to justify their existence. If you want to talk about the "glorious" reformation, open a new thread.

As an analogy, consider the famous Betty Crocker Cook Book. You 'reform' it by throwing out the glossary, your dishes turn out awful, then you say Betty Crocker doesn't know anything about cooking.

Intense anti-Catholic bigotry is a mental illness, a disease, based on man made traditions.
 
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Enoch111

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Why don't you enlighten us as to which Catholic doctrines are not directly or indirectly related to scripture. I don't think you can find any.
Let's look at a key doctrine and you tell us where you find this in Scripture (chapter and verse):

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation
(CCC)
 

epostle1

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Let's look at a key doctrine and you tell us where you find this in Scripture (chapter and verse):

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation
(CCC)
That applies to Catholics, not Protestants, especially not anti-Catholics scouring the catechism looking for weapons. Ratt Slick butchers the catechism in the same way. We follow Jesus on His teaching on baptism, which is a sacrament. We accept Matrimony as a sacrament. All 7 sacraments are found in scripture, you just can't see them wearing blinders. If you understood what a sacrament is, you may not be making this silly challenge. Where in scripture does it say that a faith system must be based solely on the intellect, with no physicality whatsoever?
Sacraments aid us in our journey, from birth to death. Salvation is a life long process, not an inoculation against hell.

A catechism number by itself is meaningless. Please post the page the number is found on for context.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The paschal mistery in the Church's sacraments
 
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Helen

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< "Enoch111, post: 408252, member: 7853"]
So why don't you enlighten us as to which Catholic doctrines are according to Bible truth and which are not?>

@epostle1 Don't fall for it...you don't 'have' to prove or defend anything.

Just say amen to the thread Title!! :D
 

Enoch111

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That applies to Catholics, not Protestants, especially not anti-Catholics scouring the catechism looking for weapons.
Well since the RCC claims to be the one true church of Christ, its teaching should have universal application. After all the OP made the claim that the Catholic Church is a Christian church.

But as you can see, you could not provide a single Scripture to support that affirmation from the Catechism. And this is true for much of Catholic doctrine.
 

epostle1

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Well since the RCC claims to be the one true church of Christ, its teaching should have universal application. After all the OP made the claim that the Catholic Church is a Christian church.
The CC is the one true Church, and she also claims she is not the only church with truths. You would rather fight and argue otherwise.

But as you can see, you could not provide a single Scripture to support that affirmation from the Catechism. And this is true for much of Catholic doctrine.
What do you want? Scripture citations for each sacrament? Scripture citations for salvation? No amount of scripture will heal your blind prejudice, no answer will be good enough. You demand we abide by the sola scriptura principle applied to a few words taken out of context; a principle that is not found anywhere in the Bible. Yet you think we are supposed to go by your rules? Where in Scripture is Scripture ever used against the Church? Nowhere. You do it because it is a man made tradition. We are done here.


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B

brakelite

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Thanks for your detailed response.
I actually do worry about the length of time you and others give to posts so much about or against the Catholics. "To me" it is such a rabbit hole..and I feel that satan is well pleased at the distraction that so many seasoned christians give to it. While you are busy doing that, you aren't posting anything fruitful or worthwhile to advance his kingdom , uplift any one or encouraging any visiting readers etc. ( but that is just my view of it...I know you feel differently)
I also see the 'sins' of catholicism different than you. I don't see you posting numerous posts against the Church of England....yet it is no better than the catholic church. Crosses, candle, incense, mitres, pomp, compromised , full of empty bones...and 'all embracing' to boot.
Many churches are way off beam....that is why I haven't been to one for about a decade...
Where you most likely read " Come out of her my people" as referring to the RC , I read it as about all the established , polished, organized ,money making churches on every street corner. For me, out means out.
" God has reserved for Himself 7,000 ( not literal, obviously) hearts who have not bowed the knee to Baal. "

Where we do agree is where you say:-
There are Christians in every church...but not all churches are Christian. Even within the final antichrist apostate church/state tyranny of Babylon the Great, that evil composite of ecumenism and nations of the world that will soon engulf the planet in a bloodbath of self righteous persecution against the small remnant that resisted her mark of authority, there will be a number of God's own people, genuine Christians misled and deceived, whom He calls out that they do not become prey to her sins and become engulfed in her judgement.
Yes I totally agree.
Nice to know we agree on a few things :)
All I'll say is, please take care that you aren't getting blinkered vision.

Our God is an awesome God, still doing wonders and changing hearts..still preparing His Bride, still speaking hidden truths to those who get quiet enough before Him to hear His still, small, loving voice.

I wish you every blessing....Helen.
In an effort to bring a more balanced perspective, I offer the following.
Jesus Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Mathew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple...

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system including all the ceremonies, the sacrifices, and the law of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the law itself, because He was the lawgiver.

….38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here…


Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted the entire city of Nineveh of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

…42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

He claimed to be a greater priest than the current high priest of Israel, He claimed to be a greater prophet than Jonah, and He claimed to be a greater King than Solomon. In these three startling claims, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti– as in antichrist, according to Strong’s concordance, and like other words having the prefix ‘anti’, means at it’s most basic form “in the room of”, “instead of”, or “in the place of”.
In other words, ‘antichrist’ stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many claim the ‘antichrist’ will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a ‘son of perdition’ is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an open enemy, but a subtle traitor. And in a religious sense, a counterfeit. An impostor of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.

Does such an entity sound like one that we should come to terms with...tolerate...?
Or should we repudiate every teaching that does not harmonise completely with the word of God? With the Antichrist...the counterfeit...we must be careful. Because his teachings will appear to be in harmony with scripture, and he will most assuredly claim that are in harmony with scripture. Thus there is only one way by which to unmask this traitor. By close, intense, unfettered scrutiny. Anything short of that aids his deceptions. Anything short of that will continue to allow him to be unrecognised...unmasked...

Of course any individual, or institution that comes under such scrutiny should be readily able and willing to allow such tests to take place yes? In order to vindicate his claims to truth? Will he protest such scrutiny, or will he present clear and indisputable evidence that he does indeed believe that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word of God?
 
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Philip James

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Yet many claim the ‘antichrist’ will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?

Deceieved? The world will be hailing him as a hero and actively assist him in the persecution of the Church.
The Holocaust was just a warmup...