The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Davidpt]

So He's sitting at the right hand of the Father until He makes His enemies His footstool but also on the earth at the same time? So doesn't Jesus currently sitting on the right hand of the Father at this moment prove that He is reigning now?

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia​

7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 3 was clearly a current time to the writing of Revelation

Marty, I'm trying to do better via my exchanges with you. So hopefully you do think I'm addressing your arguments at times rather than never addressing them at all. The truth is I appreciate having exchanges with you, regardless we don't see eye to eye on most of these things. When having exchanges with you there is usually no added drama to have to deal with. Apparently then, you might be the only adult in the room, or at least among the very few.


I don't deny He is reigning now. But He is not reigning in the sense Matthew 19:28 depicts Him reigning. That being upon the earth and bodily. But that doesn't mean I agree saved saints are currently reigning with Him, spiritually speaking, during an alleged millennium that has been underway for the past 2K years. All one has to do is objectively compare with Revelation 3:21 and plainly see there are 2 thrones depicted in that verse, not one throne. And then compare to Matthew 25 where it then gives the timing of when He initially sits in the throne of His glory and where He does that at. It is then at that point when saints begin reigning with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

It is then during the following when saints begin reigning with Him a thousand years.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And finally the following provides the exact when.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


If you disagree, and I'm sure you do, you then need to convincingly prove there are not 2 thrones in view in Revelation 3:21, but that there is only one throne in view.

You also need to convincingly prove exactly why--To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning the very same throne/s both Matthew 19:28 & Matthew 25:31 are involving and when those verses are meaning.

And finally you need to convincingly prove why---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--does not equal saints reigning with Christ a thousand years. But if you perhaps agree that it does, well you then can't divorce both Matthew 19:28 & Matthew 25:31 from the equation then expect anyone to find your arguments credible. If your arguments are credible, you would not need to divorce both Matthew 19:28 & Matthew 25:31 from the equation, obviously.

 

[Davidpt]

Actually the word "Week" represents a seven day period

If Daniel meant "Four Hundred Ninety Years" he would have written it, he didnt

It's too bad you can't even do simple basic 3rd grade math. Even 3rd graders likely know you can't fit a literal 3.5 year period into a period involving 490 days. 42 months = 1260 days. 770 more days than 490 days. Yet you would have us believe that these 1260 days take place during these literal 490 days. Seriously, how are you not embarrassed, that you are a grown person, seemingly intelligent, but can't even do simple 3rd grade basic math by now? How can you think you are not insulting the intelligence of anyone that can do simple basic math, including 3rd graders?

 

[ewq1938]

Where does the bible say that there are only two coming?

I already posted it.

Hebrews 9:27-28​

27 And just as it is destined for people to die once and after this comes the judgment, 28 so also[a] Christ, having been offered once so as to bear[b] the sins of many, will appear for a second time without reference to sin to the ones eagerly-awaiting Him, for salvation.

Not third time or 4th time but SECOND TIME.

This means your assertions that going to the Father and returning at the resurrection was a second coming is incorrect. That was all part of the first coming and fulfilment of prophecy. The only coming left is the second one and it did not happen in AD70 and I reject the idea of a secret or special coming before the true second coming that Amill and Pretrib promote.

 

[Marty fox]

I already posted it.

Hebrews 9:27-28​

27 And just as it is destined for people to die once and after this comes the judgment, 28 so also[a] Christ, having been offered once so as to bear[b] the sins of many, will appear for a second time without reference to sin to the ones eagerly-awaiting Him, for salvation.

Not third time or 4th time but SECOND TIME.

This means your assertions that going to the Father and returning at the resurrection was a second coming is incorrect. That was all part of the first coming and fulfilment of prophecy. The only coming left is the second one and it did not happen in AD70 and I reject the idea of a secret or special coming before the true second coming that Amill and Pretrib promote.

Once again this was your words not mine and you actually said.

"No, because the first coming was from heaven to Earth, and so is the second coming. If that happened in the past as you believe, it would have been the second coming."

You said "If that happened in the past as you believe, it would have been the second coming."

You said it not me these are your words so at least be respectful and address what you said

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Marty, I'm trying to do better via my exchanges with you. So hopefully you do think I'm addressing your arguments at times rather than never addressing them at all. The truth is I appreciate having exchanges with you, regardless we don't see eye to eye on most of these things. When having exchanges with you there is usually no added drama to have to deal with. Apparently then, you might be the only adult in the room, or at least among the very few.

I disagree with a lot of his preterist views as well, and I don't hide my disdain for preterism itself, but he's a good example for us of how to have a respectful discussion. I appreciate that about him. Let's you and I try to do better as well. Deal? That's what I would prefer rather than the insults we tend to exchange.

I don't deny He is reigning now. But He is not reigning in the sense Matthew 19:28 depicts Him reigning. That being upon the earth and bodily. But that doesn't mean I agree saved saints are currently reigning with Him, spiritually speaking, during an alleged millennium that has been underway for the past 2K years. All one has to do is objectively compare with Revelation 3:21 and plainly see there are 2 thrones depicted in that verse, not one throne. And then compare to Matthew 25 where it then gives the timing of when He initially sits in the throne of His glory and where He does that at. It is then at that point when saints begin reigning with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

It is then during the following when saints begin reigning with Him a thousand years.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And finally the following provides the exact when.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Where in Matthew 19:28 or Matthew 25:31-46 did Jesus say anything at all about beginning to reign for a long period of time on the earth after He comes? Nowhere. Those passages are talking about judging in terms of handing out eternal rewards or sentences, not reigning for a long period of time. What does Matthew 25:31-46 say happens to unbelievers at that point? That they get to continue living in their mortal bodies for another thousand years? Not even close. It says they are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels at that point. So, where do you see anything in Matthew 25:31-46 that talks about mortals inheriting the earth at that point?

If you disagree, and I'm sure you do, you then need to convincingly prove there are not 2 thrones in view in Revelation 3:21, but that there is only one throne in view.

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

That verse is talking about having authority, not sitting on literal thrones. Heaven itself is God's throne (Isaiah 66:1). He obviously doesn't literally sit on heaven. If you think of the thrones referenced in verses like Matt 19:28, Matt 25:31 and Rev 3:21 as literal thrones then that will just cause confusion. The verse is talking about one throne, not two, because Jesus is talking about the same authority that the Father had and then Jesus had as well after His resurrection, as described in verses like Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-22.

So, what Jesus is saying there in Revelation 3:21 is that just as He was given all authority in heaven and earth over every name that is named after His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22), He will give authority to those who overcome (who are faithful until death - Rev 2:10-11). It's all the same authority. The same throne. His throne is not a separate throne from the Father's throne or else He wouldn't be able to sit with the Father on His throne. Similarly, those who overcome cannot sit on a separate throne from the Father's throne because that is where Jesus is sitting rather than on a separate throne. Again, this all relates to authority. Jesus shares the same authority that the Father has and that's why He sits with the Father together on the one throne. Jesus will allow overcomers to sit on that same throne with Him, which means He will give them authority for overcoming.

You also need to convincingly prove exactly why--To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning the very same throne/s both Matthew 19:28 & Matthew 25:31 are involving and when those verses are meaning.

Why would he want to do that? Those two verses do refer to the same throne as Revelation 3:21. I don't think he would disagree.

And finally you need to convincingly prove why---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--does not equal saints reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Because Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that the saints will inherit eternal life when He comes, so it equals reigning with Him for eternity, not for a thousand years. In subjection to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28).