The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

When and where have I ever denied TWO comings of Christ?

Nowhere. I didn't say that you did. Did you just speed read through people's posts or something? How is it that you so often misunderstand what people are saying?

What I deny is that the prophets of Old prophesy of TWO comings!

You need to be more clear when you say things like this. They did not knowingly and purposely prophesy of two comings of Christ. Is that what you mean? Surely, the day of the Lord that Joel prophesied in relation to being "great and very terrible" (Joel 2:11) correlates with the future day of the Lord when Christ returns and that will result in great and very terrible wrath upon unbelievers, as Paul and Peter wrote about, right? But, it's not specified there that it's referring to something in relation to the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is never explicitly referred to in the Old Testament. If that's what you're saying, then I agree. But, certainly, things that we now know are related to what will happen when He comes again are written about in the Old Testament, like the resurrection of the dead and the judgment and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

Their prophesy speaks only of ONE coming when all that is written of Him is fulfilled during the period of time they call "the day of the LORD". Since I've never mentioned the doctrine of PRE=TRIB in this thread why are you bringing it into my discussions as though I have?

Because you seemed to be talking about people believing in two future comings of the Lord, as they believe. You're not being clear in what you're saying. You didn't make it clear that the OT doesn't explicitly prophesy of two comings of Christ. I would agree with that. But, it does prophesy of things that will occur at His second coming without explicitly indicating that those things would occur as part of His second coming.

 

[rwb]

Nowhere. I didn't say that you did. Did you just speed read through people's posts or something? How is it that you so often misunderstand what people are saying?


You need to be more clear when you say things like this. They did not knowingly and purposely prophesy of two comings of Christ. Is that what you mean? Surely, the day of the Lord that Joel prophesied in relation to being "great and very terrible" (Joel 2:11) correlates with the future day of the Lord when Christ returns and that will result in great and very terrible wrath upon unbelievers, as Paul and Peter wrote about, right? But, it's not specified thYere that it's referring to something in relation to the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is never explicitly referred to in the Old Testament. If that's what you're saying, then I agree. But, certainly, things that we now know are related to what will happen when He comes again are written about in the Old Testament, like the resurrection of the dead and the judgment and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.


Because you seemed to be talking about people believing in two future comings of the Lord, as they believe. You're not being clear in what you're saying. You didn't make it clear that the OT doesn't explicitly prophesy of two comings of Christ. I would agree with that. But, it does prophesy of things that will occur at His second coming without explicitly indicating that those things would occur as part of His second coming.

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of! You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not. That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight! Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of!

If I misunderstood you, it wasn't on purpose. So, if anyone is guilty here, it's you for being unclear. And whether I misrepresented you or not doesn't change the fact that you often misrepresent the views of others. I'm not saying you do it on purpose, but you do.

You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not.

That's what you need to do. And you need to work on being more clear about what you're saying. I do try to read what you say carefully, but you just have no idea how unclear you are at times.

That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight!

LOL. Everyone here, including you, tries to set everyone else straight and that's why there are so many disagreements. Are you not trying to set everyone else straight in your many disagreements with many other people on this forum about various topics? Sure, you are. So what? If you feel you are called to be a Bible teacher and to correct false doctrine, then you can call that whatever you want. It doesn't matter to me what you call that.

Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

That is entirely your fault because of how overly sensitive you are. I try to have civil discussions with you, but you don't seem to be interested in that. You get so emotional about everything. Just calm down and let's be willing to agree to disagree about things calmly. Can you do that? I can. And I'd like to do that. And I've told you this. But, you continue to be inflammatory whenever talking to me. Don't blame me for that.

 

[Davidpt]

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of! You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not. That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight! Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

See, you're not clear about what he was saying, either, yet he got upset with me just because I misunderstood what he said. He definitely has trouble with communicating clearly, but I guess that's somehow everyone else's fault.

 

[rwb]

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

Yes, Premillennialists appear to believe some of what the prophets of Old foretell did not come to pass within the first advent of the Lord. Therefore, they reason there will be a second coming of Christ for one thousand years to this earth to finish all that prophets foretell would come. Then, according to Premillennialists the Lord shall come once again to make all things new again as the new heaven and new earth come down from heaven.

My argument against this is that Christ did fulfill all that was prophesied of Him, and that His coming again belongs to what the prophets call the day of the LORD. Because the day of the Lord which pertains also to these last days has both a beginning and a last day for the day of the Lord and these last days when all things written of Him shall be finished.

Edit: Just because the final/last day of the Lord has not yet come, that does not mean that the day of the Lord has not come with these last days.

 

[WPM]

Why would the prophets of old prophesy two comings of Jesus since they prophesy only of "THE day of the LORD cometh"? Nowhere do they speak of the prophesied LORD coming two times. All that the prophets foretell concerning the LORD shall be fulfilled in this age/day/time when the LORD would come! In THE day/age/time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved!

The prophets saw faintly and distantly into the future. They did not have full clarity of the 2 Advents of Christ. They described what God showed them but failed to see the distance between these glorious happenings. But Christ opened the eyes of the Apostles so that they could clearly understand the Old Testament Scriptures and their fulfillment in Him.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Many Old Testament prophecies are layered, in that they have both an impending and an ultimate fulfillment.

 

[rwb]

The prophets saw faintly and distantly into the future. They did not have full clarity of the 2 Advents of Christ. They described what God showed them but failed to see the distance between these glorious happenings. But Christ opened the eyes of the Apostles so that they could clearly understand the Old Testament Scriptures and their fulfillment in Him.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Many Old Testament prophecies are layered, in that they have both an impending and an ultimate fulfillment.

How does this prove the day of the Lord the prophets foretell in the last days has not yet come, and will not come until Christ comes again?