The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

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Phoneman777

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Surely you jest. My Bible doesn't say the "papacy" is Antichrist. You're still slinging words around. First you say your ideas are backed up by the Bible. Then your next statement is your ideas are from the Protestant reformers. Which is it?

As for the "great Protestant Reformers" being willing to die? Oh dear, they were also willing to kill. Perhaps their Bibles at the time didn't contain this, or maybe they read it and forgot about it:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

How many millions of people died in the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants after Protestants gave up trying to resolve things peacefully and rebelled? Both Catholics and Protestants forgot that God's kingdom is not established by the sword through violence. Both forgot the Golden Rule. If you want religious freedom, you should be willing to grant it to others.
What I think we can both agree on is that there would have been no bloodshed at all if religious liberty were allowed to prevail...worshiping God according to the dictates of one's own conscience is a heavenly principle, not a human.
 

aspen

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Hey I was told there was a thread on the board where Catholics and SDAs fight all day and night about nothing.....is this place?
 
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Phoneman777

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Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
All scholars agree that this verse is referring to a SATURDAY NIGHT POST-SABBATH gathering, not a Sunday morning service.

They came together on the first day of the week, but which part of the day? The DARK part, which precedes the light part (and the evening and the morning were the first day..."). A Biblical day begins and ends at sunset, so at sunset when the Sabbath was over and the first day had begun, the people came together with candles to burn in the chamber and Paul preached way past Euticus' bedtime, which is why he fell asleep and fell out the window...and if you keep reading, the text says when the day broke (which would be Sunday morning when we'd expect a church service to be held if Sunday was indeed authorized by God) Paul departed on a long foot journey.
 

Giuliano

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All scholars agree that this verse is referring to a SATURDAY NIGHT POST-SABBATH gathering, not a Sunday morning service.

They came together on the first day of the week, but which part of the day? The DARK part, which precedes the light part (and the evening and the morning were the first day..."). A Biblical day begins and ends at sunset, so at sunset when the Sabbath was over and the first day had begun, the people came together with candles to burn in the chamber and Paul preached way past Euticus' bedtime, which is why he fell asleep and fell out the window...and if you keep reading, the text says when the day broke (which would be Sunday morning when we'd expect a church service to be held if Sunday was indeed authorized by God) Paul departed on a long foot journey.
You are right. A common practice was to break their fast after the sun set. That seems pretty clear from the passage you cite from Acts. It is not stated explicitly, but it looks to me as if Paul did not want to start out on a journey on the Sabbath. At any rate, he didn't. Starting at night wouldn't be advisable either. There was no required observance of Sunday then or of the Sabbath either from what I can see.

The mistake the early church made, in my opinion, was decreeing Sunday to be an official mandatory observance after Paul said there should be no such mandatory rule. Then when Easter was observed also became a matter of controversy. Missionaries in early times followed John's way of dating it --using the day before Passover as the date for the crucifixion. John's Gospel clearly indicates that was the case. The other Gospels seem to contradict that. at any rate, the two competing dates for Easter wasn't settled in England until AD 664 when they adopted the Roman church's dating system in order to have unity.

Synod of Whitby - Wikipedia

One of the main differences between the two traditions, and hence a source of controversy, was the proper calculation of Easter. Early Christians had probably originally celebrated Easter concurrent with the Jewish Passover (see Passover, Christian holiday), which was held on the fourteenth day of the first lunar month of the Jewish year, called Nisan, the day of the crucifixion according to John 19:14. However, the First Council of Nicaea in 325 decreed that Christians should no longer use the Jewish calendar but universally adopt the practice of celebrating it on a Sunday, the day of the resurrection, as had come to be the custom in Rome and Alexandria.[5] Calculating the proper date (computus) was a complex process (involving a lunisolar calendar), and different calculation tables developed which resulted in different dates for the celebration of Easter.

It was supposed to be settled at Nicea; but somehow people in England didn't get the message -- or if they did, they didn't take it too seriously.

Mind now, this idea of Jesus being resurrected on the first day of the week at sunrise is not explicitly to be found in the Bible. On the contrary, John tells us Jesus was already resurrected before day dawned.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Mark's version can be either way, depending on where you put the punctuation which doesn't exist in the Greek originals. Let me put the comma in another place.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

People who liked Sunday wanted to read it the first way. That can't be right in my view since it contradicts John. My opinion is he entered the eternal rest of the Sabbath on Saturday shortly before sundown. He then appeared in the morning of the first day, just as light appeared in Genesis. I also take "three days and three nights" for what it says. He was buried just before sundown, was in the earth for 72 days and came out just before sundown -- on the Sabbath. That would mean he was crucified on a Wednesday and was "out of sight" for three and a half days. That compares to the pattern seen in Revelation fairly well:

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

I know I could be mistaken about that, but it is clear to me he was not resurrected at sunrise on a Sunday. Mary got there when it was still dark and he was already not in the tomb. I really don't understand Easter sunrise services. I was out driving once on an Easter morning and passed a church holding a sunrise service. I was tempted to go tell them,"He is not here, but is risen." Then I figured if they wanted to face the rising sun, perhaps it was relatively harmless as long as they believed in the resurrection and were honoring Jesus. They were doing what they thought right, so why interrupt them? Who's perfect? I'm not. If I have wrong ideas, I hope God forgives me -- so I must forgive others if I think they have wrong ideas. The problem I see is how the early Church made a decision about Sunday and Easter and then insisted everyone else had to agree or else in defiance of what Paul said about how some esteem one day, others another, and some none. Such things should not lead to persecution and accusations of heresy in my opinion.

Let every man decide how he wishes to be judged. If I believe God is going to punish someone for observing the wrong day when he is mistaken, not knowing the truth but believing he's right, then I may be punished if I have a wrong idea even if I sincerely think it's right.

If I am willing to forgive others for having ideas I think are wrong, I hope God judges me the way I judged them and forgives me if I am wrong without knowing it.
 
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Philip James

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If I am willing to forgive others for having ideas I think are wrong, I hope God judges me the way I judged them and forgives me if I am wrong without knowing it.

Well said. Jesus Christ is the judge of all of us, and who can do aught but HOPE in HIS mercy!

To Him be all Glory and Honour, forever and ever.
 
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brakelite

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OH.
Well, I don't understand and this is prolly why I don't like end time stuff...
or for NOW strange stuff about the anti-Christ.
As I see it there are MANY anti-Christs.
Do you know what the word Antichrist means, and what the philosophy behind it stands for GG? I
 
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brakelite

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I write what The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, teaches. If the pillar and foundation of truth teaches it then it is....the Truth.

You see yourself as the pillar and foundation of truth therefore you believe YOU.....:(
What if the church splits into two or three or more disparate groups, which one then is the pillar and foundation? Or if the original church begins teaching something that is not the truth, and the truth is then carried forward by another group, does that change the core meaning of the church being the pillar and foundation of truth?
 

GodsGrace

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Do you know what the word Antichrist means, and what the philosophy behind it stands for GG? I
Not sure...
Anti-Christ many times means those against Christ...those that oppose Him and His ideas.
The philosophy behind it....
John meant that some taught against what Jesus taught. He was particularly concerned with the gnostics.

This is all I know.
 
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brakelite

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Not sure...
Anti-Christ many times means those against Christ...those that oppose Him and His ideas.
The philosophy behind it....
John meant that some taught against what Jesus taught. He was particularly concerned with the gnostics.

This is all I know.
You are correct... It means one who opposes Christ.... But the Antichrist is unique in the way he opposes. It is by replacing Christ... Usurping His authority... Introducing people to a means of worship, salvation, etc that removes Christ from the mind's eye. Now think about the doctrines of Catholicism... Is there one you can think of that doesn't place the church, its priests, its sacraments it's teachings ahead of direct faith in Christ add Sole Mediator?
 
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aspen

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You are correct... It means one who opposes Christ.... But the Antichrist is unique in the way he opposes. It is by replacing Christ... Usurping His authority... Introducing people to a means of worship, salvation, etc that removes Christ from the mind's eye. Now think about the doctrines of Catholicism... Is there one you can think of that doesn't place the church, is priests, is standbys, it's teachings ahead of direct faith in Christ add Sole Mediator?

I pray directly to God, especially before reconciliation - which is how I was taught by my priest
 
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Philip James

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Is there one you can think of that doesn't place the church, is priests, is standbys, it's teachings ahead of direct faith in Christ add Sole Mediator?

The entire life of the Church flows from faith in Jesus Christ and who HE is and what HE has done !

If the devils idea to keep people lost is to lead hundreds of millions of people to call Jesus their Lord and Saviour,
Well then he's not very bright....

Now to convince them that 'God has no son' on the other hand....

Peace!
 
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brakelite

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I pray directly to God, especially before reconciliation - which is how I was taught by my priest

The entire life of the Church flows from faith in Jesus Christ and who HE is and what HE has done !

If the devils idea to keep people lost is to lead hundreds of millions of people to call Jesus their Lord and Saviour,
Well then he's not very bright....

Now to convince them that 'God has no son' on the other hand....

Peace!
I think it was the previous Pope who declared that no one should ever seek forgiveness of sin directly from God.
 

GodsGrace

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You are correct... It means one who opposes Christ.... But the Antichrist is unique in the way he opposes. It is by replacing Christ... Usurping His authority... Introducing people to a means of worship, salvation, etc that removes Christ from the mind's eye. Now think about the doctrines of Catholicism... Is there one you can think of that doesn't place the church, its priests, its sacraments it's teachings ahead of direct faith in Christ add Sole Mediator?
Very good and concise answer!
Easy to understand.

When I think of THE ANTI-CHRIST --- maybe the singular one the N.T. speaks of...
I DO think of one that comes to command in an important, life-changing way and that takes the place of God---just as you've stated...
He might be the person that brings about the end of the world?

Now to your question. I thought about it a little.

As I've said many times,,,I do believe that the early church and the early church fathers (theologians) are to be commended for preserving the faith, persevering in the faith, and safe-guarding the faith for us today. This would go to the 300's. Some scholars go to the 600's...IMHO, I don't agree with that because too many changes were already taking place.

After the 300's, the church became involved with the state and lost its spiritual purity.
At this point everything you propose about the CC becomes true. It become the authority instead of Jesus and/God (same thing).

It introduced people to a form of worship that the church claimed was necessary to be saved and it stopped preaching the grace of God. Confession would be one way...confessing to a priest..a barrier. Another doctrine is purgatory instead of faith in forgiveness...a barrier. Too much power was given to ONE PERSON,,,the Bishop of Rome that became known as the Pope....a barrier. Creating indulgences and eventually teaching payment for same....more than a barrier.
Oh. And the church taught, and still teaches, that the sacraments are necessary for salvation.
And are you aware that pre-Vatican II the idea was floating to declare Mary a co-redemptrix? And I'm not sure they've entirely let go of this idea (maybe they have).

So what you say is true.
I just want to add that the CC is making a big effort to change. If you go to Mass these days you hear preaching about Christ....you DO hear the message that one must believe and follow Christ to be saved. Most priests won't use those exact words, but the younger ones do.

I just can't find hatred within me hatred for what has happened.
I attribute the problem to MEN and not to the church itself. Maybe this is wrong, I'm not sure.
There is so much more good than evil in that church --- but evil does exist and I think the days are here where that evil will be paid for and I'm speaking about the new law just passed, I think in NYC.

Yes. In the past the message was more on church rules.
Now it seems to be more concentrated on Jesus.
 
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GodsGrace

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I think it was the previous Pope who declared that no one should ever seek forgiveness of sin directly from God.
Know why?
The most important things priests do are:
The Mass
Confession

If we take confession away---what would be left?
Confession did not exist in the early church.

This is the teaching on sin:
Venial sins do not have to be confessed.
It is RECOMMENDED that one go to confession anyway at least once per year,
preferably at Easter time. (Lent).

Mortal sins MUST be confessed to a priest for forgiveness.
If a person dies BEFORE confessing a mortal sin, then if they INTENDED to go to confession and are truly sorry -- it IS forgiven.
 

GodsGrace

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The entire life of the Church flows from faith in Jesus Christ and who HE is and what HE has done !

If the devils idea to keep people lost is to lead hundreds of millions of people to call Jesus their Lord and Saviour,
Well then he's not very bright....

Now to convince them that 'God has no son' on the other hand....

Peace!
I do wonder how old you are PJ.
The above is NOT what the church always taught.
It has changed a lot however, and this should be known.
 

quietthinker

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So what you say is true.
I just want to add that the CC is making a big effort to change. If you go to Mass these days you hear preaching about Christ....you DO hear the message that one must believe and follow Christ to be saved. Most priests won't use those exact words, but the younger ones do.
We are entering an interesting era; one where boundaries are becoming blurred; particularly in the area's of 'faith'
A solid foundation is the only place which ensures the flood about to burst on the world will not carry us away.
The RCC has her stated 'we do not change'. Her approach may appear different but her objectives are the same.....the means justifies the end is the trajectory.

Jesus told the story of those who built on the rock and those who built on the sand and the results when the forces arrayed against the buildings struck.

I have learn't through experience that nice is not necessarily nice, particularly when transparency is not the priority and an agenda is in the drivers seat.
 
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Giuliano

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We are entering an interesting era; one where boundaries are becoming blurred; particularly in the area's of 'faith'
A solid foundation is the only place which ensures the flood about to burst on the world will not carry us away.
The RCC has her stated 'we do not change'. Her approach may appear different but her objectives are the same.....the means justifies the end is the trajectory.

Jesus told the story of those who built on the rock and those who built on the sand and the results when the forces arrayed against the buildings struck.

I have learn't through experience that nice is not necessarily nice, particularly when transparency is not the priority and an agenda is in the drivers seat.
Let's remember that as soon as the wheat was sown, along came someone else to sow the tares. Of course, it's true wrong people infiltrated the Church. Of course. What was to be done about it?

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


God will sort things out. If men try to pull out the tares, they damage the wheat.
 
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Philip James

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Jesus told the story of those who built on the rock and those who built on the sand and the results when the forces arrayed against the buildings struck.

Well, the storm is coming, and those who choose life will be sorely put to the test,
But the victory has been won, and our Lord will carry us through.

Stand against the growing darkness, and hold your heads high, for our Love, our sweetness and our Life will sustain us.

And by our love for HIM and each other, we will be a witness that will change the hearts of many.

May our Lord, Jesus Christ, be praised and glorified, forever and ever!
Amen!
 
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