The Church and the State

[THE Gypsy]

What is your point?

That freedom of the press and speech is not being repressed, including but not limited to the church?

That the I.R.S. is, in and of itself, as an agency of the government - legal? Please quote constitutional law which justifies the income tax. I don't think you can, but go ahead and take a shot.

As I stated before, I think the church would be better off with no reliance upon tax breaks at all. It was established, grew and flourished without uS government tax breaks most of its history. It could do so again in this country.

You're changing the subject.

The "point" is...

You made the statements that...

Apparently there has been a sale on Rose-colored glasses, because a lot of folks aren't seeing political reality clearly. Neither do they want to openly acknowledge the repression that has descended upon us.

The Federal government is actively engaged in suppressing free speech - specifically within our churches.

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

The above is illegal according to the now obsolete uS Constitution, but that doesn't stop the IRS or any governmental henchmen from assuming that YOUR church is in violation. Stand up in the assembly of the saints and declare that such and such a politican or governmental policy is treasonous - and YOU and YOUR CHURCH can be prosecuted. FOR REAL BOYS AND GIRLS. Go back and read the statute again. I didn't make this garbage up.

INNOCENCE WILL NOT SAVE US. This is not some crazy half baked nightmare. It's a real living attack upon our religious liberty.

The following is from the web site of Homeland Security. It states the intended specific goals for governmental meddling with the practice of our religion.

* Develop policy and protocols for the engagement of faith-based and
community organizations in Departmental initiatives;
* Develop and coordinate Departmental outreach efforts to
disseminate information more effectively ...
* Provide opportunities for unaffiliated faith-based and
community organizations to formally engage in emergency
preparedness, response and recovery activities by building
strategic relationships with voluntary organizations active
in disasters and with state and local emergency management
professionals;
>>> * Co-sponsor joint training efforts with the Department
and other local, state and federal government entities
to build the capacity of faith-based and community
organizations to engage in Department-related
efforts. (Ibid)

Christians need to be TRAINED to cooperate with government?

We need to be TRAINED?

Are we now dogs that our government needs to TRAIN us in proper political behavior?

What will you do brothers and sisters? The above are quotes from government sources and which directly threaten our liberty.

There are but two alternatives; rise up and act or crawl into a dark corner eat worms and die.

WE MUST CHOOSE and no choosing IS a choice.

I asked you "How so"? Which you have yet to answer.

IOW...HOW is the "government suppressing free speech specifically within our churches" and HOW do you see the 501C3 law as being "illegal"?

 

[veteran]

You're changing the subject.

The "point" is...

You made the statements that...



I asked you "How so"? Which you have yet to answer.

IOW...HOW is the "government suppressing free speech specifically within our churches" and HOW do you see the 501C3 law as being "illegal"?

You don't understand what he quoted with that 501C3 tax exempt IRS policy?

Since the past few years, the IRS added a law that no Church or pastor was allowed to participate in campaigning for a political candidate, or they could lose their 501C tax-exempt status (which is what rjp quoted). By that pastors are not to propose a candidate in Church. (Yet religious institutions that support Socialist candidates HAVE done that very thing since that law started, even for Obama and Al Gore!).

In Canada, it's worse, for pastors have been jailed for preaching against homosexuality directly from The Bible. Pastors in the U.S. have been threatened by government officials for doing it too. This is a matter that real free press news sites like Worldnetdaily keeps up with.

Such IRS policies really are violations of the 'establishment' and 'free exercise' clauses of the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

When the IRS proposes a 501C tax-exempt status for a religious organization that receives donations, that really is a violation of the 'establishment' clause, which states that gov. shall not make any laws establishing religion, nor prevent the free expression thereof. The IRS claims they have authority to shut down a religious organization that refuses to file those funds under 501C tax-exempt status. With a private Church school in Indiana a few years, a school that was on Church property, and funded by that Church, the IRS seized that property because the Church paid member-teachers wages which was not filed as income to be taxed. So instead of penalizing individuals who failed to claim wages paid them by the Church as income, the IRS shut the whole Church, private school, and all down, and seized its property (see article on Worldnetdaily news).

The IRS tried to shut down Dr. Gene Scott years ago, a preacher (deceased) who ran a Church in L.A. which had a 24 hr. satellite network. That Church in downtown L.A. brought in a lot of money. But Scott could afford to pay lawyers to fight against 1st Amendment violation, and he won. Dr. Scott covered many, many subjects in his programming, with documentation that people would send in, and he'd read it during his programs. I'm sure lot of the info he uncovered got on the nerves of some high folks in the government. So they tried to use the IRS to shut him down. That was no big secret.


So what about non-profit NON-religious organizations? They can file for tax-exempt status too, which is specifically what FOUNDATIONS do. Yet those Foundations are not penalized for using their tax-exempt funds for Communist-Socialist activities which several of them were PROVEN to be involved in back in the 1950's Reese Committee investigations on tax-exempt foundations (see Rene Wormser's work documenting that in Foundations:Their Power and Influence).

 

[THE Gypsy]

You don't understand what he quoted with that 501C3 tax exempt IRS policy?

I "understand" it perfectly. Your rattling post is irrelevant. As I have already said THAT was NOT the issue I was addressing OR the question I asked.

You're doing the same thing...Changing the subject. You really need to take the time to read what has been said, get off your high horse, and realize that, contrary to your belief, there are indeed other people in the world that "understand" perfectly.

 

[veteran]

I "understand" it perfectly. Your rattling post is irrelevant. As I have already said THAT was NOT the issue I was addressing OR the question I asked.

You're doing the same thing...Changing the subject. You really need to take the time to read what has been said, get off your high horse, and realize that, contrary to your belief, there are indeed other people in the world that "understand" perfectly.

The only one here doing a bunch of idiotic "rattling" is you, with your purposed denial of how freedom of religion for Christianity is being attacked today, not only within Churches in the U.S., but in Churches among all the traditional western Christian nations.

So it's very obvious who here it is that cannot read; it's you! The following is not a bogus cut and paste rjp gave...

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

 

[THE Gypsy]

The only one here doing a bunch of idiotic "rattling" is you, with your purposed denial of how freedom of religion for Christianity is being attacked today, not only within Churches in the U.S., but in Churches among all the traditional western Christian nations.

So it's very obvious who here it is that cannot read; it's you! The following is not a bogus cut and paste rjp gave...

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

Please provide a quote where I denied the "freedom of religion for Christianity is being attacked today".

 

[Buzzfruit]

Hi all, this is a little topic poll to start a discussion... I won't post my answer right away, I just find when the 'poller' says right away where he's going, before even letting the dust settle, it makes it pointless to vote, so I'll leave it up to you first!

So the question is basically, should the state and the church work hand in hand? In which way?

Think of all the different ways the church has functioned in the last, say, 2000 years. Should it be...
-A union of Church and state as being one (a christian nation), as under constantine
-An organized collaboration, where the church has it's role within the government and is recognized by the government, as it often was of the Catholic church and European countries in the past
-Something else...

Poll and post away!

And may God bless you all!

The word in the Greek that is translated Church is ekklēsia and means, A calling out or called out ones. What are they called out of? The world's system and ways. The Bible says, two cannot walk unless they are in agreement. God's Church is the representative of God's government on the Earth. Is the government in agreement with God and what He stands for? What did Jesus say about serving two masters or what Paul said about being unequally yoked? Should the Church that was called out of this world's ways and system be rejoined back into the world and link itself to the government in which the Church has no way of knowing the real intentions of those in the government?

Satan is very cunning and more often than not cloak evil with good. It is very easy for a government with evil intention to use the Church as a way to hide or make the evil that they might do more effective by working with the Church. Whatever the Church does it should do it under its own name and banner and should not want or expect anything from the government.

 

[IanLC]

The church should birth leaders. The church is the educational institution of the kingdom of God. We hold the knowledge, word, wisdom and power of God in 1. Jesus the Christ and King of Kings, 2. The Holy Spirit,3. The Holy Bible. God works through the church to advance the kingdom of God. People should be trained personally and brought up in the faith so when they get older and decide to work in the world system they have those base, solid, and eternal Chrisitian values that will effect everything they do. Daniel is a prime example of God working through His word the Law of Moses at the time by training the young man Daniel so when He went into Babylon the world system He had a goldy and holy foundation and that effected every decision he made as an Administrator in the world system of Babylon. Legislation had to be changed to suit and fit Daniel because of the God given mantle and anointing placed on Daniel's life through the word of God. Kings, rulers, and other officials could not harm Daniel for He was God's agent in the world system advancing the kingdom of God. God wants some saved, sanctfied and Holy Spirit filled believers serving in the government to advance the kingdom of God (as in battle people). He also wants anointed peole to serve in the church to train other to serve on the battlefield the world system and advance the kingdom of God.

The Church
1. Trainig Ground of the Kingdom of God
2. Sanctuary of the Kingdom of God
3. Body of Christ
4. Salt & Light to the World
5. Consecrated and holy people

The Believers in the Battle Field (World System)
1. Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ
2. Enforce the will, plan, word of God
3. Live as holy examples to the world
4. Defend justice, holiness, righteousness, values, freedoms,etc.
5.Generals, Military Officials, and Soldiers for the Kingdom of God