The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps you should copy and paste the verse about Noah and Lot...highlight the portions that speak of what the people are doing...then show me how that highlighted portion correctly reflects the end of the tribulation.

Balls in your court.

Here is how I interpret that passage (Luke 17:26-30) along with the verses which follow it.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [b]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [c]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.

Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.

Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).

Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.

Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever the eagles or vultures are gathered around the dead bodies killed by Chirist's wrath on the day He returns. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation". No, they do not. They will be killed.

 

[Davidpt]

Perhaps you should copy and paste the verse about Noah and Lot...highlight the portions that speak of what the people are doing...then show me how that highlighted portion correctly reflects the end of the tribulation.

Balls in your court.

I'm not Pretrib myself, I'm post trib, yet, clearly, per Luke 17, no way is the 2nd coming after great tribulation in view. The following proves it.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Let's be logical here. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is meaning during the 2nd coming after great tribulation. Ok then, what is the text informing the person to do when Christ bodily returns per this scenario?

This---he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Seriously, why would anyone do any of that, in any sense, during the bodily return of Christ? To accomplish exactly what????? That clearly does not fit a bodily 2nd coming of Christ scenario. Anyone already familiar with the gospels, thus have no doctrinal bias' standing in their way, are going to easily make the connection with verse 33 and that of the following.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


In verse 24 Jesus is not meaning one is to do that when He bodily returns. He is clearly meaning while He is away. It is clearly connected with discipleship in general while He is away. And what is one thing that happens while He is away? Great tribulation. Not great tribulation allegedly involving 70 AD. Great tribulation involving the church. Can't have great tribulation involving the church if the church is not even here during grate tribulation. Therefore, the rapture is not Pretrib.

Compare verse 25 with verse 33 in Luke 17. It is the exact same concept. Both verses say the exact same thing.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it---vs--- Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


The problem on sites like this, there are too many thinking they are teachers, thus we should be listening to them rather than interpreting Scripture with Scripture and coming to our own conclusions about the texts in question. We don't need anyone telling us, us meaning anyone in general, how to interpret something if their interpretations are not even agreeing with the texts involved to begin with.

If an interpretation leads to an absurd conclusion, how can that not be a red flag that the interpretation is not correct? How can Luke 17:31 not lead to an absurd conclusion if meaning during the bodily return of Christ, in light of Luke 17:33, in light of Matthew 16:24-26?

No one that I know of would apply the 2nd coming to Matthew 16:24-25, and that Luke 17:33 is saying the exact same thing Matthew 16:25 is.

Not to mention. Per Matthew 24:17-18, which is undeniably echoing Luke 17:31-33, places Luke 17:31-33 during great tribulation, not during the bodily return of Christ in the end of the age. But let's just ignore that. Right? Let's just make Matthew 24:17-18 be about 70 AD instead, despite it is echoed in Luke 17 and that Luke 17 is not meaning 70 AD. Not that anyone might be saying it is. but that is beside the point.

The point is, if Luke 17:31-33 can't fit 70 AD, then neither can Matthew 24:17-18 fit 70 AD. And that @Spiritual Israelite, who you are debating, insists Matthew 24:17-18 involves 70 AD. Then insists Luke 17:31-33 involves the 2nd coming. He is not even being consistent, let alone being logical about Luke 17:31-33 in general.

And BTW, assuming one has read this far, after me reading the last cpl of pages, the only one I see making any sense of some of this is @rwb.

 

[CrowCross]

I haven't seen you specifically exegete those verses, so I can't say exactly how you interpret them. If you have no interest in doing that, that's your choice. But, I'd like to know what your understanding is of those passages. They indicate that sudden destruction by fire will come unexpectedly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. So, I'm wondering how you can reconcile what those passages indicate with a 7 year time period of tribulation? I don't see how "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape" can describe a 7 year time period of God's wrath.

Provide the verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not Pretrib myself, I'm post trib, yet, clearly, per Luke 17, no way is the 2nd coming after great tribulation in view. The following proves it.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Let's be logical here. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is meaning during the 2nd coming after great tribulation. Ok then, what is the text informing the person to do when Christ bodily returns per this scenario?

This---he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Seriously, why would anyone do any of that, in any sense, during the bodily return of Christ? To accomplish exactly what????? That clearly does not fit a bodily 2nd coming of Christ scenario. Anyone already familiar with the gospels, thus have no doctrinal bias' standing in their way, are going to easily make the connection with verse 33 and that of the following.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


In verse 24 Jesus is not meaning one is to do that when He bodily returns. He is clearly meaning while He is away. It is clearly connected with discipleship in general while He is away. And what is one thing that happens while He is away? Great tribulation. Not great tribulation allegedly involving 70 AD. Great tribulation involving the church. Can't have great tribulation involving the church if the church is not even here during grate tribulation. Therefore, the rapture is not Pretrib.

Compare verse 25 with verse 33 in Luke 17. It is the exact same concept. Both verses say the exact same thing.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it---vs--- Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


The problem on sites like this, there are too many thinking they are teachers, thus we should be listening to them rather than interpreting Scripture with Scripture and coming to our own conclusions about the texts in question. We don't need anyone telling us, us meaning anyone in general, how to interpret something if their interpretations are not even agreeing with the texts involved to begin with.

If an interpretation leads to an absurd conclusion, how can that not be a red flag that the interpretation is not correct? How can Luke 17:31 not lead to an absurd conclusion if meaning during the bodily return of Christ, in light of Luke 17:33, in light of Matthew 16:24-26?

No one that I know of would apply the 2nd coming to Matthew 16:24-25, and that Luke 17:33 is saying the exact same thing Matthew 16:25 is.

Not to mention. Per Matthew 24:17-18, which is undeniably echoing Luke 17:31-33, places Luke 17:31-33 during great tribulation, not during the bodily return of Christ in the end of the age. But let's just ignore that. Right? Let's just make Matthew 24:17-18 be about 70 AD instead, despite it is echoed in Luke 17 and that Luke 17 is not meaning 70 AD. Not that anyone might be saying it is. but that is beside the point.

The point is, if Luke 17:31-33 can't fit 70 AD, then neither can Matthew 24:17-18 fit 70 AD. And that @Spiritual Israelite, who you are debating, insists Matthew 24:17-18 involves 70 AD. Then insists Luke 17:31-33 involves the 2nd coming. He is not even being consistent, let alone being logical about Luke 17:31-33 in general.

And BTW, assuming one has read this far, after me reading the last cpl of pages, the only one I see making any sense of some of this is @rwb.

Oh, look, you decided to come back again after leaving without addressing any of the points we were making in our posts directed to you before your latest hiatus. What a shocker. How long will you stay around this time before disappearing again without addressing our arguments?

What a joke this is coming from you. If the type of logic you're using is valid, then that means I can prove you wrong by showing how you deny that Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24 are parallel passages despite both of them saying "let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains" after seeing something that will indicate that Jerusalem's desolation is near and how both of them say "How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!" and both speak of the event as being "great tribulation" or "great distress". If I'm not consistent, then it can be shown that you also are not consistent by using the same kind of logic you use to draw that conclusion about me. So, once again, you have made a ridiculous argument that can be applied to yourself. Try again.

How about actually addressing what I said in my post #881 instead of your usual drive by nonsense? How about actually putting in the effort to address my arguments without this hypocritical approach you're taking to try to refute them?

 

[CrowCross]

Here is how I interpret that passage (Luke 17:26-30) along with the verses which follow it.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [b]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [c]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.

Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.

Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).

Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.

Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever the eagles or vultures are gathered around the dead bodies killed by Chirist's wrath on the day He returns. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation". No, they do not. They will be killed.

You didn't seem to recognize this portion.....They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.

Why not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Provide the verse.

I've already done so multiple times. I'll try again one more time. How do you interpret these passages...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [a]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You didn't seem to recognize this portion.....They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.

Why not?

Because that portion isn't related to the points I was making. Why else? I'm not purposely leaving anything out. Can you see how much detail I put in my posts? But, it's not enough to satisfy you? You can't bring yourself to address what I did say in my post? This is all you can say in response?

That portion you're talking about relates to the fact that unbelievers will be caught completely off guard when Jesus comes, which is the same thing that is indicated in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. People will be saying "peace and safety" and going on about their normal lives with no clue as to what is about to happen to them, just like was the case in the days of Noah and the days of Lot, and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them when Jesus comes unexpectedly (no one knows the day or hour - Matthew 24:36) like a thief in the night and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

 

[CrowCross]

I'm not Pretrib myself, I'm post trib, yet, clearly, per Luke 17, no way is the 2nd coming after great tribulation in view. The following proves it.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Let's be logical here. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is meaning during the 2nd coming after great tribulation. Ok then, what is the text informing the person to do when Christ bodily returns per this scenario?

This---he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Seriously, why would anyone do any of that, in any sense, during the bodily return of Christ? To accomplish exactly what????? That clearly does not fit a bodily 2nd coming of Christ scenario. Anyone already familiar with the gospels, thus have no doctrinal bias' standing in their way, are going to easily make the connection with verse 33 and that of the following.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


In verse 24 Jesus is not meaning one is to do that when He bodily returns. He is clearly meaning while He is away. It is clearly connected with discipleship in general while He is away. And what is one thing that happens while He is away? Great tribulation. Not great tribulation allegedly involving 70 AD. Great tribulation involving the church. Can't have great tribulation involving the church if the church is not even here during grate tribulation. Therefore, the rapture is not Pretrib.

Compare verse 25 with verse 33 in Luke 17. It is the exact same concept. Both verses say the exact same thing.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it---vs--- Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


The problem on sites like this, there are too many thinking they are teachers, thus we should be listening to them rather than interpreting Scripture with Scripture and coming to our own conclusions about the texts in question. We don't need anyone telling us, us meaning anyone in general, how to interpret something if their interpretations are not even agreeing with the texts involved to begin with.

If an interpretation leads to an absurd conclusion, how can that not be a red flag that the interpretation is not correct? How can Luke 17:31 not lead to an absurd conclusion if meaning during the bodily return of Christ, in light of Luke 17:33, in light of Matthew 16:24-26?

No one that I know of would apply the 2nd coming to Matthew 16:24-25, and that Luke 17:33 is saying the exact same thing Matthew 16:25 is.

Not to mention. Per Matthew 24:17-18, which is undeniably echoing Luke 17:31-33, places Luke 17:31-33 during great tribulation, not during the bodily return of Christ in the end of the age. But let's just ignore that. Right? Let's just make Matthew 24:17-18 be about 70 AD instead, despite it is echoed in Luke 17 and that Luke 17 is not meaning 70 AD. Not that anyone might be saying it is. but that is beside the point.

The point is, if Luke 17:31-33 can't fit 70 AD, then neither can Matthew 24:17-18 fit 70 AD. And that @Spiritual Israelite, who you are debating, insists Matthew 24:17-18 involves 70 AD. Then insists Luke 17:31-33 involves the 2nd coming. He is not even being consistent, let alone being logical about Luke 17:31-33 in general.

And BTW, assuming one has read this far, after me reading the last cpl of pages, the only one I see making any sense of some of this is @rwb.

I posted....Perhaps you should copy and paste the verse about Noah and Lot...highlight the portions that speak of what the people are doing...then show me how that highlighted portion correctly reflects the end of the tribulation.

Your reply didn't address that issue.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I posted....Perhaps you should copy and paste the verse about Noah and Lot...highlight the portions that speak of what the people are doing...then show me how that highlighted portion correctly reflects the end of the tribulation.

Your reply didn't address that issue.

What are you intending to say in relation to that portion of the text exactly?

 

[CrowCross]

I've already done so multiple times. I'll try again one more time. How do you interpret these passages...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Do you think people will be saying...peace and safety...at the end of the tribulation? I don't.

2 Peter 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [a]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

You don't seem to leave any room for the 1000 year reign.

Jesus returns in Rev 19...Zech 14 Mount of Olives is splits an all that follows that....Satan is locked up....the 1000 year reign begins.

Obviously the bon fire won't happen on the day Jesus returns like a thief in the night.

Can you explain it?