The corner

[Hiddenthings]

I’m referring to the unitarian branch of Messianic Judaism. They are Jews who believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah but reject the liberty believers have as expressed in the letters of Paul.

So they worship the God of Jacob (YHWH) and accept Jesus as their Messiah but still hold to the Law, feasts and rituals? Is this the liberty you are referencing? Would you say the same of the SDA keeping of the Sabbath?

 

[Matthias]

So they worship the God of Jacob (YHWH) and accept Jesus as their Messiah but still hold to the Law, feasts and rituals? Is this the liberty you are referencing?

Yes.

Would you say the same of the SDA keeping of the Sabbath?

To some extent.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes.



To some extent.

Okay so its the keeping of the Jewish traditions which you reject.

 

[Matthias]

Okay so its the keeping of the Jewish traditions which you reject.

As a requirement, yes.

 

[Hiddenthings]

As a requirement, yes.

Could it be possible that the God of Israel views these practices more favorably, highlighting a deeper dichotomy between them and the traditions and customs of Catholicism?

 

[Matthias]

Could it be possible that the God of Israel views these practices more favorably, highlighting a deeper dichotomy between them and the traditions and customs of Catholicism?

That calls for speculation, which I’m not big on doing.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That calls for speculation, which I’m not big on doing.

I was thinking to continue that line of thought, but this will do for now.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Matthias

Would you place Jewish monotheism and Catholicism in the same corner?

​

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias

Would you place Jewish monotheism and Catholicism in the same corner?

No.

 

[Aunty Jane]

“Trinity is really only a big thing on the internet.“

That doesn’t speak well for the Trinity. If I were a trinitarian pastor I would do whatever I could to change that.

For decades, I’ve publicly called for church history to be taught in all churches and privately in homes.

I’m not a trinitarian. (See what I did there?) I‘ll be content when no one ever speaks of the Trinity again. It has nothing to do with my faith and you don’t think it’s a salvation issue.

Would you welcome a “sheep stealer” into your corner?

Apparently any topic is an excuse for an anti-JW rant….what a shame that none of what this deluded person (PS95) says is true….twisted half truths with a liberal splash of emotional appeal…..good grief! Do they ever stop?

The trinity is a game changer if one wants to identify as a “Christian”…..according to Christendom, you cannot be a Christian if you don’t accept this doctrine, introduced into official church teaching some 300 years after Christ’s death. How did it take over 300 years to be officially recognized by an apostate church, if it was the truth all along? It was not accepted quickly or easily, as Arius himself found out…..it only found its feet through much controversy.

As a whole, Christendom fails to be united regardless of the main foundations of their belief system (1 Cor 1:10)…none of which existed in Jewish monotheism…..there was “one God”…..the dead were actually dead…and there was no hell of eternal torment. These are what separate Jewish monotheism from Christendom which is not even close to the “Christianity“ that Jesus and his apostles taught.

An apostasy was foretold, and an apostasy took place, so long ago that no one questions the foundational beliefs of those in Christendom, yet not one of them can be found in Christ’s teachings.

Jesus did not come to introduce a new religion or a new god…..he came to teach the truth about the God he himself served, (Acts 4:27) and to introduce a new covenant that they knew though the prophet Jeremiah, was coming. (Jer 31:31-33)

Judaism was shown not to be the true faith by Jesus himself…..and like those defectors back then who adopted all manner of man-made traditions and passed them off as the true faith, (Matt 15:7-9) so Christendom has simply repeated history. Neither are doing the will of the Father, but are mirror images of one another, under the influence of “the god of this world” who has the ability to “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”. (2 Cor 4:3-4)…these are the goats who think they are sheep. (Matt 7:21-23)

Why are “few” found on the road to life? (Matt 7:13-14) It means that the majority are on the wrong road.

 

[Hiddenthings]

He continues,

”Believing in the Trinity is not believing in three Gods. Believers in the Trinity are also Monotheists. They too believe in one God. They believe that the one God exists in three ‘Persons’, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

The reader needs to know in advance that I agree with what he says here about believing in the Trinity.

Do they belong in the same corner? The axis of the question is dichotomy.

Matthias, the bold text above, is this your support of David's definition of the Trinity? Hope you don't mind the questions - rather this than jumping to conclusions.

 

[Matthias]

Matthias, the bold text above, is this your support of David's definition of the Trinity? Hope you don't mind the questions - rather this than jumping to conclusions.

I was expressing my agreement with him that trinitarianism is a form of monotheism and that trinitarians don’t worship three Gods. Where we differed is he thinks the Trinity and Jewish monotheism is a false dichotomy and I think it is a true dichotomy.

I don’t know if he endorses historical orthodox trinitarianism or not. I’ve not asked him and I haven’t heard him say.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Apparently any topic is an excuse for an anti-JW rant….what a shame that none of what this deluded person says is true….twisted half truths with a liberal splash of emotional appeal…..good grief! Do they ever stop?

The trinity is a game changer if one wants to identify as a “Christian”…..according to Christendom, you cannot be a Christian if you don’t accept this doctrine, introduced into official church teaching some 300 years after Christ’s death. How did it take over 300 years to be officially recognized by an apostate church, if it was the truth all along? It was not accepted quickly or easily, as Arius himself found out…..it only found its feet through much controversy.

As a whole, Christendom fails to be united regardless of the main foundations of their belief system (1 Cor 1:10)…none of which existed in Jewish monotheism…..there was “one God”…..the dead were actually dead…and there was no hell of eternal torment. These are what separate Jewish monotheism from Christendom which is not even close to the “Christianity“ that Jesus and his apostles taught.

An apostasy was foretold, and an apostasy took place, so long ago that no one questions the foundational beliefs of those in Christendom, yet not one of them can be found in Christ’s teachings.

Jesus did not come to introduce a new religion or a new god…..he came to teach the truth about the God he himself served, (Acts 4:27) and to introduce a new covenant that they knew though the prophet Jeremiah, was coming. (Jer 31:31-33)

Judaism was shown not to be the true faith by Jesus himself…..and like those defectors back then who adopted all manner of man-made traditions and passed them off as the true faith, (Matt 15:7-9) so Christendom has simply repeated history. Neither are doing the will of the Father, but are mirror images of one another, under the influence of “the god of this world” who has the ability to “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”. (2 Cor 4:3-4)…these are the goats who think they are sheep. (Matt 7:21-23)

Why are “few” found on the road to life? (Matt 7:13-14) It means that the majority are on the wrong road.

I appreciate what you’ve shared above, and I find myself in agreement with it. I'd like to ask a question one that I've been wrestling with for many years. I don’t believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses hold the complete truth, and to be honest, I’m not sure any denomination can claim with certainty to possess all of it. While I could raise questions about some of the Witnesses' beliefs, I feel that would likely lead us into a debate over doctrinal differences (wrong thread!), rather than focusing on the common ground we share such as the truth about the state of the dead and the hope of the coming resurrection.

Do you believe there is a degree of truth required to be responsible for salvation? Do you in your body hold key beliefs which you would say are critical for salvation? For instance, within your body would you commonly speak as though only JW's will be saved?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I was expressing my agreement with him that trinitarianism is a form of monotheism and that trinitarians don’t worship three Gods. Where we differed is he thinks the Trinity and Jewish monotheism is a false dichotomy and I think it is a true dichotomy.

I don’t know if he endorses historical orthodox trinitarianism or not. I’ve not asked him and I haven’t heard him say.

What I’ve found interesting over my 15 years of involvement in various forums is the sheer number of interpretations and versions of the Trinity that exist. If you've studied first century religions, you'd know it was a time marked by significant religious diversity and confusion even within Judaism itself, where multiple schools of thought and teachings were being promoted. We ought not to be surprised that his second coming will see the same. One Bible many religions!...and yet, one faith, baptism and so on.

 

[Matthias]

What I’ve found interesting over my 15 years of involvement in various forums is the sheer number of interpretations and versions of the Trinity that exist.

As an outsider now, I would place them all in the trinitarian corner. I wouldn’t place any of them in the Jewish monotheism corner.

If you've studied first century religions, you'd know it was a time marked by significant religious diversity and confusion even within Judaism itself, where multiple schools of thought and teachings were being promoted. We ought not to be surprised that his second coming will see the same. One Bible many religions!...and yet, one faith, baptism and so on.

 

[Matthias]

What’s interesting to me about this thread @Hiddenthings is that some of them want to be in my corner but they aren’t willing to do what it takes to be in my corner.

Most of them want me to be in their corner but I’m unwilling to do what it takes to be in (return to) their corner.

The Trinity and Jewish monotheism false dichotomy argument either blurs or obliterates the lines. In my opinion, this argument does a disservice to both.

The Trinity and Jewish monotheism true dichotomy argument insists on maintaining the lines. In my opinion, this argument does a good service to both.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I appreciate what you’ve shared above, and I find myself in agreement with it. I'd like to ask a question one that I've been wrestling with for many years. I don’t believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses hold the complete truth, and to be honest, I’m not sure any denomination can claim with certainty to possess all of it. While I could raise questions about some of the Witnesses' beliefs, I feel that would likely lead us into a debate over doctrinal differences (wrong thread!), rather than focusing on the common ground we share such as the truth about the state of the dead and the hope of the coming resurrection.

Do you believe there is a degree of truth required to be responsible for salvation? Do you in your body hold key beliefs which you would say are critical for salvation? For instance, within your body would you commonly speak as though only JW's will be saved?

The condition of the dead and the resurrection are key doctrinal beliefs that have not transfrerred over from the original Jewish faith to Christendom’s beliefs, on those points. They have adopted pagan Greek philosophical beliefs instead of the clear teachings about what happens when we die, and what the resurrection actually means…..it is a restoration of life, rather than a continuation of it. There are no immortal souls….because a “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing mortal creature, not some spiritual entity that simply dwells in our body to go somewhere else when we die. There is nowhere else to go.
Only Christ’s elect are chosen for a role in heaven….(Rev 20:6)

I know that what we believe must be 100% truth, because if it’s not, then it isn’t the truth…..there are not many versions of one truth…..there is just one. Do you believe that God lacks the ability to reveal it to those who show a willingness to learn it? (John 6:44, 65)

 

[Aunty Jane]

What I’ve found interesting over my 15 years of involvement in various forums is the sheer number of interpretations and versions of the Trinity that exist.

If it is a true Bible teaching, it would be clearly stated and supported….but it isn’t. Every Scripture used to prove it has been twisted to fit the doctrine, not the other way around. Their proof statements are always ambiguous and contradicted by other Scripture. Truth does not contradict itself.

If you've studied first century religions, you'd know it was a time marked by significant religious diversity and confusion even within Judaism itself, where multiple schools of thought and teachings were being promoted. We ought not to be surprised that his second coming will see the same. One Bible many religions!...and yet, one faith, baptism and so on.

First century Judaism was exposed by Jesus as a sham religion, big on legality, showy displays of piety and short on truth and mercy. (Matt 23) He said that they made their converts twice as much fit for Gehenna that they were. This means that we need to define “Gehenna”, as Christendom has fashioned its “hellfire” doctrine on Jesus’ reference to this “lake of fire”.
So what do you make of this destination? It is reserved for the devil and his demons, but the “goats” go in first. Where and what is it? What did the Jews believe about death as recorded in their Scripture?


In Christendom, there is no “one Lord, one faith, one baptism“ as there are multiples of all three.
Truth does not exist if falsehood is part of it. Are we left to decide these things on our own?

 

[Hiddenthings]

The condition of the dead and the resurrection are key doctrinal beliefs that have not transfrerred over from the original Jewish faith to Christendom’s beliefs, on those points.

Agree.

They have adopted pagan Greek philosophical beliefs instead of the clear teachings about what happens when we die, and what the resurrection actually means…..it is a restoration of life, rather than a continuation of it.

Agree

There are no immortal souls….because a “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing mortal creature, not some spiritual entity that simply dwells in our body to go somewhere else when we die. There is nowhere else to go.

Agree.

Only Christ’s elect are chosen for a role in heaven….(Rev 20:6)

Disagree - won't go into this here and now

I know that what we believe must be 100% truth, because if it’s not, then it isn’t the truth…..there are not many versions of one truth…..there is just one. Do you believe that God lacks the ability to reveal it to those who show a willingness to learn it? (John 6:44, 65)

If you came to realise that your religious group was wrong on some major doctrinal points, how would you go about processing that?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are we left to decide these things on our own?

You have more to say...?