THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

[BreadOfLife]

To say Jesus was saying that the church of God that Paul persecuted was members of his body is not substantiated.....Jesus was saying what he was saying in Matthew 25:40......plus the body of Christ is one new man where there is neither Jew or Gentile, not revealed before Acts 9.

And yet is was PETER who instructed and baptized the first Gentile (Cornelius) - and NOT Paul.

YOUR idea that the Church started with Paul is Scripturally-Bankrupt.
It began at Pentecost in Acts 2.

 

[FHII]

In John chapter 1 Jesus is identified as the lamb that would take away the sins of Israel. This was the beginning of the church of God, but it is not the body of Christ.
The body of Christ has the promise in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), revealed was one new man where there is neither Jew or Gentile.
The church of God still had separation of Jew and Gentile, and was promised the earthly kingdom.

Like the thought, but disagree with the conclusion.

In the OT there isn't much talk of a kingdom of heaven or much about an afterlife. (If I am am mistaken, let me know). Jesus preached heavily about such a kingdom. No doubt, the Jews were looking for one on Earth. They were expecting a military general, not a Redeemer of the spirit.

Jesus never promised them an earthly kingdom. He was offering more. Now there are those that say they will get it, and I believe they will eventually. That's another matter, however.

But Jesus was preaching a heavenly Kingdom to the Jews first.

 

[FHII]

And yet is was PETER who instructed and baptized the first Gentile (Cornelius) - and NOT Paul.

YOUR idea that the Church started with Paul is Scripturally-Bankrupt.
It began at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Paul was declared as the apostle to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews. Gal 2:8. Yet, you are correct about Cornelius, and Paul had more than a few Jews under his ministry.

For what it's worth, let's not forget the other Apostles... Judging where it's reported they went, they did so to gentiles as well... Unless there were Jews in Armenia, Etheopia and India.

Paul's message was tailored to the gentiles and Peter's to the Jews. They bickered and disagreed, but in the end it came to the same point.

 

[Doug]

Like the thought, but disagree with the conclusion.

In the OT there isn't much talk of a kingdom of heaven or much about an afterlife. (If I am am mistaken, let me know). Jesus preached heavily about such a kingdom. No doubt, the Jews were looking for one on Earth. They were expecting a military general, not a Redeemer of the spirit.

Jesus never promised them an earthly kingdom. He was offering more. Now there are those that say they will get it, and I believe they will eventually. That's another matter, however.

But Jesus was preaching a heavenly Kingdom to the Jews first.

Here is just one example of the OT speaking of the kingdom:
Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Doug]

Like the thought, but disagree with the conclusion.

In the OT there isn't much talk of a kingdom of heaven or much about an afterlife. (If I am am mistaken, let me know). Jesus preached heavily about such a kingdom. No doubt, the Jews were looking for one on Earth. They were expecting a military general, not a Redeemer of the spirit.

Jesus never promised them an earthly kingdom. He was offering more. Now there are those that say they will get it, and I believe they will eventually. That's another matter, however.

But Jesus was preaching a heavenly Kingdom to the Jews first.

Jesus never promised them an earthly kingdom

Luke
22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Paul was declared as the apostle to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews. Gal 2:8. Yet, you are correct about Cornelius, and Paul had more than a few Jews under his ministry.

For what it's worth, let's not forget the other Apostles... Judging where it's reported they went, they did so to gentiles as well... Unless there were Jews in Armenia, Etheopia and India.

Paul's message was tailored to the gentiles and Peter's to the Jews. They bickered and disagreed, but in the end it came to the same point.

Agreed.

My point is that @Doug is wrong to say that Paul "started" the Church - simply because he referred to it as the "Body of Christ".
It was born at Pentecost.

 

[FHII]

Here is just one example of the OT speaking of the kingdom:
Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Is this a heavenly Kingdom or an earthly one?

 

[FHII]

It was born at Pentecost.

It's not something I will debate too much, but I would put the Church starting when he called his first two disciples in John 1. Certainly at Pentecost it took a dramatic step, but I was wondering what you would disagree with me about John 1:37?

 

[Huperetes]

Actually the church started wayyyyy back. It actually started with Israel in the wilderness:
Ac 7:37-38 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
I am sure the dispensational view defines the "church" as gentile believers. This is a common error disproven by the fact that we gentiles are only grafted into an inheritance promised to the Jews:
Eph 2:12-16
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[farouk]

Actually the church started wayyyyy back. It actually started with Israel in the wilderness:
Ac 7:37-38 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
I am sure the dispensational view defines the "church" as gentile believers. This is a common error disproven by the fact that we gentiles are only grafted into an inheritance promised to the Jews:
Eph 2:12-16
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Did the Holy Spirit really come in indwell in the wilderness as He indeed did at Pentecost? The Old Testament saints were justified by faith (Hebrews 11); the chapter goes on to indicate that they were not the church with fulness of revelation and privilege in the sense that we now have.

 

[Huperetes]

Did the Holy Spirit really come in indwell in the wilderness as He indeed did at Pentecost? The Old Testament saints were justified by faith (Hebrews 11); the chapter goes on to indicate that they were not the church with fulness of revelation and privilege in the sense that we now have.

You are making a separation and a distinction that doesn't exist. An infant cannot drive a car but that doesn't make it any less a person even though it doesn't have that privilege. It simply hasn't come to it's full measure yet. The scripture states that they will come to completion once we are joined.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This of course means that we are of the same body "Eph 2:15 for to make in himself of the two one new man"

 

[farouk]

You are making a separation and a distinction that doesn't exist. An infant cannot drive a car but that doesn't make it any less a person even though it doesn't have that privilege. It simply hasn't come to it's full measure yet. The scripture states that they will come to completion once we are joined.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This of course means that we are of the same body "Eph 2:15 for to make in himself of the two one new man"

...but in the OT it hadn't happened yet...

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God...

 

[justbyfaith]

Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen in verse 6, is speaking in the hearers language.

It can also be an unknown language according to 1 Corinthians 14:2.

The church here is not the body of Christ.

The church is defined as the body of Christ in Colossians 1:18. And the word of the Lord is also timeless.

The church here are the believers in Christ

Yes, those who believe in Christ are those who consist His body.

This is something that born again members of the church - synonymously - do not need to pray; because at Pentecost the Spirit came to indwell.

Also to seal the believer unto the day of redemption.

To say Jesus was saying that the church of God that Paul persecuted was members of his body is not substantiated

Actually, @BreadOfLife substantiated it quite nicely.

The middle wall done away was only revealed in the church, the body of Christ, by Paul.

At the risk of repeating what has already been said, the transition in which Gentiles became included happened when Peter preached to Cornelius and friends.

 

[Huperetes]

...but in the OT it hadn't happened yet...

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God...

But the foundation was laid:
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[farouk]

But the foundation was laid:
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I have a hard job believing that Old Testament prophets with bushy beards were preaching in all its revelatory fullness the Gospel content of what the Apostles in the newly founded church preached.

(We probably won't agree on this one...)

 

[Enoch111]

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

This one verse TOTALLY REFUTES your false teaching.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's not something I will debate too much, but I would put the Church starting when he called his first two disciples in John 1. Certainly at Pentecost it took a dramatic step, but I was wondering what you would disagree with me about John 1:37?

Well, you could say that the Church started when Jesus began gathering His disciples.

Somebody also said that the Church started with Israel in the OT. Somebody else might say that it ALL began with Adam and Eve.
But, to be precise - the Church was born at Pentecost because that was when it was officially "inaugurated". I don't disagree that the Church was being built starting with John 1:37 - but it hadn't yet come to fruition.

Christ was building the Church during His mission - but it was sealed with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[Doug]

Is this a heavenly Kingdom or an earthly one?

This is the kingdom of heaven come down to the earth, Christ will reign from Jerusalem.

 

[Doug]

This one verse TOTALLY REFUTES your false teaching.

There was a church before the body of Christ was revealed to Paul, and Paul persecuted it, this church that was being added to in Acts 2:47 is the church of the believing remnant of Israel that believed the gospel of the kingdom, and on the name of Jesus....they will enter the kingdom on earth promised them.

 

[justbyfaith]

There was a church before the body of Christ was revealed to Paul, and Paul persecuted it, this church that was being added to in Acts 2:47 is the church of the believing remnant of Israel that believed the gospel of the kingdom, and on the name of Jesus....they will enter the kingdom on earth promised them.

Are you saying that they won't go to heaven? But that they will be raised to live on earth when Jesus reigns?

I would say to this that those who are raised in the first resurrection shall not be hurt of the second death.

So if the choice for eternity is heaven or the lake of fire, their destination will either be heaven or else the lake of fire will be like heaven for them.