The Church and the State

[Prentis]

Hi all, this is a little topic poll to start a discussion... I won't post my answer right away, I just find when the 'poller' says right away where he's going, before even letting the dust settle, it makes it pointless to vote, so I'll leave it up to you first!

So the question is basically, should the state and the church work hand in hand? In which way?

Think of all the different ways the church has functioned in the last, say, 2000 years. Should it be...
-A union of Church and state as being one (a christian nation), as under constantine
-An organized collaboration, where the church has it's role within the government and is recognized by the government, as it often was of the Catholic church and European countries in the past
-Something else...

Poll and post away!

And may God bless you all!

 

[aspen]

All we need to do is look at the history of Europe to see the horrors of Church over state; and look to the state interference in the Eastern Orthodox churches to see that the Church always suffer when it has too much power or too much interference.

 

[Prentis]

I agree with that. Meddling with the government puts you under it's power. There is then a conflict of interest, on the one hand, going against the government will cause the church to lose all it's political power, on the other hand, agreeing with the government would require agreeing with injustice, dishonesty, a lie, etc...

 

[Hiroki]

It depends of what we mean church. If we mean a church that is not smart in moral laws of God, we don't need it. Since there are many religion, Christianity is not the only option for the government officials. Since in Middle East, some are Islamic government but doesn't promote peace like today.

In this case, we may be subjective by saying that Christian church must be working together with the government. But the good question is if the the government can promote peace in economics and lessen the crime. That may sound good but a thought came to my mind about the 666 one and Daniel's prophecy. Anyway what I can say is that the most reasonable religion that can promote peace is the best. For me it is Christianity. God bless

 

[rockytopva]

It depends of what we mean church.

Hopefully not a mean church! Haha!

 

[Hiroki]

Haha. I know a church which is very mean. Every time I talk to that church, it doesn't respond to me.

 

[HammerStone]

I'd say the Christian ideal based on the Bible is where:

The Church (corporate body) exists as its own entity distinct from the government. However, at the same time, the church is free to act within the government (IE: the church can go into schools, can be present at places, etc.) but the church does not make the government nor does the government make the church. For a number of years we did a reasonable job of that here in the US. For instance, the government would let the church use public buildings to meet, evengelize, etc. The government didn't force anyone to go to this or be Christian. (The wall of seperation referred to by Jefferson comes to mind.)

Unfortunately, we're slowing beginning to trend to a state where the government makes the rules for the church. We're not to a dangerous time in regards to that, but freedoms have quiet been slipping away as the anology of the wall becomes 1-D instead of us realizing that a wall is often to used to keep things separate on both sides.

 

[aspen]

I'd say the Christian ideal based on the Bible is where:

The Church (corporate body) exists as its own entity distinct from the government. However, at the same time, the church is free to act within the government (IE: the church can go into schools, can be present at places, etc.) but the church does not make the government nor does the government make the church. For a number of years we did a reasonable job of that here in the US. For instance, the government would let the church use public buildings to meet, evengelize, etc. The government didn't force anyone to go to this or be Christian. (The wall of seperation referred to by Jefferson comes to mind.)

Unfortunately, we're slowing beginning to trend to a state where the government makes the rules for the church. We're not to a dangerous time in regards to that, but freedoms have quiet been slipping away as the anology of the wall becomes 1-D instead of us realizing that a wall is often to used to keep things separate on both sides.

I agree with this ideal - the church should not be restricted by the government, However, I do not believe our current problem with government restriction on Christianity is really a problem with our government. I think the problem is our multicultural society - it was easy for the government to work with Christianity in the past because it was the only church.....now we are faced with so many competing churches that the government has decided it is easier to restrict everyone than it is to accommodate everyone. It is interesting to me watching Christians reacting negatively to be restricted, but offering no ideas for accommodation of all religions present in American,today.

 

[rockytopva]

Haha. I know a church which is very mean. Every time I talk to that church, it doesn't respond to me.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. - John 13:35

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. - John 15:12

Remember that our Gods spiritual E (love, warmth, motivation) / c2 (faith, hope, charity) will remain alive forever... Even though it may ebb away here on planet Earth! :lol:

 

[Prentis]

Should the church then be a sort of 'co-worker' with the state? :huh:

 

[veteran]

I assume we're speaking of western Christian nations with this. The U.S. is established differently than many of the European nations that have kings and queens as heads of Christ's Church there.

There is NO 'separation of Church and state' clause in the U.S. Constitution. Instead, the founders included a personal moral foundation in the Constitution involving 'religion', with each person having the right to worship or not. The state is to make no law establishing religion, which is to prevent the U.S. from becoming a Theocracy. At the same time, the state is NOT to prohibit the free expression of religion. All that per the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

In European countries the Church and State have worked together traditionally. In the U.S. we have ministers that traditionally perform various religious duties within state functions, like prayer before Congress, the Senate, swearing of oaths at inaugurations, etc. The U.S. Supreme Court building has images of Moses with tablets of The Ten Commandments, representing the U.S. justice system's moral responsibility to God. The removal of that representation has involved 'lawyers' that follow an anti-religious agenda violating the 1st Amendment of the majority of people who do... want that moral representation within traditional state functions.

 

[lawrance]

I would look at it from the point of view of why do people want the Church kicked out of government.
Anything that is not done in Christ is in vane.
Is it because the gov want to change laws to suit themselves, if so we the people are then going to become just slaves then are we not.
We had a good thing going building people and nations up but now due to corruption and criminal intent and a dim wit low life stupid foolish people we are doomed to come ass up mainly because people think they are so smart now days they think everything will be fine, the poor deluded people are so ignorant and blind.

I liken it to someone that does not have a licence and thinks that they can do what ever they want.

The law has not been done away with.

 

[Prentis]

I think we don't understand what we're getting into when we start mixing church and state. The church working with the state, becoming one with the state, receiving political authority is the very thing that perverts the revelation of Christ.

How can we take the power of Christ, and mix it with mammon (money), hierarchy (when Jesus says 'it shall not be so among you'), and expect it to remain pure?

Think about it this way... How much involvment did Jesus have with the politics of his time? How much did he try to change them?

Or did he just do something completely new and detached of government?

Somehow we think that the good we accomplish by political means has any effect. Yet Christ destroys that idea. One of the things that makes the gospel of Jesus scandalous is that he says the poor will always be among you. No, you can't fix that! Should you love them? Yes. But FIRST follow him (he does say that!) We think we can fix things permanently by human power! The very scandal of the gospel is that it says 'no, you can't.'

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I think as far as religion goes, and religion being serving the poor, and helping the homeless and the widow, disaster relief, etc. I think the church and the government can work together. As far as justice being carried out, from the church comes the values from which government should be founded, and from the values, principles and rules are set to govern us and give us a standard by which to live. When there is a contrast between the values of either, persecution is bound to arise. It is never perfect, but that is what we have until we get Christ as our eternal ruler.

I think both extremes, when church and government work together in unison, and when they are estranged are both dangerous. When they work together too closely, the values and standards are easily corrupted, and when they don't work together at all is when persecution arises. That's why I voted #2.

 

[Prentis]

Do not put your trust in men, says Jesus. Do not seek your approval from men. We make sure our churches are government approved organizations.

[sup]25[/sup] But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. [sup]26[/sup] Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. [sup]27[/sup] And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— [sup]28[/sup] just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

How is it in the institution? The great control the way things work and the crowd.

Submit yourselves unto one another, instructs Paul. Submit to the Pastor's authority, says modern Christianity.

Are the contradictions between the message of Christ and what most of modern Christianity is doing not obvious?

I think as far as religion goes, and religion being serving the poor, and helping the homeless and the widow, disaster relief, etc. I think the church and the government can work together. As far as justice being carried out, from the church comes the values from which government should be founded, and from the values, principles and rules are set to govern us and give us a standard by which to live. When there is a contrast between the values of either, persecution is bound to arise. It is never perfect, but that is what we have until we get Christ as our eternal ruler.

I think both extremes, when church and government work together in unison, and when they are estranged are both dangerous. When they work together too closely, the values and standards are easily corrupted, and when they don't work together at all is when persecution arises. That's why I voted #2.

Christ says if they hated me they will hate you.

We can have no part with Christ unless we are like Him. Do you think that they hated him, and if you are truly of him, they will somehow love you?

Jesus tells us if we are His we WILL suffer persecution. We shouldn't be afraid of persecution, seeing we aren't persecuted should bring us to question whether or not we really are shining a light on the sons of darkness, who indeed would hate us if we did.

 

[Prentis]

Jesus did not associate with any government or anything. As he said, his kingdom is NOT of this world.

Do we obey the government. Yes. Until they directly ask us to go against what God tells us to do. Then we simply carry on with the work of God, and let them kill us if they want.

Working with the government wont get any man stoned like Stephen or crucified upside down like Peter. Exposing the hypocrisy of the powers and principalities that rule on this earth on the other hand, will. Wise is the man who brings down the pride and lofty thoughts of men.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Ya, Jesus' mission wasn't to rattle the man-centered governmental authority directly, but to establish his kingdom in our hearts, which ends up rattling governments anyway. There was a time though when Ancient Israel, and even America in its early times worked as nations devoted to God to share the light of promised salvation in Christ with the world and was blessed for it. There is a time for peace and a time for war, and as far as us Christians go, it seems like its time to put on our persecution hats here in America, as our values and those of the authorities placed over us grow further and further apart.

Not every nation experiences governmental persecution all the time. That being said, we all share our brothers' persecution in Christ no matter where it is being experienced, just as a toe gets cut and sends nerve signals to the brain, and the brain sends pain response signals to the body, so it is with the body of Christ, and Christ is our head who experiences and shares all of our pain.

 

[veteran]

We have responsibilities as citizens in the nations we live in.

When the Jews wanted to murder Apostle Paul, he used the laws of Rome involving his citizenship as a Roman.

So, only someone that is deceived would not be interested in the laws of the nation they live under.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

For sure I think with todays technology and medical advances a good christian king could create a wonderful exciting country to live in.

 

[Prentis]

Wonderful. Exciting. Of this world.

When human, natural things amaze us, we should wonder through whos eyes we are looking at them. The way of the Lord is by the Spirit, and we are not to walk as friends of this world.