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Featured The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Phoneman777, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Who sows division? Who wants to remain united?

    Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

    The tragedy of Protestantism is that once people fell under the the spirit of division, they found they couldn't stop and kept creating more divisions and more denominations. When they couldn't agree among themselves, they had no way of working things out except by splintering even further.

    Luther and Zwingli met at Marburg and tried to work things out, but they failed. Philip 1 of Hessen got leading Protestants together because he wanted them to be united. It didn't work.

    If you want more details about how things went, Wikipedia has an article, here's the link: Marburg Colloquy. No one recognized any authority except what each claimed himself, so they had no way of settling things.
     
  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I have somewhat of a different perspective on the divisions that resulted from the reformation.
    I think back to the tower of Babel, and the religious paradigm that was being erected there. A religion of unity... But one that espoused self preservation and built on a sense of fear of judgement. Much like what Adam and Eve did after the fall and hiding in the bushes with self made clothing.
    Anyway, the spirit that built Babel didn't go away even after the division. But the division was necessary and was accomplished by God to break up the apostasy. The CC is a modern manifestation of Babel... Babylon the Great. In order to break up that apostasy there again had to be division. People have to be removed from error before truth can take hold... God says "come out of her My people"... So while the system is apostate, God still has people within that system... But he calls on them to divide... To separate themselves from what will eventually destroy them. The unity in Christ that we all desire and seek must come after division. While many point to the numerous discordant voices of Protestantism add evidence of error and dysfunction, I see it as a necessary process before the final unifying move of the holy Spirit that will bring all surrendered believers into Christ.
    In Revelation we read of the Laodicea church that is luke warm. Note that there is no rebuke from Christ over doctrine, but over attitude. If the church was cold, the people would sense their need and come to Christ. If they were hot, and perhaps fanatics, they could be balanced out... But Laodicea had no sense of the need... They were self satisfied and content in their seeming affluence and comfort.. Both physically and spiritually. Yet it is within that Laodicea church, the final church before the second coming, that we find a doctrinally correct church and which will be found unified before the end...a repentant church...a church no longer luke warm...a church surrendered and filled with the holy Spirit..a church devoid of idols, complacency, and in which is found no guile. The church that will... Is... Taking the everlasting gospel to all nations Kings tongues and peoples in these last days.
    The church today is being divided, not into 1000s of disparate groups, but into two. Spiritual Babylon and spiritual Israel. The sheep and the goats... Wheat and tares.

    Not sure if the above makes any sense to anyone... But it does to me. Lol. That's the way I see it.
     
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  3. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    What went wrong at Babel? The world had already been divided according to tribes. The people were supposed to cover the earth and subdue it. There were supposed to be differences, just as there are differences in the Body of Christ in its members. Each nation should have its own unique style; and when they all accomplish that, they fit together. That is why the multitude before the throne must have people from every nation. The whole wouldn't be complete otherwise; something would be missing.

    Instead the people disobeyed the commandment to go subdue the earth and wanted to build their own way up into Heaven. Man's way was using bricks. Easy to use since they're all alike. Trying to make every nation alike might seem the way to promote harmony; but to do that, you have to reduce people to a slavish mentality. They have to be talked into believing the way to Heaven is by using human means, with everyone thinking alike taking orders from one authority.

    Christianity was fine when there were three centers of authority: Rome, Antioch and Alexandria. They minded their own business. Rome exceeded its role at time when it insisted too much that everyone else had to follow them. That was exhibiting a Babylonish tendency. That is like your hand looking at your foot and criticizing it. Rome should have a role if problems existed between Antioch and Alexandria. If Rome could be called the head, they should have reconciled things so Antioch and Alexandria cooperated. It was that way for a while too. They would write the Pope, saying they had a problem and asking him to reconcile it. He would answer, and both parties agreed. They remained different members of the body, seeing things from different perspectives, but they found out how to live in harmony.

    Your head doesn't tell your feet and eyes to behave the same way. It wouldn't work. The head gets messages from the eyes and then sends messages to the feet about what to do. The head is coordinating things. If your stomach says it needs food, your head hears that; then it uses the eyes to look around, and the feet to go get it.

    God confounded the tongues at Babel so they couldn't believe everyone had to think the same way. Then they moved out and spread across the earth according to the commandment.

    It is also interesting that people with a slavish mentality may keep that mentality even after being called out. This error of slavish thinking needed to be corrected -- and God told him that his children would have to be in bondage in Egypt. They had a Pharaoh who oppressed them and refused to allow religious freedom -- the Babylon type of thinking. Then when they were called out, most of them still had that slavish mentality. They talked about going back since they missed the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlic. They did not enter the Land of Promise, but they also didn't go back to Egypt. They followed the Pillar and all perished in the wilderness; but their children entered.
     
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  4. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    And that is different now how? Constantinople instead of Antioch?

    There remain 2 or 3 authoritative witnesses to the apostolic tradition. Shall we not listen to them?

    Peace!
     
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  5. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Listen to them saying what? What are they trying to tell us?
     
  6. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    To join us in the wedding feast!

    Peace be with you!

    Christ is risen!
    Alleluia!
     
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  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Constantinople was established in rebellion against the proper order -- as reflected correctly at Nicea. I recognize them as legitimate Christians, I also see that they went into captivity. Their Patriarch remains under the thumb of non-Christians. Israel was sent into captivity for their correction. I see God at work with the Orthodox Patriarch being in captivity. One thing that would help would be if the Patriarch of Constantinople dropped the the phrase, "first among equals."

    They have also fallen into being fractured. The Russian Orthodox Patriarch is now in competition with the Patriarch of Constantinople. It's been brewing, but the rift seems to be getting worse. They also squabble over who should have authority over Orthodox churches in Canada and the USA.

    They announced in 2014 that they would be holding an ecumenical council; but I don't know what really happened. Here's a story that tells about that announcement.

    Orthodox Churches Will Hold First Ecumenical Council In 1,200 Years In Istanbul | HuffPost

    What happened? I don't know; but in 2018, there was news of a break between Moscow and Constantinople.

    Here's the link -- I'll quote just a small part.

    Russian Church Official Says 'Impossible' To Remain United With Ecumenical Patriarchate

    The Russian Orthodox Church says a decision about the Ukrainian Orthodox Church made by the synod of the Constantinople Patriarchate has forced the Moscow Patriarchate to end its unity with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians.

    One reason behind the war in Ukraine was the squabble over who should have authority over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. The Russian Patriarch is also exercising his muscles because of the numbers of Russian Orthodox Christians. Putin also isn't helpful since he thinks his political clout will be greater if he supports the Russian Patriarch's ambition. Thus we also saw him telling people how he was doing so much to protect Christians when the Russian military went into Syria -- I saw that as an attempt to convert Christians there to the Russian Orthodox Church and thereby giving Putin more influence. Putin and Patriarch Kirill are both out to gain power. Kirill may say he's for unity; but he doesn't show it in his deeds.

    Perhaps if the two Patriarchs could have ironed this out long ago, there wouldn't have been a civil war in Ukraine. It's a tragedy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  8. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    What guarantees are there that they will be there? On what basis do they claim any assurance of salvation when their own histories reveal so little evidence that God was with them?
     
  9. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Brother,
    This would be an argument for alexandria or rome (or both) but the orthodox have validly ordained bishops nonetheless, and so their witness stands.
    Rather than look at what divides them, look instead at that which they share! Here can be found with assurance (2 or 3 witnesses) the deposit of the faith given to them through the apostles.. Incarnation, crucifixtion, ressurection, recomcilliation, baptism, eucharist, ordination, obedience....

    In all these especially you will find the fufillment of Malachi 1:11

    For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

    The Eucharist, truly the flesh and blood of our risen saviour Jesus Christ!

    All of the ancient apostilic churches belive this, all share in the wedding feast.

    So then , come to the feast! With Alexandria, with Constantinopal, with Rome.... But Come!

    The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.


    Peace be with you!

    Christ IS risen!
    Alleluia!
     
  10. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Guaruntees? How about 'the gates of hell will not prevail against it'

    That they have histories, is evidence God was with them.
    Where are the Novations? The Donatists, the Arians? ...
    Who continues to without fail pass the ONE cup of the new covenant to the next generation?

    Peace be with you!
     
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  11. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Would that Constantinople and Moscow could share that attitude. Life would be so much easier for them.
     
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  12. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    What is the trajectory?
    What is the end?
    What is the agenda?
     
  13. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    I thought you might want to educate yourself about your own Christian history and read what the men who walked and talked with the Apostles wrote/believed/practiced....I was wrong! :(

    You are only interested in what you think....of that I am not wrong.

    Mary
     
  14. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you taken.

    You do keep me in stitches......Good luck to you.
     
  15. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to figure out what you mean by "YOUR" apostolic and church fathers?

    Perhaps you can explain?

    Curious mary

    PS...I know you really don't like to answer questions AND most of your responses are in a mocking, don't put words in MY mouth tone but I SERIOUSLY would like a SERIOUS answer
     
  16. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Got it....your embarrassed.
     
  17. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hey....dodgeball.....Can you PLEASE answer my questions:

    It is my understanding that you are an SDA?

    Can you quote from your church teachings that they are to be put to death? I can't find it here: Beliefs :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church
     
  18. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Is that grape Kool-aide your having today?
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Whatever you say.
     
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  20. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean "what if"??? It's already happened. o_O

    Mary
     
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