The Crippling Effects of Christian Dogma - Mindless Parroting of Apologetics
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice
Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice? What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life? The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion. A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal. - Does God honor a decision based on...
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Augustin56
Well-Known Member
I've heard that before and I sometimes wonder if they are confusing "faith" with "intellectual assent" to the reality of Jesus vs. true faith which governs how we live our lives, etc.? For example, I've seen those who claim to believe, but you'd never know it by the way they live. It's just, "I believe therefore, I'm going to heaven. I've marked off that checkbox."New topic:
The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice
Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice? What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life? The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion. A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal. - Does God honor a decision based on...
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There's something to that.
The extortion gospel topic is about the use of fear to get converts.
Using the threat of hell to force people into a decision.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Lets find out.... if you are lying again.
Do you believe that a sinner has to be forgiven their sin, and be born again on this Earth, = before they die, if they want to go to heaven?
Thats a "yes or no"...in case you are confused... @St. SteVen
That's a loaded question, as usual. (with a slimy lawyer-type demand for a yes/no answer)
You are assuming that everyone has had the opportunity in this lifetime to "save themselves".
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of your evangelical requirements.
Furthermore, no one can renew a relationship with God in this lifetime unless He draws them.
And forgiveness of sin was purchased through the atonement. All sinners have already been forgiven.
The death penalty for sin is paid in full.
And no one goes straight to "heaven" in the end. There will be an age of evaluation/judgment/restoration.
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Being reconciled by Christ's death, is it necessary for you to receive the reconciliation? That's one of those pesky yes or no questions.
Here's another. Must you be reborn to see heaven?
Much love!
I didn't realize you hold to heretical Catholic doctrines like purgatory, as if you have to add to Christ's death.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Christians will have no issue answering my simple Question. @St. SteVen
So, what you posted, is not the answer to my question.
Its a dodge, a deflection.
Here is the question again...
""Do you believe that a sinner has to be forgiven their sin, and be born again on this Earth, = before they die, if they want to go to heaven?""
God draws everyone to The Cross, like this..
Jesus said......"if i be lifted up (on The Cross) i will draw ALL people to me".
Now, i realize that you have a limited viewpoint regarding God's Omnipotence and Omnipresence.....which is why you will remain unable to believe that God can and will reach all of Mankind with The Gospel.
But He will., and as soon as the last Gentile is reached, God is going to Rapture the Bride and the Beast will show up .
This is very soon.
So, what i suggest you do, is not try to lead anyone else to Hell, by telling them your "Universalist's" lie that they will ALL go to heaven, in the end. @St. SteVen
St. SteVen said:
And no one goes straight to "heaven" in the end. There will be an age of evaluation/judgment/restoration.
Where did you get that idea?
Don't you believe in a judgement of works?
Everyone throughout history will be judged. Everyone will witness this.
It will require an entire age.
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
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And no one goes straight to "heaven" in the end. There will be an age of evaluation/judgment/restoration.
"... heretical Catholic doctrines like purgatory..." - LOL
Where did you get that idea?
Don't you believe in a judgement of works?
Everyone throughout history will be judged. Everyone will witness this.
It will require an entire age.
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
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But that's not what you said. So again you are being dishonest.
This is an unhealthy pattern that you display, misrepresenting others. I'd like to hope that you may come to see the significance of this personally.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
You were not asked if everyone goes straight to heaven, in the end.
You were asked this.........so, here it is again. @St. SteVen
""Do you believe that a sinner has to be forgiven their sin, and be born again on this Earth, = before they die, if they want to go to heaven?""
You put an awful lot of credit on the term "born again".
It only appears in John chapter 3 and 1 Peter chapter 1.
You also assume that believers go directly to heaven without facing judgment first.
Your loaded question is unraveling.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually Jesus does..
He told you.....>"You must be born again".......
So, the more you refuse to answer my simple question that any Christian will know..... the more we see you as you are....
Think on that....
So, what you posted, is not the answer to my question.
Its a dodge, a deflection.
Here is the question again...
""Do you believe that a sinner has to be forgiven ALL their sin, and be born again on this Earth, = before they die, if they want to go to heaven?""
It does say in a few of these
Luke 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Similarly it says,
Prov 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
Jesus does tell us not to fear man but tells us whom to fear here
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. (Rev 11:18, same)
When Paul shared about faith in Christ here
Acts 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
Felix trembled, which means
- thrown into fear, terrified, affrighted
Acts 24:26 He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.
The fear of the LORD is to depart from evil, the fear of the LORD is a good thing, it is the beginning of wisdom.
It says, He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Fear hath torment, as in correction or punishment in it.
Which makes sense, if he that feareth is not made perfect in love (wherein we are perfected) then we also know the following
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
And so perfect love (as we are perfected in the same) is evidenced by whoso keepeth his word.
And so perfect love casts out fear.
Abraham even feared what an absence of the fear of God would bring to him, when he gave only half the truth concerning his wife (who he only revealed was his sister)
Gen 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. |
But the nation did have a fear of God, as Abimelch reasoned with God when confronted in taking Abraham's wife
Gen 20.
[3] But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
[4] But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
[5] Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
[6] And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
[7] Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
[8] Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.
[9] Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
[10] And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
[11] And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
Where there is no fear of God in someone like Jezebel would just kill the LORD's prophets, because they have no fear of Him without which those who have not a love of God in them are given over to do evil things.
I dont understand why the fear of the LORD gets bad press alot of the time.
Edit:typo
Is God a tyrant?
Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)
Stumbled upon a word I rarely see used. Magnanimous. I sought a complete definition. (see below) When I found it, I realized that it fit my personal view of God. God is magnanimous. Defined as: Highly moral, especially in showing kindness or forgiveness, as in overlooking insults or not...
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Where did Jesus imply this when he told us to fear God?Is God a tyrant?
Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)
Stumbled upon a word I rarely see used. Magnanimous. I sought a complete definition. (see below) When I found it, I realized that it fit my personal view of God. God is magnanimous. Defined as: Highly moral, especially in showing kindness or forgiveness, as in overlooking insults or not...
[
You equate fearing God as being a tyrant?
Would God being considered a tyrant towards this individual who shows no mercy?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Keeping in mind, fear hath torment and God just delivered him over to tormentors
And for what? because he had no fear of the LORD who delights in mercy, and this previously forgiven servant became the wicked servant in this picture in showing no mercy
And Jesus said,
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
James agrees
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Theres righteous judgment for you, not tyranny.
The fear of the LORD is a good thing, and the man was obviously not made perfect in love, and so we see he is given over to the tormenters, and fear has just that (torment)
Edit: typo
The real question is can you stand before the Lord?New topic:
The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice
Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice? What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life? The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion. A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal. - Does God honor a decision based on...
[
Life is a series of assumptions, statements of faith, a balance of fear and boldness that things will not be dangerous.
We all know we will die, one day, but live in the hope of things that bring us joy.
So in the place of reality, where all contradictions can no longer be hidden how much of a person remains, or even
exists. A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.
We all use the parts of our lives we believe in as our defence our best foot forward.
Look on the streets, its our clothes, its our cars, its our houses, its the size and importance of our office, its how many
people will agree with everything we say, no matter how absurd.
The Lord of all creation came as a son, a man with no possessions, just words, teachings, ideas.
He chose friends from those who worked for a living but wished to do good.
His message was friendship that took 3 years to convey, and at the end one of His best friends said he would never
let Him die. This is about who we are and learning to be real with one another.
Jesus brought a warning. We need to be transformed before we meet the Father, or else we will be rubbish, thrown
away. The contradiction many miss is its not like sinners can stand whole before the Lord, but rather they are flawed
useless unless the reality of love comes to their hearts and changes them. And this love is the love that comes through
the Lord and repentance, that tames the heart and opens the eyes.
Believing means seeing this and following it. To some they feel the power of the words but do not understand what
it means or how they can obtain it. In essence our value is because Jesus loves us, and from this springs His life
within us. Trying to be good is like forcing something that is not real into existence. Seeing people in need and meeting
that need is doing good because one loves and desires to help. To achieve this ones eyes have to be on the other
not oneself and know how the help makes a difference.
Fear is just intimidation into a series of statements not knowing why or what is their meaning.
Agree.
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe? Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church? There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about. Brainwashing, obviously. Not to say...
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Follow-up to previous topics:
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.
Does questioning Christianity lead to Atheism? (depends)
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
Jesus is the answer. - But what's the question?
Source or Resource? - Understanding the difference
Inerancy - Define, or dismiss?
DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?
If our interpretation of scripture sidesteps common sense, did we get it right?
In BIBLE we trust? - Misplaced allegiance?
Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?
The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."
The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >
If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - Agree, or disagree? - LOL
The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat
Unity of the faith - at what cost?
Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity
Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey
Unity in exclusivity is mere tribalism - Nothing special there
Is there a cure for my religious upbringing? - other than atheism, I mean.
Any questions? - LOL
But seriously, I see this problem all too frequently on the forum. Parroting mindless dogma.
And claiming it is what God says, when the poster knows full well that it is a matter of their OWN personal opinion. (sigh)
What is the cure to this crippling malady? Do we need to pray for spiritual healing for our comrades?
When will they wake up and realize we are ONE body under the headship of Christ?
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.
Does questioning Christianity lead to Atheism? (depends)
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
Jesus is the answer. - But what's the question?
Source or Resource? - Understanding the difference
Inerancy - Define, or dismiss?
DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?
If our interpretation of scripture sidesteps common sense, did we get it right?
In BIBLE we trust? - Misplaced allegiance?
Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?
The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."
The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >
If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - Agree, or disagree? - LOL
The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat
Unity of the faith - at what cost?
Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity
Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey
Unity in exclusivity is mere tribalism - Nothing special there
Is there a cure for my religious upbringing? - other than atheism, I mean.
Any questions? - LOL
But seriously, I see this problem all too frequently on the forum. Parroting mindless dogma.
And claiming it is what God says, when the poster knows full well that it is a matter of their OWN personal opinion. (sigh)
What is the cure to this crippling malady? Do we need to pray for spiritual healing for our comrades?
When will they wake up and realize we are ONE body under the headship of Christ?
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