# The Dark Glass #

[Helen]

Firstly I just want to say how much I enjoy this Site.
We are a diversity of people and personalities…and that keeps it ‘interesting' and ‘healthy’.
There are for sure a few of what is called ‘colourful characters’. Some have made me laugh out loud. I must say I prefer that to the butting of heads.

The only thing that I haven’t ever got used to yet are the people who feel that they must always challenge and correct what other believers believe and write. (unless it's in the debate forum! )
Probably like most on here, I’ve been of Christian sites for about 15 years, maybe more. And I much prefer the :- “ Sorry, I just can’t agree with you on that because I see the scripture ’this way’”. And the discussion continues by each stating their differences and why. That to me is fun. But maybe I am not hardened yet to the aggressive way of exchanges. Like :- “ This is what the bible says, and if you see it differently you are totally wrong..and in error and we 'just 'make up our own rules as we go along.' "
Two different people,more than once , have said..”why do people say that they have heard something from the Lord, and yet the Lord tells someone else something different"…etc etc

As I see it, …. Anyone that believes that they have the bible "locked down and all correct" is totally deluded. None of us do!!

Maybe I am out of the loop and naive, but I actually thought that all Christians knew that as Paul says in :- 1 Cor 13:9 - "For we ‘know' in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. For NOW we 'see' through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW 'I know' in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "

NONE of us have the whole part. Paul makes this very clear….we all just have bits…together we have the whole…but we don’t yet seem as God Church, to have got it all together.
But God will have His Church, and Jesus will have His Bride, without spot or wrinkle.

We see through a darkened glass…no one sees clearly…but, we have all met those who believe that they really do…and , in no uncertain terms feel very free to tell others that they are wrong and they are not seeing clearly.
This is a dichotomy because on the one hand they say they ‘know’ and believe everything that the bible says…yet on the other hand they obviously don’t believe what Paul said to all of us…which is, that no one can see other than, through a darkened glass, fuzzy , until the Lord reveals all, clearly.


My two cents.

 

[FHII]

We see through a darkened glass…no one sees clearly

The glass isn't darkened. The glass is clear; its our vision that is darkly.

Its not the word that is dark or unclear. It is clear... And its absolutely true that when we can see and read the Bible clearly, we will indeed see him face to face.

Of course when Paul wrote that he had no Bible... He, Peter, James, John and the rest were writing it. It was impossible for any of these men to see the glass and what part he did see was dark.

 

[rrfenn]

By Grace, yes, knowledge alone may not help. It may even make us arrogant and proud. I like to say with kind David that tasting the Lord makes us say He is good. "I have thoroughly tested your promises and that is why I love them so much" Ps 119:140 (LB).

 

[Helen]

The glass isn't darkened. The glass is clear; its our vision that is darkly.

Its not the word that is dark or unclear. It is clear... And its absolutely true that when we can see and read the Bible clearly, we will indeed see him face to face.

Of course when Paul wrote that he had no Bible... He, Peter, James, John and the rest were writing it. It was impossible for any of these men to see the glass and what part he did see was dark.

Okay, I'm listening....I like that it is us who don't see clearly..it not the glass that is dark. I can agree there. I like that. We do not see clearly, individually. We need the whole Body. Yes?

You don't think that we each individually can see clearly do you?....or that a person by themselves can have 'all true'? I cannot go there.
I believe God has designed it so that we all need each other.
I believe Paul knew all the OT and we either believe he had a clear ear to God's Spirit to write most of the NT , or we may as well throw it out. Right?
If he says :- For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "
Then I believe it.

Are we close?

 

[pia]

As I see it, …. Anyone that believes that they have the bible "locked down and all correct" is totally deluded. None of us do!

Amen to that too ! You have a wonderful way of expressing things very clearly, much appreciated....

 

[Armadillo]

“ This is what the bible says, and if you see it differently you are totally wrong..and in error and we 'just 'make up our own rules as we go along.' "

And that's where I tend to tune out, it's not a fruitful exchange. Yes, it's aggressive and annoying and not something I haven't heard hundreds of times before but it's their cop out, their saving face when they have nothing to say because they have no clue what is being discussed. The glass is just too dark for them to see through. The accusation of "you're following a false god, a false gospel, yadayadayada" kills the thread, their mission is accomplished and they turn tail and run.

We see through a darkened glass…no one sees clearly…

I am in agreement with what FHll has to say about this and just to add my 2cents, they also still had the temple standing so they were still reminded of the law, and that could be why they saw through a glass darkly? We don't have a temple standing but for legalistic Christians, the temple is standing and they don't see through a clear glass, they don't get to see face to face and they can only know in part.

But God will have His Church, and Jesus will have His Bride, without spot or wrinkle.

Doesn't He already? Not looking for a debate.

that no one can see other than, through a darkened glass, fuzzy , until the Lord reveals all, clearly.

Can the Lord not reveal all while we are still alive and breathing or does He reveal all only when we draw our last breath? Not looking for a debate.

 

[Helen]

Thanks for yours Armadillo

"ByGrace" said: ↑
But God will have His Church, and Jesus will have His Bride, without spot or wrinkle.

Doesn't He already? Not looking for a debate.

Yes, He has the Church , and as Revelation says:- " The bride has made herself ready", right now I don't think the Bride is "without spot or wrinkle". Do you?
If you do, then good grief what a fragmented mess we are.

Can the Lord not reveal all while we are still alive and breathing or does He reveal all only when we draw our last breath?

I believe He has, but not to one person...not the Pope, not whoever your favourite preacher is ..no one single person .....that makes a joke of The Body, 'every joint supplying'..I can't go there.
I believe in the Body of Christ . Not looking for a debate LOL

 

[FHII]

Okay, I'm listening....I like that it is us who don't see clearly..it not the glass that is dark. I can agree there. I like that. We do not see clearly, individually. We need the whole Body. Yes?

You don't think that we each individually can see clearly do you?....or that a person by themselves can have 'all true'? I cannot go there.
I believe God has designed it so that we all need each other.
I believe Paul knew all the OT and we either believe he had a clear ear to God's Spirit to write most of the NT , or we may as well throw it out. Right?
If he says :- For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "
Then I believe it.

Are we close?

Hmmm... Yea. Not sure I understand it all (there's my "darkly") but perhaps.

Peter and John both comnented that we know all things... I believe that. Yet Peter talked about stirring up our pure minds by way of remembrance. So I am a guy who knows everything who's talking to a gal who knows everything. We just have spiritual amnesia. Its ok... We will get it back!

But yea... You may be on to something. There are 4 gospels each with a different vantage point. Paul didn't have everything that needed to be said which is why John, Peter, Jude and James were commissioned. We have the books of Sameul, Chronicles and Kings which deal with the same time period and subjects... So clearly God isn't about dispersing all his knowledge to one person. At least not all the time.

 

[Helen]

Hmmm... Yea. Not sure I understand it all (there's my "darkly") but perhaps.

Peter and John both comnented that we know all things... I believe that. Yet Peter talked about stirring up our pure minds by way of remembrance. So I am a guy who knows everything who's talking to a gal who knows everything. We just have spiritual amnesia. Its ok... We will get it back!

But yea... You may be on to something. There are 4 gospels each with a different vantage point. Paul didn't have everything that needed to be said which is why John, Peter, Jude and James were commissioned. We have the books of Sameul, Chronicles and Kings which deal with the same time period and subjects... So clearly God isn't about dispersing all his knowledge to one person. At least not all the time.

Good, thank you for that. Enjoyed your Bold above.

Yes, we are very close I think,...in how we see this.

 

[rrfenn]

By Grace, yes, knowledge alone may not help. It may even make us arrogant and proud. I like to say with kind David that tasting the Lord makes us say He is good. "I have thoroughly tested your promises and that is why I love them so much" Ps 119:140 (LB).

thank you for the likes

 

[breathofdesire]

I think Paul is saying, that no one see's clearly. Not even him.

 

[Helen]

thank you for the likes

I like to aknowledge when someone has written something which is a blessing.
Often I don't have enough to say to actually make a written reply to them, but I do like to let the person know that I read their post, and appreciated it. And a "like" is a nice quick way to show that.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Frank Lee]

Thank you for your post. It's true we don't see everything clearly. God is too big to see all of Him. The part I've seen is wonderful. I've found in four decades that those who have been hurt the most have the most to offer. Jesus said "he that is forgiven much loves much".

I was 33 when He came to me with His convicting power. He told me "my son gave His life for you when He was only 33. I want Him to start living in you at the same age". And so He did.

There's no greater place to be with Him than living constantly in His peace. I lived without that peace for those 33 long years. Beset by demonic attacks, generational curses. My grandmother had a familiar spirit and made tables walk around without assistance. Those things were visited upon me as a child and I was filled with fears. Fears that followed me into manhood. Jesus arrived outside of any church and saved me. I didn't know what had happened to me until I looked it up in the Bible. Then He baptized me in His wonderful Holy Spirit of promise and again I had to search the scriptures to find out what had happened.

Yes its true we do see through a smoked glass as it were. But God gives clear places through that glass for previews of things to come. One thing. The gift of simplicity will never be topped by more learning, more revelation and so forth. Having that child's faith and belief will not, cannot be surpassed.

Watchman Nee, Chinese evangelist, scholar and teacher was last heard from by a released prisoner from a communist prison in China. He heard brother Nee singing psalms from a distant cell. Watchman lamented that even though he was a scholar of the Bible, the various languages, everything regarding the faith he yet lacked. The ignorant uneducated villagers and fishermen of remote China seemed he said, to have a much closer relationship with the savior than he did. Because of their simplicity they just believed. No striving amongst themselves about who was greatest, who had read the most Biblical commentaries, who was the cleverest at memorizing scripture.

There is no competition for last place. No one is wrestling the servant for his position. Were Jesus here in the flesh today He would go unnoticed. Unnoticed except by those He touched with His incomprehensible love.

 

[Helen]

AMEN @Frank Lee ...wonderful testimony brother, Yay God!!
So glad to hear of your mention of Watchman Nee. I remember reading his life story "Against The Tide" And we still have all his other books...in fact we cut or teeth on his books back in the sixties.
He had amazing insight. Out of all of his writings there are only a few things that I dumped overboard. But most is still 'a part of me.'
I still remember his teaching about learning how to dwell in the inner chamber of out spirit with God, in quietness and peace, while the world went on madly and nosily around us and even our own life being "busy"..always stay in the spirit.
He likened the body as the Outer court, the soul as the Holy Place , and The Spirit as the Holy of Holies.
Loved him, loved Corrie Ten Boom...and also Isabel Khun ...sigh...I must find time to re read some of these old 'sign-posts-along-the-way' books over the winter...I haven't read any of them for years and years!!
Thanks for the memories Frank.

 

[Frank Lee]

I read against the tide and all or most of the others. The Normal Christian life us a good one.

My brother worked with a woman whose parents were missionaries to Africa in the 20's and 30's. They wrote a book "Before we kill and eat you" about their hair raising, miraculous ministry in that dark place.

Amazon still carries it by H. B. Garlock. A very worthwhile read. Lots of supernatural deliverances. Once they were ambushed by a murderous cannibalistic tribe. Then the attackers ran away. Later they made a peaceful contact. The tribe said they ran away from the giant warriors of light with flaming swords.

Another time they were captured by a tribe of cannibals and their medicine man or shaman made a long violent speech which Garlock could not understand. The speech was obvious though "do you have anything to say on your behalf before we kill and eat you"? Was the obvious translation. Garlock said he began to shake and stood slowly to his feet. He began to speak in their language. One he didn't know. He was already baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues but this experience was new.

As he spoke the violent warriors fell dead silent. He continued to speak motioning, pointing and his voice rising and falling. This went on for awhile then stopped. He collapsed onto the ground. The shaman bowed over and came doing obeisance. Indeed the whole tribe extended their hands to the missionary and his helpers and paid homage. They escorted them safely on their way with food and provisions.

Oh I'd give anything to hear what God told those cannibals to so frighten and subdue them.

 

[101G]

Not saying any is right or wrong, the vision might be clear, but notice some of the topics, and post it seems that the vision (clear) but is out of focus. there are many division, and the clear focus states, 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment". an out of focus vision is just as a dark one. zero results.