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The Church age and the rapture.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by rant, Nov 30, 2007.

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  1. Jonous

    Jonous New Member

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    This post was destined to have this outcome. The moment I read it I knew it would have an unhappy development. Basically it was rant's "fault", he shouldn't have started it. Rant you know I'm with you on this but I just want to say this, I've signed in this forum only a few days ago and already I've seen so many rapture-based controversies. One more was surely not needed. Sure you wanted to share some evidence that back up rapture, but think how much charged the environment in this forum already is . Afterall this is a forum that clearly states they don't want to hear this word nor this theory (not for us) in here. I think we should respect that.It would be best if this thread was locked, that's what I think. Else we are all bound to sin one way or another. [​IMG]
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This post was destined to have this outcome. The moment I read it I knew it would have an unhappy development. Basically it was rant's "fault", he shouldn't have started it. Rant you know I'm with you on this but I just want to say this, I've signed in this forum only a few days ago and already I've seen so many rapture-based controversies. One more was surely not needed. Sure you wanted to share some evidence that back up rapture, but think how much charged the environment in this forum already is . Afterall this is a forum that clearly states they don't want to hear this word nor this theory (not for us) in here. I think we should respect that.It would be best if this thread was locked, that's what I think. Else we are all bound to sin one way or another. [​IMG]
    Thankyou for your insightful post Jonous and your Christian respectful attitudeboth sides have made their points continus posts on arguing who's right and /or wrong is pointless
     
  3. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    A strong delusion forms from deceit and malice as Lucifer prepares for his damnation. The eyes of the saints are focused on those that twist the scripture for they form doctrine from what is not there. The shepherd leads the sheep to hope beyond hope, for he too is deceived. The leader speaks confusion to those who follow, and while he contends with lies, he allows the wolf entrance to the tabernacle. The rage of the wolf against those who hunted him consumes many, for this is the great falling away.Ready yourselves to enter the days of trouble, the week of tribulation. For we will not all sleep in him, but will live as he returns. This is the patience of the saints. We must wait on the Lord for he will call and we will rise, but that day is a week away, and into that week we will pass. Not all will hear the word of the Lord and will fall away as others are sifted from the harvest. The great falling away will precede the revelation of the one who would be king, the beast who charges man and the false prophet who calls the confused. The deception will take all that reject the word of the Lord. It is there within the words of his servants, who record the will of God as they serve to speak, knowing and having the mind of God. Look at it and understand. The Lord will return at the last trumpet, for there will be no [initial] second coming.The deceit is one lie and there are many, but it has not yet been revealed. The revelation will be offered only to those who hear when the week begins and the confused wail. “Were we mistaken?” they say as they fall away, “He is the messiah; he must be, for he is risen from the dead.” They are now witnesses for the deceiver and hosts worthy of the bowels of the void. For there they will not sing but wail. Look, he is fallen from the seat of authority and the throne of the earth and now wails with them. And the void gives way to the fire of eternal damnation where the workers of deceit endure eternity.____God saw you in the vineyard and a labor of love has brought you out.The grapes are never harvested by the watchmen, because the watchmen are charged and busy themselves chasing the Wolf. And in their labor to chase the beast from the vineyard, they find that when they look some grapes are no longer on the vine.There is a time when the grapes will be of no use, for the time of the harvest will have passed.When the harvesters arrive they are considered as beasts by the watchmen of the vineyard, and in their effort to fight the wolf, they find more grapes missing, but in the vineyard the watchmen remain.The watchmen hear of a wine press that is producing new wine from grapes that are crushed and know those very grapes were once in their vineyard on the vines they watch.But in their zeal to understand nothing else but their duty to watch, they miss the call to harvest and while chasing the harvesters, they allow the harvesters and the wolf to take some grapes, some taken by the wolf for the belly of the beast and some taken by the harvesters to the winepress for the marriage feast, all while chasing both the wolf and the harvesters.They never realized that being watchmen was not only to chase the wolf, but to watch for the harvesters. For chasing the wolf served only to protect the vineyard until the time of the harvest.___As a servant I must say that those who trust in the words of man will fall. The strong delusion is here and now and is working. You may argue that what the servants say is false. Look to Aaron and Miriam if you want confusion or to the followers of Moses and his God is you want truth.You may disregard what we have to say, but I would suggest, at the very least, test the words of the servants against those who came before us.The time is at hand. For those who may have trouble with what is written, let me explain.The strong delusion has many components, and it not only binds the foolish who love the world, but will also take those who have hope against hope. The so-called pre-trib rapture is a lie and is part and parcel to what will enslave those who cannot, for whatever reason, escape the lie that will bind those who look for it from the deception that will occur.When the man of sin rises you will not recognize him because of the assumption the end time saints will be gone. Your presumed time of escape is previous to the son of perditions rise or so you think. What if you find that the Tyrant reveals himself, and the servants identify him and your still here? Read the words of my brother John again when he revealed many things about our time and forget what you have been taught by those who find other reasons to hold you captive to their teaching. The gospel merchants are bound to what they do for the benefit of gain. I sell nothing, but give freely as I have received.
     
  4. Terral

    Terral New Member

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    Hi Jonous:
    Jonous >> This post was destined to have this outcome. The moment I read it I knew it would have an unhappy development. Basically it was rant's "fault", he shouldn't have started it. Rant you know I'm with you on this but I just want to say this, I've signed in this forum only a few days ago and already I've seen so many rapture-based controversies.
    I am brand new to this Bible Board and can already see a clear pattern of Admin/Mod dissatisfaction with member views expressed on this “Rapture” Topic, which to me seems a bit odd when compared to other Boards. After all, Christians disagree on practically everything from over 2000 different denominations and this Rapture topic affects our salvation in no way, shape or form. I certainly hope this group of moderators is not misusing their authority to boot members for simply disagreeing with their own preconceived notions about this Rapture Topic, because this “Prophecy & End Times Forum” is the proper place and venue for hashing out our differences using Scripture on this Bible Topic. 2 Timothy 2:15. If members are going to be trashed for simply having this topic dead wrong, then we may as well fold up the tent and head for higher secular ground IMHO. If your Rapture interpretations cannot withstand the test of meaningful debate, so that member post content must be micromanaged by obliterating certain people from existence, then perhaps the time has come to begin basing your Bible explanations on God’s Living Word. I have read many Rapture posts on this Board and many so-called explanations, but NOBODY here has this topic right, because ALL the professing prophecy experts have this topic DEAD WRONG. The Pre, Mid-Week and Post-Tribulation Rapture Theories are DEAD WRONG and have NO basis in Scripture whatsoever. None! I can understand why this topic has become a pet peeve to many people, but before you begin banning folks for having things wrong, then you should have things right yourself. Do we agree? After all, if you are banning those for whom Christ died for making mistakes in Bible interpretation AND have the same errors in ‘your theology,’ then you stand to suffer GREAT loss at the judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10), when your rewards shall be handed to others you mistreated in that process.
    Jonous >> One more was surely not needed. Sure you wanted to share some evidence that back up rapture, but think how much charged the environment in this forum already is.
    We definitely disagree. Member content to these threads should be determined by THE MEMBERSHIP granted that right by the Board Administrators under the auspices of the Moderators guaranteeing the rights of every registered member to make his or her own Topic choices. Every other registered member than has the same right to offer rebuttals and counterproposals using Scripture to support your own advocating or opposing views for the benefit of these readers presiding as our judges in all these debates. The fact that Rant or anyone else has things Dead Wrong is your opportunity to set things right by making your own case, which finds our readers in a ‘win/win’ situation of deciding if either side is approved (1 Corinthians 11:19) before God (2 Timothy 2:15) by rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Our debates are seasoned with the salt of controversy making the deliberation process that much more interesting and the outcome that much more important from the many different perspectives of the readers and judges.
    Jonous >> After all this is a forum that clearly states they don't want to hear this word nor this theory (not for us) in here. I think we should respect that. It would be best if this thread was locked, that's what I think. Else we are all bound to sin one way or another.
    We most certainly disagree. The evangelist, pastor and teacher (Ephesians 4:11) must write on the difficult topics for the benefit of those for whom Christ died, just like the easy and common topics where most people are in agreement. This ‘mystery’ Rapture topic is one of the most difficult of all to get right, which explains why so many professing Christians have things turned upside down and backwards. If I am supposed to avoid the difficult explanations, because the powers-that-be here want to micromanage the content of my work, then my time writing on this Board will be very brief indeed. :0) Please allow me to begin writing on this Rapture Topic by answering Rant’s Opening Post where we find error upon error, but no more than from anybody else . . .
    Rant >> The Church Age And The Rapture
    First of all, there is no such thing as any “Church Age” in your Bible anywhere. This is the contrived contraption of those calling themselves “Dispensationalists” with no basis in Scriptural reality whatsoever. We have been living through the same “Evil Age” (Galatians 1:4) since this creation was made formless and void back in Genesis 1:2, when ‘this darkness’ (Ephesians 6:12) fell and Satan’s unholy heavenly authorities assumed power. Anyone going on about a “Church Age” simply hasn’t the slightest clue about what he or she is talking about; as this represents a very large ‘tell’ that someone else has been watering your boots . . .
    Rant >> I would rather present this as further evidence for a Pre Trib Rapture of the Church. To show that there is plenty of Scriptural support for the Rapture of the Church coming before the Seven year Tribulation.
    ANY Rapture Theory connected to the “Great Tribulation” (Matthew 24:21 , Revelation 7:14) is DEAD WRONG. Period. This is the common mistake of all the Denominations and those blinded by the ‘deluding influence’ (2 Thessalonians 2:11) working in the ‘servants of righteousness’ (2 Corinthians 11:15) serving their “angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14). That does not mean everyone preaching this nonsense is of the devil, because many members of Christ’s body are simply deceived and do not know the difference. To get this difficult topic right you MUST learn the difference between “these things” (2 Peter 3:14-16) “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25) VERSUS the things connected directly to the fulfillment of PROPHECY. Jesus Christ is telling His disciples about the “END of the Age” (Matthew 24:3) events of PROPHECY, during His Matthew 24 Olivet Discourse, but Paul’s descriptions of ‘our’ Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) remained “hidden IN GOD” (Ephesians 3:9), just like EVERY OTHER aspect of “The Mystery” (Ephesians 3:3) revealed in the Pauline Epistles. Paul’s ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) revelations about our transformation to immortality have NOTHING whatsoever to do with anything mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24, because Paul is describing how the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” BEGINS, while Christ (Matthew 24) is describing how the same 1000 Year Period ENDS.[​IMG] Most of you have never seen this Rapture Topic explained correctly, so please pay careful attention to the events along the Mystery/Prophecy Timeline. Find “Today” directly under the “Body Rapture” that marks the “First Resurrection” that STARTS the 1000 Years Day of the Lord shaded in Light Blue over on the right. The professing Bible experts have merged the blood witness (Pauline Epistles) and the water witness (Kingdom Epistles) of your New Testament together and cannot currently see the forest for all the trees. We are currently living in a time more that 1000 Years ‘before’ the END of the Age where Christ returns (Matthew 24:30-31) over on the far right side of the diagram, as the area shaded in red (Dispensation of God’s grace = Ephesians 3:2) was NOT seen by any of the OT Prophets standing back in the OT looking over into the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Note how Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah and the others can see very well into the coming Day of the Lord, but they seen NOTHING within this 2000 Year Mystery Time of today. Jesus Christ’s Olivet Discourse reads right along with Zechariah 14 and Daniel 9-12 from what they ‘can’ see over in the blue “1000 Year Day of the Lord,” BUT our Rapture is a ‘mystery’ event seen by NONE OF THEM. Paul told the Thessalonians exactly what would happen when they met the Lord Jesus in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), but then writes,
    “Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the Day of the Lord WILL COME just like a thief in the night.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.
    Paul is NOT talking about how the END of the Age will come at all, but about how the 1000 Year Day of the Lord WILL COME or BEGIN. Jesus Christ could tell Peter and the disciples exactly how the Age WILL END in a long laundry list of events from Matthew 24. Right? The problem is that the Son of God had no clue about ‘when’ that 1000 Years Day of the Lord WILL BEGIN. If you do not know when a the big football game will BEGIN, then you cannot possibly count three hours to know when that event WILL END. Right? We are still living today in a Mystery Time when nobody knows the day or hour when that 1000 Years Day of the Lord WILL BEGIN, but that marks the time when our Rapture will take place. These Thessalonians became confused and frightened over the fact that the Day of the Lord had already STARTED, which created the need for Paul’s Second Epistles where he says,
    “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17], that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord HAS COME.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2.
    Now Paul actually uses the phrase “Day of Christ” here, but that is a reference to the same “Day of the Lord” COMING from 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, which tells you these phrases are indeed interchangeable. The grand mistake made by the professing Bible Commentary Experts is they fail to include the proper number of years within the “Day of the Lord” itself, which Peter proclaims is 1000 years!
    “But do not let this ONE FACT escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day . . . But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:8-10.
    The ‘Day of the Lord’ lasts 1000 Years, but the final END of the Age will see the heavens and earth pass away (Revelation 20:11). Paul gave you the biggest clue to solving this mystery in his statement about the “times and epochs” that escapes the notice of almost everyone. Paul just connected that “times and epochs” period to the Day of the Lord COMING and Christ fills in the blanks about a very important event taking place during the same period:
    “So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know TIMES OR EPOCHS which the Father has fixed by His own authority . . .”. Acts 1:6-7.
    Connect these dots to realize Paul’s ‘times and epochs’ BEGIN the period where the Kingdom is restored to Israel, as Elijah returns to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:10-11), as the prophet of Acts 3:19-26. That marks the time that the ‘Tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-18) is restored and rebuilt, but these Thessalonians had ‘NO NEED’ to have anything written about these things. Right? Do you understand the reason why? We (body of Christ) do not need Paul to teach us about Israel’s restored Kingdom, because we will see all of those things ‘from heaven’ AFTER our Rapture that starts the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. :0) Christ descends with a shout and what? Do you remember? He descends with the trumpet of God and the voice of the Archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) to bind Satan to ‘start’ the 1000 Years (Revelation 20:2 = Revelation 1:10). That right! Our mystery trumpet of God (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 = 1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounds off “behind” John in Revelation 1:10, so we appear before John as Christ’s brand new Body of Christ in Revelation 1:10-19. :0) All of you running to Revelation 6-7 to find our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) are BLIND to the truth that we are already “IN the Lamb” in the ‘center of the throne’ (Revelation 7:17) from all the way back in Revelation 1:10. By the time of the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21, Revelation 7:14), then those of us “IN Christ Jesus” have been IN Him for almost 1000 years. THAT is how we return with Him in glory:
    “Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed [Matthew 24:30-31], then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.” Colossians 3:1-4.
    Christ has just ‘one’ glorious return in Matthew 24:30-31 and we will return with Him in glory, AFTER ruling with Him in heaven for the 1000 Years. Satan is released only after the 1000 years is over, so that he, his Beast and False Prophet incarnate onto the world (Revelation 13) as mere men. The unholy trio mount the attack on David (Ezekiel 34:22-25) cut off as the Messiah (Daniel 9:26), so the “Son of Destruction” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) stands in the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15) to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13) some 1000 years AFTER our mystery Rapture. The world is NOT going to see Christ coming for His Mystery “Body of Christ” to start the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, but they will see all of us returning with Him in glory just about 1000 years later very near the END of the Age. This is ‘the answer’ to this very difficult Rapture Topic, whether you take the time to investigate everything for yourself or not. Those blinded by their Denominationalism will continue believing their Pre, Mid-week and Post-Tribulation Rapture Nonsense, but those of you really “IN Christ Jesus” now have the opportunity to begin ‘rightly dividing’ the word of truth and resolve this matter once and for all. God bless you all,In Christ Jesus,Terral
     
  5. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Hello Terral,I understand the moderators postions. (I personally do not involve myself in these futile debates). I have been on pro-pre-trib forums where post-trib discusion have been sequestered. I felf this was unfair, however, in retrospect I realize that this allowed those individuals the opportunity to compare notes without the possibility of being verbally harrased, as wrong as they were. I aplaude the rest of your post. Also, I have sent you a private message, I would like to compare notes.In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000 [email protected]
     
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