The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity

[oldhermit]

GINOLJC, to oldhermit, good question. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus in flesh and bone. let me make my position clear, the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus is the "SAME" PERSON, notice I said "Person, and not Persons. who is diversified in Spirit. remember, I said diversified person, not separate persons. and two I fully believe that the Lord Jesus is GOD ALMIGHTY diversified, or manifested in flesh and bone himself. now for you to understand me in knowledge, diversified means the EQUAL "share" of himself, or the equal share in flesh and blood.
I'll be looking to hear from you. thanks in advance.

I addressed some of these points on the other thread dealing with the nature of God if you care to read them and give me your feedback on that thread.

 

[oldhermit]

I reject the idea and first thing you do is question my faith. We can discuss all day long but if you have doubts about my faith in the Lord, what's the point? To you I'm a nonbeliever.

As I said earlier, salvation isn't tied into believing in the trinity. It's a man made doctrine. It's a rabbit hole I don't choose to go down. I have enough on my plate as it is without heaping on piles of conjecture.

I did not ask you if you believed in the trinity. I simply asked if you believed that Jesus is God.

 

[Job]

I simply asked if you believed that Jesus is God.

And the answer to that question would have told you what?

 

[oldhermit]

And the answer to that question would have told you what?

If you do not want to discuss it that is fine.

 

[Job]

If you do not want to discuss it that is fine.

You have a nice day.

 

[101G]

I addressed some of these points on the other thread dealing with the nature of God if you care to read them and give me your feedback on that thread.

ok, give me the links or the post #, thanks

 

[oldhermit]

ok, give me the links or the post #, thanks

The Problem With The Trinity
Begin with post # 30. It would probably be better for you to read through all of them before responding so that you can see where I am going. I have a great deal more to offer on this but no one seems interested enough to respond to the last post and unless someone does, I think I will just leave it there.

 

[christiang]

I've had a read though but its just a lot of out of context quotes, strung between unwarranted assumptions and unsubstantiated assertions. It's not worth spending time on but for those who might read this I will make a comment on the falseness of your opening assertions.

1John 5:7-8. It's true that the phrase "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." does not appear in later manuscripts, as many translations note. But that does not mean that it is a forgery.

A forgery implies a deliberate attempt to deceive. which you have not, and cannot, prove. Some commentators suggest it was a gloss (a comment) that became added to some texts when copied. This would be a corruption; to call it a forgery is dishonest

Matthew 28:19 You provide no evidence that this was not in the original texts, nor do I know of any. I know of no translation that comment on this. Even the JW translation (and they are not Trinitarian) has this verse.

You claim that it is a forgery seem to be based on your intellectual inadequacy to reconcile it with text that refer to baptism "in the name of Jesus". Actually it is quite simple.

At the time there were two baptism's with water in operation - John's baptism and Christian baptism (see Acts 19:3-5). Baptism in the name of Jesus (and variations) was the name or designation given to Christian baptism to distinguish it from John's baptism.

When Jesus said (Mt 28:19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" he was giving them the form of words to be used in the baptism.

The Didache or The Teachings of The Twelve Apostles is an important work, believed to date to the 1st century. Indeed some date it as early as 60-70 AD. The author is unknown and one source suggests it is a composition of two or three tracts. It seems to be a manual of instruction for pagans who wish to become Christians and contains catechetical and liturgical instructions. It says this on how to baptise:

“And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. But if you have no living [running] water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.” (chap 7).

Thus a document from apostolic times and practices is consistent with Mt 28:19. To claim Mt 28:19 is a forgery is baseless.

Although not a text I rely on, there does exist one gospel that does not have the trinitarian forgery, and it is Shem Tov's Matthew Hebrew. And even Eusebius quotes that verse without the trinitarian forgery in his writings, among other early writings from other authors. This isn't something I just came up with out of thin air, there is historical evidence to indicate that this verse was forged, which is why it contradicts other passages in the scriptures. In spite of the compelling evidence to prove this is a lie, the only reason to blind one's self and believe such a lie that doesn't even make sense, "God is three in one" (as if he were a pie) is because of tradition passed on to you, and out of fear to be cast out, because you will indeed be rejected by many for not believing in this lie.

 

[christiang]

Let me begin by simply asking a question. Do you believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God?

Is Satan not called god?

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4 [BSB])

Or even Moses?

And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [ESV])

So if Jesus Christ is lesser than God,

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [ESV])

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17 [NIV])

Yet he is called God also,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 [ESV])

Did it not occur to you he is simply called God because of the authority given to him by God,

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 [NIV])

To be the very exact representation of God,

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Hebrews 1:3 [NIV])

Just as Adam was made in the image of God,

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27 [NIV])

And subsequently gave him authority over all earth,

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Genesis 1:28 [NIV])

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:28 [NASB])

Yet Jesus Christ was given the highest measure of authority, over heaven and earth, hence why his name is the greatest,

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, (Philippians 2:9 [ESV])

Because EVEN THOUGH THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER, just like any being that is called "god", Jesus Christ is called "God" because of the authority given to him by God TO BE AS GOD, his very own representation in creation.

 

[Mungo]

Although not a text I rely on, there does exist one gospel that does not have the trinitarian forgery, and it is Shem Tov's Matthew Hebrew. And even Eusebius quotes that verse without the trinitarian forgery in his writings, among other early writings from other authors. This isn't something I just came up with out of thin air, there is historical evidence to indicate that this verse was forged, which is why it contradicts other passages in the scriptures. In spite of the compelling evidence to prove this is a lie, the only reason to blind one's self and believe such a lie that doesn't even make sense, "God is three in one" (as if he were a pie) is because of tradition passed on to you, and out of fear to be cast out, because you will indeed be rejected by many for not believing in this lie.

Typical of your "answers". You do not address the points made, and then make assertions without any evidence presented to substantiate them.

You claim there is evidence that "this" verse is a lie without:
a) saying which verse you are referring to
b) providing this "evidence".

I thought it would be a waster of time trying to discuss anything with you. As I said, I commented for those who might read it.

 

[KBCid]

Usually, when someone rejects the idea of the trinity it is either because they do not believe in the deity of Christ and the person of the Holy Spirit or because they cannot conceive of the "One God" of Deut 4 as representing anything but a single numeric essence of being.

Do you believe that The Father and the Son are a single "numeric essence"?
Do you believe that The Father and Son are a single God?
Do you believe that the holy spirit is separate person from God?

If you say yes to those questions then explain why mankind who was made in the image of God was made in pairs? Explain if you can why Eve was made in the manner that she was and not as Adam was.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all who believe in a 3 person Godhead, just respond to these scriptures, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen". here is what one need to address.
A. if the Lord Jesus is the ONLY one who have "immortality", where do that leave your other two persons?. especially if one say that they, all three, are separated, and "co-equal".
B. if they are co-equal, why not all have "immortality?". ONLY is very clear as to what it means. only here is used as an adjective: 1. alone in a class or category. 2. being the single one or the relatively few of the kind. 3. having no sibling or no sibling of the same sex. 4. single in superiority or distinction; unique. 5. unique by virtue of being superior to anything else; peerless. 6. one and only (adjective) incomparable; unique.
G3441 μόνος monos (mo'-nos) adj.
1. remaining, i.e. sole or single.

 

[oldhermit]

Is Satan not called god?

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4 [BSB])

Or even Moses?

And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [ESV])

So if Jesus Christ is lesser than God,

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [ESV])

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17 [NIV])

Yet he is called God also,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 [ESV])

Did it not occur to you he is simply called God because of the authority given to him by God,

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 [NIV])

To be the very exact representation of God,

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Hebrews 1:3 [NIV])

Just as Adam was made in the image of God,

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27 [NIV])

And subsequently gave him authority over all earth,

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Genesis 1:28 [NIV])

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:28 [NASB])

Yet Jesus Christ was given the highest measure of authority, over heaven and earth, hence why his name is the greatest,

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, (Philippians 2:9 [ESV])

Because EVEN THOUGH THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER, just like any being that is called "god", Jesus Christ is called "God" because of the authority given to him by God TO BE AS GOD, his very own representation in creation.

I will address your first question here. The rest of the questions will be addressed at different times on The Problem With The Trinity if you would like to follow along on that thread.
The answer to your question is NO. Satan not called god in 2Cor. 4:4 or anywhere else in scripture. 2Cor. 4:4 is not referring to Satan. I really do not understand why people believe this has to be Satan. Paul is referring to God himself. Paul makes the statement, “In their case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” This is actually from Isaiah 6:9, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” The 'God of this world' in 2Corinthians 4:4 is the Almighty who has blinded the eyes of the unrepentant so that they will refuse to believe? This exact same idea is repeated by Paul in 2Thesselonians 2:11-12, “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

 

[101G]

The answer to your question is NO. Satan not called god in 2Cor. 4:4 or anywhere else in scripture. 2Cor. 4:4 is not referring to Satan. I really do not understand why people believe this has to be Satan.

I must disagree, why would God blind unbelievers?, please answer.

 

[oldhermit]

I must disagree, why would God blind unbelievers?, please answer.

He tells you why in the text. Isaiah 6:9-10, "He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand. Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.” It is the Almighty who sends the strong delusion to those who refuse who "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

 

[101G]

He tells you why in the text. Isaiah 6:9-10, "He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand. Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.” It is the Almighty who sends the strong delusion to those who refuse who "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

another lie, 2 Corinthians 4:5 "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". if God commanded the Light, the truth, and then turn around and blind people to it that's a lie. that's why he have his apostles preaching it. oldhermit you need to go back and re-new your mind. the scriptures are true and clear. so that is reproofed.

 

[oldhermit]

another lie, 2 Corinthians 4:5 "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". if God commanded the Light, the truth, and then turn around and blind people to it that's a lie. that's why he have his apostles preaching it. oldhermit you need to go back and re-new your mind. the scriptures are true and clear. so that is reproofed.

I really do not think there is any reason in you and I continuing this discussion. You do not seem to believe the evidence of scripture and all you can do is accuse me of lying. I am not the one that said it. Scripture is the one who said it. I think we are done here.

 

[christiang]

Typical of your "answers". You do not address the points made, and then make assertions without any evidence presented to substantiate them.

You claim there is evidence that "this" verse is a lie without:
a) saying which verse you are referring to
b) providing this "evidence".

I thought it would be a waster of time trying to discuss anything with you. As I said, I commented for those who might read it.

Did you want me to gift wrap the quotes of early men like Eusebius, or the Hebrew gospel of Matthew, and have it shipped to you in a box, that quote Matthew 28:19 IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM WITHOUT THE TRINITIARIAN FORMULA? I gave you the references, now it is up to you to look them up yourself and SEE FOR YOURSELF THAT THERE ARE AMPLE OUTSIDE EVIDENCES demonstrating Matthew 28:19 in its original form, "IN MY NAME", hence why all the other scriptures that were performed in accordance to the book of Acts were done only in "the name of Jesus" ONLY, BECAUSE THAT IS THE TRUTH. So here you have OUTSIDE EVIDENCES AND INTERNAL EVIDENCES. NOT TO MENTION THE OTHER VERSE IN 1 JOHN THAT IS CLEARLY A FORGERY HAVING THE SAME TRINITIARIAN FOMULA. RING RING, HELLO? DO YOU NOT SEE THE OBVIOUS SMOKE ALARM? THE OBVIOUS RED FLAGS? WAKE UP! Between you and I, the one here who stands to gain is you, not I, because I already know the truth. If you don't want to look it up, because you are stubborn and stiff-necked, then that is up to YOU. The one here wasting his time is me, but because I desire to spread the truth to people that have been deceived, here I am taking the time out of my busy day to try to explain it to you, and have authored my study for your benefit, and the benefit of others. If you don't want to learn, THEN DON'T!

But just know that whoever believes in the teaching of the trinity CANNOT BE SAVED. Because it will lead you to break one of the commandments of God, "do not blaspheme the name of God". The doctrine of the trinity BLASPHEMES the name of God, WHICH IS THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST,

And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. (John 17:11 [ESV])

Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called? (James 2:7 [ESV])

"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (Exodus 20:7 [NIV])

"Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people. (Exodus 22:28 [NIV])

The doctrine of the trinity is one of the blasphemies uttered by the first beast of Revelation, THAT BLASPHEME THE NAME OF GOD,

It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. (Revelation 13:6 [ESV])

WHICH WAS THE ROMAN BEAST, THAT BECAME THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND YOUR PROTESTANT CHURCHES HAVE BORROWED THIS DESTRUCTIVE TEACHING.

If you don't believe me, LOOK UP THE NICENE COUNCIL HISTORY AND SEE FOR YOURSELF THE ORIGINATION OF TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE. THIS IS NOT ORIGINAL DOCTRINE OF THE ASSEMBLIES NOR JUDAIC DOCTRINE!

 

[Mungo]

Did you want me to gift wrap the quotes of early men like Eusebius, or the Hebrew gospel of Matthew, and have it shipped to you in a box, that quote Matthew 28:19 IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM WITHOUT THE TRINITIARIAN FORMULA? I gave you the references, now it is up to you to look them up yourself and SEE FOR YOURSELF THAT THERE ARE AMPLE OUTSIDE EVIDENCES demonstrating Matthew 28:19 in its original form, "IN MY NAME", hence why all the other scriptures that were performed in accordance to the book of Acts were done only in "the name of Jesus" ONLY, BECAUSE THAT IS THE TRUTH. So here you have OUTSIDE EVIDENCES AND INTERNAL EVIDENCES. RING RING, HELLO? DO YOU NOT SEE THE OBVIOUS SMOKE ALARM? THE OBVIOUS RED FLAGS? WAKE UP! Between you and I, the one here who stands to gain is you, not I, because I already know the truth. If you don't want to look it up, because you are stubborn and stiff-necked, then that is up to YOU. The one here wasting his time is me, but because I desire to spread the truth to people that have been deceived, here I am taking the time out of my busy day to try to explain it to you, and have authored my study for your benefit, and the benefit of others. If you don't want to learn, THEN DON'T!

But just know that whoever believes in the teaching of the trinity CANNOT BE SAVED. Because it will lead you to break one of the commandments of God, "do not blaspheme the name of God". The doctrine of the trinity BLASPHEMES the name of God, WHICH IS THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST,

And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. (John 17:11 [ESV])

I see from the capital letters and the abuse that you are rattled.

Bible Gateway gives 56 English versions of Mt 28:19 and ALL of them give the Trinitarian formula.

Shem Tov's Matthew
Shem-Tov's text is basically BH (Vav Consecutive predominates) with a mixture of MH and later rabbinic vocabulary and idiom. In addition the text reflects considerable revision to make it conform more closely to the standard Greek and Latin Gospel texts. The underlying text, however, reflects its original Hebrew composition, and it is the most unusual text of Matthew extant in that it contains a plethora of readings not found in any other codices of Matthew. It appears to have been preserved by the Jews, independent from the Christian community.
Is that really a reliable source?

It sometimes agrees in odd ways with Codex Sinaiticus. It contains some striking readings in common with the Gospel of John, but in disagreement with the other Gospels. ...... ST also contains 22 agreements with the Gospel of Thomas.
You are relying on this for your claims? Seriously?

Where are these quotes from Eusebius? Please give proper references.

If there are "AMPLE OUTSIDE EVIDENCES demonstrating Matthew 28:19 in its original form" where are they?
Please give references

What about the evidence from the Didache that I gave?

Folks reading this please note that christiang claims that a single highly dubious version of Matthew's gospel - supposedly preserved by Jews not Christians, and containing much material not found in other versions, and containing material in agreement with the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas - is in fact the only true version and that all other versions are forgeries.

 

[Mungo]

christiang,

While we are waiting for your references here are couple more quotes to ponder on.

Ignatius of Antioch died probably around 107 -110 AD. The Church historian Eusebius said he was a bishop for 40 years, so although his death and major writings are in the second century, most of his episcopate is in the first. He was a contemporary of some of the apostles. Indeed Theodoret of Cyrus (5th century) says he was appointed to the see of Antioch by St. Peter himself and was the third bishop there, Peter himself being the first (before he moved to Rome).

He was martyred during the reign of the Emperor Trajan, (98-117 AD).
During his long journey, by sea and land to his martyrdom in Rome, he met up with delegations from various churches and wrote letters to six churches and his friend Polycarp. These letters are a valuable source for understanding the Church in the sub-apostolic times.

Here is an extract from his Letter to the Philadelphians (chapter 9)
But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz., the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, His passion, and the resurrection itself. For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Irenaeus of Lyons was the second important early father of the 2nd century. He was born about the year 130 and brought up in Smyrna and was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Bishop there. Polycarp himself was a disciple of the apostle John. By the year 177 he was a priest in Lyon in France (Gaul) and was made bishop. He wrote many works defending the faith, particularly against the Gnostics. Against Heresies is in five volumes. Tradition has it that he was martyred around the year 200.

In Against Heresies, Book 3 he writes:
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." For [God] promised, that in the last times He would pour Him [the Spirit] upon [His] servants and handmaids, that they might prophesy; wherefore He did also descend upon the Son of God, made the Son of man, becoming accustomed in fellowship with Him to dwell in the human race, to rest with human beings, and to dwell in the workmanship of God, working the will of the Father in them, and renewing them from their old habits into the newness of Christ.

Do you want more?