The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

When and where have I ever denied TWO comings of Christ?

Nowhere. I didn't say that you did. Did you just speed read through people's posts or something? How is it that you so often misunderstand what people are saying?

What I deny is that the prophets of Old prophesy of TWO comings!

You need to be more clear when you say things like this. They did not knowingly and purposely prophesy of two comings of Christ. Is that what you mean? Surely, the day of the Lord that Joel prophesied in relation to being "great and very terrible" (Joel 2:11) correlates with the future day of the Lord when Christ returns and that will result in great and very terrible wrath upon unbelievers, as Paul and Peter wrote about, right? But, it's not specified there that it's referring to something in relation to the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is never explicitly referred to in the Old Testament. If that's what you're saying, then I agree. But, certainly, things that we now know are related to what will happen when He comes again are written about in the Old Testament, like the resurrection of the dead and the judgment and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

Their prophesy speaks only of ONE coming when all that is written of Him is fulfilled during the period of time they call "the day of the LORD". Since I've never mentioned the doctrine of PRE=TRIB in this thread why are you bringing it into my discussions as though I have?

Because you seemed to be talking about people believing in two future comings of the Lord, as they believe. You're not being clear in what you're saying. You didn't make it clear that the OT doesn't explicitly prophesy of two comings of Christ. I would agree with that. But, it does prophesy of things that will occur at His second coming without explicitly indicating that those things would occur as part of His second coming.

 

[rwb]

Nowhere. I didn't say that you did. Did you just speed read through people's posts or something? How is it that you so often misunderstand what people are saying?


You need to be more clear when you say things like this. They did not knowingly and purposely prophesy of two comings of Christ. Is that what you mean? Surely, the day of the Lord that Joel prophesied in relation to being "great and very terrible" (Joel 2:11) correlates with the future day of the Lord when Christ returns and that will result in great and very terrible wrath upon unbelievers, as Paul and Peter wrote about, right? But, it's not specified thYere that it's referring to something in relation to the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is never explicitly referred to in the Old Testament. If that's what you're saying, then I agree. But, certainly, things that we now know are related to what will happen when He comes again are written about in the Old Testament, like the resurrection of the dead and the judgment and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.


Because you seemed to be talking about people believing in two future comings of the Lord, as they believe. You're not being clear in what you're saying. You didn't make it clear that the OT doesn't explicitly prophesy of two comings of Christ. I would agree with that. But, it does prophesy of things that will occur at His second coming without explicitly indicating that those things would occur as part of His second coming.

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of! You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not. That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight! Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of!

If I misunderstood you, it wasn't on purpose. So, if anyone is guilty here, it's you for being unclear. And whether I misrepresented you or not doesn't change the fact that you often misrepresent the views of others. I'm not saying you do it on purpose, but you do.

You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not.

That's what you need to do. And you need to work on being more clear about what you're saying. I do try to read what you say carefully, but you just have no idea how unclear you are at times.

That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight!

LOL. Everyone here, including you, tries to set everyone else straight and that's why there are so many disagreements. Are you not trying to set everyone else straight in your many disagreements with many other people on this forum about various topics? Sure, you are. So what? If you feel you are called to be a Bible teacher and to correct false doctrine, then you can call that whatever you want. It doesn't matter to me what you call that.

Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

That is entirely your fault because of how overly sensitive you are. I try to have civil discussions with you, but you don't seem to be interested in that. You get so emotional about everything. Just calm down and let's be willing to agree to disagree about things calmly. Can you do that? I can. And I'd like to do that. And I've told you this. But, you continue to be inflammatory whenever talking to me. Don't blame me for that.

 

[Davidpt]

Stop accusing others of what you are guilty of! You really need to read the replies of others more carefully because you have a propensity to make it appear others have said things they have not. That may be because you try so hard to set everyone else straight! Yes, I'm using exclamation points because trying to have a discussion with you has become an exercise in futility.

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

See, you're not clear about what he was saying, either, yet he got upset with me just because I misunderstood what he said. He definitely has trouble with communicating clearly, but I guess that's somehow everyone else's fault.

 

[rwb]

Let me see if I understood you. When you said Premils need 2 comings in the OT--you basically meant something like this. Let's use Zechariah 14 as an example then.

In your mind Premils need to have Zechariah 14 involving the 2nd coming rather than the first coming, in order to make it appear there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming.

Are you meaning something along those lines? Or are you meaning something else altogether instead?

Yes, Premillennialists appear to believe some of what the prophets of Old foretell did not come to pass within the first advent of the Lord. Therefore, they reason there will be a second coming of Christ for one thousand years to this earth to finish all that prophets foretell would come. Then, according to Premillennialists the Lord shall come once again to make all things new again as the new heaven and new earth come down from heaven.

My argument against this is that Christ did fulfill all that was prophesied of Him, and that His coming again belongs to what the prophets call the day of the LORD. Because the day of the Lord which pertains also to these last days has both a beginning and a last day for the day of the Lord and these last days when all things written of Him shall be finished.

Edit: Just because the final/last day of the Lord has not yet come, that does not mean that the day of the Lord has not come with these last days.

 

[WPM]

Why would the prophets of old prophesy two comings of Jesus since they prophesy only of "THE day of the LORD cometh"? Nowhere do they speak of the prophesied LORD coming two times. All that the prophets foretell concerning the LORD shall be fulfilled in this age/day/time when the LORD would come! In THE day/age/time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved!

The prophets saw faintly and distantly into the future. They did not have full clarity of the 2 Advents of Christ. They described what God showed them but failed to see the distance between these glorious happenings. But Christ opened the eyes of the Apostles so that they could clearly understand the Old Testament Scriptures and their fulfillment in Him.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Many Old Testament prophecies are layered, in that they have both an impending and an ultimate fulfillment.

 

[rwb]

The prophets saw faintly and distantly into the future. They did not have full clarity of the 2 Advents of Christ. They described what God showed them but failed to see the distance between these glorious happenings. But Christ opened the eyes of the Apostles so that they could clearly understand the Old Testament Scriptures and their fulfillment in Him.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Many Old Testament prophecies are layered, in that they have both an impending and an ultimate fulfillment.

How does this prove the day of the Lord the prophets foretell in the last days has not yet come, and will not come until Christ comes again?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Premillennialists appear to believe some of what the prophets of Old foretell did not come to pass within the first advent of the Lord.

Are you saying that you don't believe there's any prophecy in the Old Testament that is unfulfilled? Note that I'm asking for clarification because of what you said here and not trying to make a statement about what you believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The prophets saw faintly and distantly into the future. They did not have full clarity of the 2 Advents of Christ. They described what God showed them but failed to see the distance between these glorious happenings. But Christ opened the eyes of the Apostles so that they could clearly understand the Old Testament Scriptures and their fulfillment in Him.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Many Old Testament prophecies are layered, in that they have both an impending and an ultimate fulfillment.

I agree completely. And, this is why the foundation of our doctrine should not be on those difficult to discern Old Testament prophecies that are not written in a clear, straightforward manner. Yet, those prophecies are the primary foundation of Premil doctrine. Amil doctrine, in contrast, is founded upon clear, straightforward scriptures that we use to help interpret these more obscure Old Testament prophecies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How does this prove the day of the Lord the prophets foretell in the last days has not yet come, and will not come until Christ comes again?

He is not denying that the time period that you refer to as "the day of the Lord" has not yet come. Do you understand that? He is like me in that he does not call that time period "the day of the Lord" like you do, but rather he, like me, calls it "the last days". He sees the day of the Lord as referring to the day Jesus returns in the future when He will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night. That is how Paul and Peter described the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[rwb]

Are you saying that you don't believe there's any prophecy in the Old Testament that is unfulfilled? Note that I'm asking for clarification because of what you said here and not trying to make a statement about what you believe.

The things the prophets of Old foretell that shall come to pass with Christ the Messiah, began to be fulfilled in the day of the Lord that Christ ushered in, and the day of the Lord in these last days is continuing to be fulfilled as time (a thousand years) marches on. Then when this allotted time given the day of the Lord in these last days expires the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound the thousand years have ended, the last day of the Lord will have come when Christ shall come again with fiery destruction. All this the prophets of Old foretell as the day of the Lord coming in these last days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The things the prophets of Old foretell that shall come to pass with Christ the Messiah, began to be fulfilled in the day of the Lord that Christ ushered in, and the day of the Lord in these last days is continuing to be fulfilled as time (a thousand years) marches on. Then when this allotted time given the day of the Lord in these last days expires the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound the thousand years have ended, the last day of the Lord will have come when Christ shall come again with fiery destruction. All this the prophets of Old foretell as the day of the Lord coming in these last days.

You didn't really answer my question, so I'll try again. Do you believe that there is any prophecy, or any part of any prophecy, in the Old Testament that is not yet fulfilled? I think your answer is yes because the Old Testament prophesies of the last days which we are still in today. Is that correct? I'm just looking for clear, straightforward answers here because of a desire to not misrepresent what you believe. The only way I can do that is if you answer my questions in a more straightforward manner.

 

[Davidpt]

The things the prophets of Old foretell that shall come to pass with Christ the Messiah, began to be fulfilled in the day of the Lord that Christ ushered in, and the day of the Lord in these last days is continuing to be fulfilled as time (a thousand years) marches on. Then when this allotted time given the day of the Lord in these last days expires the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound the thousand years have ended, the last day of the Lord will have come when Christ shall come again with fiery destruction. All this the prophets of Old foretell as the day of the Lord coming in these last days.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

But you want to pretend the day of Lord is something blessed . Wonder why this verse disagrees? Who should I believe? You or this verse?

The verse clearly and plainly says the DOTL is darkness, and not light. I'm pretty sure salvation involves light not darkness. Clearly, when the DOTL is meaning, the doors to salvation are no longer open. But you would have us believe that people are saved during the DOTL.

Do you not see that there is a woe attached to anyone that desires to see the DOTL? In your view, is a woe a good thing or a bad thing here? Do you desire to see the DOTL? Obviously, since you insist we have been living in the DOTL for the past 2000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

But you want to pretend the day of Lord is something blessed . Wonder why this verse disagrees? Who should I believe? You or this verse?

That matches up with 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. He tries to say that the day of the Lord leads up to the final day of the Lord, but I don't see these passages as referring to "the final day of the Lord". It's the last days that lead up to the day of the Lord, as passages like Acts 2:16-21 (which references Joel 2:28-32) and 2 Peter 3:3-13 indicate.

 

[rwb]

He is not denying that the time period that you refer to as "the day of the Lord" has not yet come. Do you understand that? He is like me in that he does not call that time period "the day of the Lord" like you do, but rather he, like me, calls it "the last days". He sees the day of the Lord as referring to the day Jesus returns in the future when He will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night. That is how Paul and Peter described the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

You acknowledge the day of the Lord has come, but then you deny these last days are the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come. The prophets themselves link the day of the Lord coming with the last days.

Acts 2:16-17 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[rwb]

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

But you want to pretend the day of Lord is something blessed . Wonder why this verse disagrees? Who should I believe? You or this verse?

The verse clearly and plainly says the DOTL is darkness, and not light. I'm pretty sure salvation involves light not darkness. Clearly, when the DOTL is meaning, the doors to salvation are no longer open. But you would have us believe that people are saved during the DOTL.

Do you not see that there is a woe attached to anyone that desires to see the DOTL? In your view, is a woe a good thing or a bad thing here? Do you desire to see the DOTL? Obviously, since you insist we have been living in the DOTL for the past 2000 years.

Why would I want to pretend the last/final day of the day of the Lord that came in these last days has already come? The FINAL or LAST DAY of the Day of the Lord shall be darkness when it finally comes when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound. The woe shall be upon all who shall be unaware of it coming. Yes, I believe we have been living in the DOTL since the advent of Christ when He came in His day/age/time to usher in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

 

[rwb]

That matches up with 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. He tries to say that the day of the Lord leads up to the final day of the Lord, but I don't see these passages as referring to "the final day of the Lord". It's the last days that lead up to the day of the Lord, as passages like Acts 2:16-21 (which references Joel 2:28-32) and 2 Peter 3:3-13 indicate.

As I've already said the prophets of Old connect the day of the Lord with these last days. The DOTL through the words of the prophet Joel shall be in these last days when whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered. The DOTL is described as being both a blessing and a day of wrath depending upon the state of man's soul. Therefore the DOTL is both a time for deliverance and on the last DOTL a time of God's wrath.

Joel 2:28-31 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Micah 4:1 (KJV) But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Isaiah 2:2 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You acknowledge the day of the Lord has come,

No, I didn't. I acknowledge that the time period that YOU call the day of the Lord has come. I call it the last days, as scripture does. Why do I have to spell everything out to you all the time?

but then you deny these last days are the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come. The prophets themselves link the day of the Lord coming with the last days.

Acts 2:16-17 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I never said that the fulfillment of the above has not begun yet. Your decision to use biblical terms in a way that the Bible itself does not is causing unnecessary confusion.

 

[rwb]

No, I didn't. I acknowledge that the time period that YOU call the day of the Lord has come. I call it the last days, as scripture does. Why do I have to spell everything out to you all the time?


I never said that the fulfillment of the above has not begun yet. Your decision to use biblical terms in a way that the Bible itself does not is causing unnecessary confusion.

The Prophets of Old call connect these last days with the DOTL, I quote from them!!! Why do I have to spell everything out for you ALL the time?

You never say the fulfillment of the above what has not begun??? You have repeatedly said the DOTL will come when Christ comes again! But then you also acknowledge that much of what the prophets foretell has come in these last days??? Things that pertain to the DOTL!