The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity

[Job]

You are very good at dodging questions. Please answer my question in post #88

You're not going to change my mind regarding the trinity so please stop trying.

 

[Marymog]

You're not going to change my mind regarding the trinity so please stop trying.

Translation: I don't have a legitimate, logical or fact based answer so please stop trying to get me to answer

JOB, Your theory about The Trinity doesn't change scripture OR 2,000 years of Christian teaching. Those who have held your belief in the past have been called heretic's. Let me be very clear I AM NOT CALLING YOU A HERITC. I am sincere when I tell you that if you could give an articulate, fact based, scriptureal response to YOUR trinity theory, I would change my mind.

Mary

 

[Job]

Translation: I don't have a legitimate, logical or fact based answer so please stop trying to get me to answer

JOB, Your theory about The Trinity doesn't change scripture OR 2,000 years of Christian teaching. Those who have held your belief in the past have been called heretic's. Let me be very clear I AM NOT CALLING YOU A HERITC. I am sincere when I tell you that if you could give an articulate, fact based, scriptureal response to YOUR trinity theory, I would change my mind.

Mary

What's my theory?

 

[Job]

I am sincere when I tell you that if you could give an articulate, fact based, scriptureal response to YOUR trinity theory, I would change my mind.

Please don't be offended but I'm really not interested in changing your mind. You have your beliefs I have mine.

Just so you know...

 

[KBCid]

My links outside the bible reference to actual evidences that are known and wrote about by many authors but, the strength of my assertion about a trinity wasn't and is not born on the backs of authors outside the bible. These reference authors see what is plainly asserted by God the Father and Christ when they created mankind;
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our image, after our likeness....
And that image and likeness he pronounce to be......;
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Including children.

There was no children created by God when he crated man in his image. He created them male and female not male and female with a kid.

Scripture doe not support a binity.

Really? is your English comprehension impaired? read this carefully;
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our image, after our likeness....
And that image and likeness he pronounce to be......;
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

God made THEM male and female. now let us try counting male = 1, female = 1 and in normal math when you add the numbers together we get 2 not 3 or 4 or 50 or 1,000,000.

Children count as one flesh with their parents.

Let's see ummm, no scriptural backing for your assertion and there is scriptural backing for my assertion;
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Does anyone see any mention of children in the above scriptures? I would further point out that a male and female, the two of which were created in the image of God and who is considered one flesh according to the word of God can have a multitude of children not just one. I know many families with 10 or more kids... how does that = a trinity in bizarro world?

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son."

Ahhh quoting from some men that stated their beliefs over 1600 years ago. nice. So, quotations from outside sources are ok when you do it. Here is understanding.... the Bible testifies for itself and it states that;
2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.
There are no creeds needed as an authority to understand the bible or else you would essentially annul the authority of the Bible itself.

Reality check: JW's and Oneness Pentecostals do not believe the Trinity.

Further reality check.... I'm not JW or a Oneness Pentecostal but I also don't believe in a trinity because there is none and you cannot scripturally point to its existence however, I can point to scripture that backs my assertion that the proper image of God is;

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

two.... God's image that he asserts reflects him is defined as a male and female. Male = 1 and Female = 1 and the addition of them together equals 2 and God asserts by his own word that those 2 are to be considered 1 flesh.

The Reformers insisted there is only one written source of special revelation, the Bible. This is the sola of sola Scriptura. The chief reason for the word alone is the conviction that the Bible is inspired by God, while church creeds and pronouncements are the works of men......they are not the inspired Word of God. R. C. Sproul, Grace Unknown: The Heart of Reformed Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1997), p. 43.

 

[epostle1]

There was no children created by God when he crated man in his image. He created them male and female not male and female with a kid.
Really? is your English comprehension impaired? read this carefully;
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our image, after our likeness....
And that image and likeness he pronounce to be......;
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
God made THEM male and female. now let us try counting male = 1, female = 1 and in normal math when you add the numbers together we get 2 not 3 or 4 or 50 or 1,000,000.
Let's see ummm, no scriptural backing for your assertion and there is scriptural backing for my assertion;
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Does anyone see any mention of children in the above scriptures? I would further point out that a male and female, the two of which were created in the image of God and who is considered one flesh according to the word of God can have a multitude of children not just one. I know many families with 10 or more kids... how does that = a trinity in bizarro world?

I said the human family is an analogy to the eternal economy of the Trinity. An analogy does not not require proof text. Parents make babies which is analogous to the Trinity, not an exact duplicate. Adam and Eve had no children until after the Fall in Genesis 3 so your proof texts are meaningless.

Ahhh quoting from some men that stated their beliefs over 1600 years ago. nice. So, quotations from outside sources are ok when you do it. Here is understanding.... the Bible testifies for itself and it states that;

"Some men" stated their false beliefs 500 years ago, and the Niacene Creed came out of the Council of Nicae. Each line is apostolic in origin (325 AD), not just "some men". It was proclaimed to refute the heretic Arius who was using a"Bible alone" approach teaching that Jesus was created. Will that be your next assertion?

2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.
There are no creeds needed as an authority to understand the bible or else you would essentially annul the authority of the Bible itself.

Material and Formal Sufficiency of Scripture
The difference here is between a blueprint to make a building, and the bricks of which the building is made. A merely materially sufficient Scripture is like a pile of bricks that can build anything from a cathedral to a tool shed, but the bricks themselves possess no inherent intelligibility (formal sufficiency) in one direction for another. The intelligibility derives from outside the bricks. Conversely, a blueprint is inherently intelligible, and thus has not material but formal sufficiency to create a specific building, whether cathedral or tool shed.

In terms of development, the claim that Scripture is materially sufficient presumes that the intelligibility of revelation derives from elsewhere than Scripture itself. A definitive magisterium (or external tradition) is necessary to decide what to do with the bricks. Without the magisterium it is impossible to know whether the bricks were intended to be a cathedral or a tool shed.The distinction here makes all the difference in the world. From a Protestant point of view, anything less than formal sufficiency is unacceptable and will render Sola Scriptura impossible. On the flip side, the Catholic has no problem affirming the material sufficiency of Scripture (i.e. all necessary information is at least implicit in Scripture), since it in no way rules out the need for a Magisterium - and indeed demands one!

It is not enough for the Protestant to point to a text that says how good or useful or inspired Scripture is, since the material sufficiency gladly embraces all this. The Protestant must show that Scripture formally and clearly lays out Christian teaching in such a way that no Magisterium or Tradition is needed, and in fact must show that the Magisterium and Tradition don't exist in the first place (or wont exist at some future date).
What is also important to point out is that the great majority of Scripture is not written down in any "blueprint" sense such that the Inspired human writer was laying down a systematic treatment of doctrines. In other words, the Bible is not written like a text book or even a 'do it yourself' self-help book. This is a major difficulty for the Protestant seeking to prove formal sufficiency.

Further reality check.... I'm not JW or a Oneness Pentecostal but I also don't believe in a trinity because there is none and you cannot scripturally point to its existence however, I can point to scripture that backs my assertion that the proper image of God is;

The Trinity can be defended by Scripture, you are just too rebellious to see what is obvious to 3 main branches of Christianity. (Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox) You have been infected by false cults because nobody can come up with that lunacy on their own.

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

two.... God's image that he asserts reflects him is defined as a male and female. Male = 1 and Female = 1 and the addition of them together equals 2 and God asserts by his own word that those 2 are to be considered 1 flesh.

Children are one flesh with their parents. This is obvious just by looking at them. Your strict literalism on Genesis will not change that. It's always a mistake to interpret Genesis strictly literal. Even the Jews don't do that, and they should know something about it since they WROTE it.
Male = 1 and Female = 1 = offspring.

The Reformers insisted there is only one written source of special revelation, the Bible. This is the sola of sola Scriptura. The chief reason for the word alone is the conviction that the Bible is inspired by God, while church creeds and pronouncements are the works of men......they are not the inspired Word of God. R. C. Sproul, Grace Unknown: The Heart of Reformed Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1997), p. 43.

Sola scriptura was a reformist invention. Creeds and certain pronouncements are infallible (such as the canon of Scripture and the divinity of Christ) while Scripture is inspired. Sproul, in typical Protestant fashion, creates a false dichotomy between inspiration and infallibility. What is infallible does not trump what is inspired, it's several steps down from inspiration, but that doesn't prove it's "works of men".

 

[Marymog]

Please don't be offended but I'm really not interested in changing your mind. You have your beliefs I have mine.

Just so you know...

Dear Job,

There is nothing you can say that will offend me.

If your not interested in changing my mind then why are we discussing this? If your not interested in changing ANYONES mind why do you engage in debate on this website?

I would love to change your mind about The Trinity. That way you will KNOW and live The Truth.

Love Mary

 

[Job]

If your not interested in changing ANYONES mind why do you engage in debate on this website?

One man sows, another man waters.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This study goes over the scriptures and doctrinal reasons that contradict the doctrine of the trinity, along with the manuscript evidence proving the forgery of the two trinitarian verses. The study can be found in English here The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity | Wisdom of God or in Spanish here El Engaño de la Enseñanza de la Trinidad | Sabiduria de Dios . Let us begin a discussion on this matter here.

The Trinity, as Shown in Scripture
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Matt. 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

1 Cor. 12:4-6
"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14,
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE.

The Father is God
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 63:16
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:41
You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:13
So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus.


The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

John 1:3
ALL things were made by HIM (Jesus); and without him was not ANY thing made that was made.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."

John 15:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to GOD.

2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Philippians 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Colossians 2:9
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ


The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
*This word in Greek means, “another of the SAME kind.”

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU?

John 14:23
Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

 

[Marymog]

One man sows, another man waters.

The man who sows is hoping for change.
The man who waters is hoping for change.

So I ask you again: If your not interested in changing ANYONES mind why do you engage in debate on this website?

Curious Mary

 

[Job]

So I ask you again: If your not interested in changing ANYONES mind why do you engage in debate on this website?

Because I want to.

 

[aspen]

I might be able to influence others, at times, but I do not have the power to change anyone. I am here to clarify and refine my own beliefs

 

[Marymog]

Because I want to.

Dear Job,

"I want to" is an incomplete sentence.

What do you WANT TO do?

Curious Mary

 

[Job]

"I want to" is an incomplete sentence.

That's because you altered what was actually said.

 

[Marymog]

That's because you altered what was actually said.

"Because I want to" is an incomplete sentence. No alteration here.

I altered what you said because I wanted to.

 

[Job]

"Because I want to" is an incomplete sentence. No alteration here.

I altered what you said because I wanted to.

You asked me why I post here and I said, "Because I want to."

Who cares if it's an incomplete sentence. It gets the point across.

 

[Marymog]

You asked me why I post here and I said, "Because I want to."

Who cares if it's an incomplete sentence. It gets the point across.

Dear Job,

You just fulfilled my previously stated idiom (painting ones self into a corner)
Thank You.

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

 

[Job]

Dear Job,

You just fulfilled my previously stated idiom (painting ones self into a corner)
Thank You.

Mary

Sentence structure has never been my forte.

 

[Peanut]

The Trinity is a satanic rabbit hole.

I see the Trinity teaching as a hold over of the ancient Roman polytheistic pantheon. There is no scripture that actually confirms such a thing. In fact, the old testament refutes it from the beginning. "Hear oh Israel, our God, our God, is one." Not three.