The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.

[Episkopos]

Many examples have been given re the Triune Godhead, but you persist, ignoring the gospel of Christ Jesus.
J.

There are no such examples. But there are many examples of Jesus Christ being One with His Father. Both Father and Son make up the Godhead Elohim. Do you deny this? Do you deny that there is only ONE Holy Spirit?

God the Father has a Spirit and there is the Spirit of Christ to consider. Are all these separate beings?

Would the Jews...and the early Jewish apostles, not have stated that they believed that God's Spirit was a separate person from Him?

No Jew ever believed that the many references to God's Spirit in the OT was indicating a separate person from Him. Jesus cast out demons with "the finger of God". Should we see God's finger as a separate person to be worshiped separately from Him? Do you see how our pagan way of thinking would have us misunderstand the nature of God?

The Comforter is God's Spirit. We receive comfort in the inner man. But the outer man is to fear and tremble before Him.

Since VERY few understand these dualities...VERY few will understand what the Bible is speaking of.

“Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.” Acts 9:31

Is this our testimony? Or do we pick one and reject the other?

Most modern believers make NO distinction between what is meant to be comforted and what should be trembling with fear.

 

[Johann]

There are no such examples. But there are many examples of Jesus Christ being One with His Father. Both Father and Son make up the Godhead Elohim. Do you deny this? Do you deny that there is only ONE Holy Spirit?

God has a Spirit and there is the Spirit of Christ to consider. Are all these separate beings?

Would the Jews...and the early Jewish apostles, not have stated that they believed that God's Spirit was a separate person from Him?

No Jew ever believed that the many references to God's Spirit in the OT was indicating a separate person from Him. Jesus cast out demons with "the finger of God". Should we see God's finger as a separate person to be worshiped separately from Him? Do you see how our pagan way of thinking would have us misunderstand the nature of God?

The Comforter is God's Spirit. We receive comfort in the inner man. But the outer man is to fear and tremble before Him.

Since VERY few understand these dualities...VERY few will understand what the Bible is speaking of.

“Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.” Acts 9:31

Is this our testimony? Or do we pick one and reject the other?

Most modern believers make NO distinction between what is meant to be comforted and what should be trembling with fear.

You obviously have not listen to any of the video clips since you are going full steam...would you consider that the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is a central tenant of faith?
I categorically disagree with you and you with me.
Is Christ Jesus not the object of our worship and dia Him to the Father?
Can we go past what we disagree on and agree on the gospel of Christ?
J.

 

[Episkopos]

That is correct. Hence the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult calls Jesus "a god" in John 1:1. So yes, these unbelievers are indeed promoting a greater God and a lesser God. But what does the Bible reveal?

1. The Father is fully God.
2. The Son is fully God.
3. The Holy Spirit is fully God.
4. Within the Godhead the Father is "Head" (or authority) over the Son (1 Cor 11:3)
5. While Jesus was on earth He voluntarily submitted Himself entirely to the Father's will.
6. In turn the Father calls the Son "God" and has given Him an eternal throne (Hebrews 1)
7. The Holy Spirit is called both "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ" yet He is a distinct person called the Comforter (or Paraclete)
8. Jesus plainly told the Jews (and by extension all men) that unless they believed that He is fully God ("I AM") they would die in their sins.
9. The apostle John calls the ones who reject the doctrine of Christ "antichrists" who are not to be fellowshipped with.
10. The Holy Trinity is revealed throughout the Bible, and the Hebrew word for God -- Elohim -- is a uniplural word indicating one God eternally existent as three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" (Gen 1:26).

Obscurantism and a dishonest strawman. A human baby is still a human....same nature...but different stature.

A father and a son share the same name...same nature...different stature. Is any father and son co-equal? No...the father is always greater than the son.

So it is with God. The Father is the same as the Son...but of a greater stature.

The "our likeness" is Father and Son...sharing a common name YAHVEY...having different statures. The Father is the God of ALL flesh. The Son is the God of Israel...His portion or heritage.

The Oneness of God is that they share One Spirit. Since we are all different persons with different spirits we tend to NOT understand God's nature. Instead we try making God out in OUR image.

 

[Episkopos]

You obviously have not listen to any of the video clips since you are going full steam...would you consider that the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is a central tenant of faith?
I categorically disagree with you and you with me.
Is Christ Jesus not the object of our worship and dia Him to the Father?
Can we go past what we disagree on and agree on on the gospel of Christ?
J.

That's TENET of faith (actually religious beliefs) not tenant. A tenant is someone who occupies a building.

Creeds are a wrong approach to the mystery of God. Carnal religious men divide over them...proving just how carnal they are. They seek an outward conformity...whereas the apostles NEVER would do that.

"Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand."

Beliefs are not the same as biblical faith...I know you don't understand this. Can you raise the dead by stating your beliefs? beliefs can only please other carnal religious people...who look for an outward conformity to a religion.

Having said that...

I don't detach from brethren who I disagree with or who disagree with me. We each have a lot to learn. Some will understand more than others. Some are more advanced in understanding than others. If you agree with a Sunday school level of creedal beliefs...you are probably not very advanced. What's good for an infant should be insufficient for a grown disciple. Regardless, God is greater than our explanations of Him.
The nature of God is a great mystery. I just wish that people would stop making creeds that make it seem like there is no mystery.

Religion kills spiritual life. A little time with modern believers will prove that point over and over again.

But I accept as brothers ALL who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of God's Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

But the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are separate AND the same. Jesus Christ is a smaller version of the greater whole that is the Father. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

God's Spirit is not like the spirit of a man within him. We should not try to limit the Spirit of God according to our perceptions of our own spirit.

We're told, grieve not the Holy Spirit of God. We're told, the Father will give you "another Comforter" that he may remain with you, the Spirit of Truth. We're told, the Spirit bears witness, we're told the Spirit "makes intercession for us". These are all personable things. Not things that describe an impersonal force or emanation.

Where the Bible describes a person, choosing who will receive what spiritual gift, teaching and encouraging, making intercession for us, bearing witness to us, possibly saddened by us, I would not exchange that for depersonalizing the Holy Spirit.

I think the Bible is written exactly the way God wants it to read for the purpose of molding our minds to think exactly how He wants us to think. I believe this is how God intends for us to think of Him.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I don't detach from brethren who I disagree with. We each have a lot to learn. Some will understand more than others. God is greater than pour explanations of Him.
The nature of God is a great mystery. I just wish that people would stop making creeds that make it seem like there is no mystery.

Religion kills spiritual life. A little time with modern believers will prove that point over and over again.

But I accept as brothers ALL who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of God's Holy Spirit.

Now I concur @Episkopos, religion kills and we must not allow the unsearchable Father to 'fit' in a box by our intellectual think tanks...


Job_5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:

Psa_145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

Pro_25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph_3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Shalom
J.

 

[marks]

Jesus is YHVH...the God of Israel

I'm glad we agree in this!



Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

It seems that YHWH is the Only God.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

You are almost there, but you depersonalize the Spirit of God as though that which proceeds from God is an impersonal force. That's now how the Bible speaks.

God's Spirit is not like the spirit of a man within him. We should not try to limit the Spirit of God according to our perceptions of our own spirit.

We're told, grieve not the Holy Spirit of God. We're told, the Father will give you "another Comforter" that he may remain with you, the Spirit of Truth. We're told, the Spirit bears witness, we're told the Spirit "makes intercession for us". These are all personable things. Not things that describe an impersonal force or emanation.

Where the Bible describes a person, choosing who will receive what spiritual gift, teaching and encouraging, making intercession for us, bearing witness to us, possibly saddened by us, I would not exchange that for depersonalizing the Holy Spirit.

I think the Bible is written exactly the way God wants it to read for the purpose of molding our minds to think exactly how He wants us to think. I believe this is how God intends for us to think of Him.

Much love!

The Bible contradicts your opinions in every way. Is God's hand depersonalized because it is only a part of Him? God's Spirit is an extension of Him....the way a hand is an extension of us.

In Acts we see God "stretching forth His hand"! (Acts 4:30) Does that mean a hand will mysteriously appear? of course not...it is always His Spirit at work.

The problem with pagan thinking is to make things into persons that are not. OKAY so we don't worship trees anymore. A pagan would think it wrong to see a tree as a non-person.

Does God want us to think of His FUNCTION as a separate person from Him? Are we to worship different parts of God?

Children can make such errors and get away with it. At one point, however, we are willfully worshiping a function or gift rather than the Giver.

 

[stephen64]

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank Exodus 24:9-11

No man hath seen God at any time.
1John4:12

Hmmm

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You obviously have not listen to any of the video clips since you are going full steam...would you consider that the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is a central tenant of faith?
I categorically disagree with you and you with me.
Is Christ Jesus not the object of our worship and dia Him to the Father?
Can we go past what we disagree on and agree on the gospel of Christ?
J.

I would state that the divinity of Christ is indeed a central point of any Christian faith.

Now, if someone doesn’t understand that, I’m going to happily and respectfully talk to them about it, encouraging them to grow in knowledge & faith. Also, spend time listening to them explain their love of atheist and passion for him. I’m not going to flame them or say “you’re not saved because you lack the ability to pass a theology test!”



Also, if anyone only wants to people whom ratify X creed, there are plenty of forums that require such to be a member. Nobody has to stay here.

 

[Johann]

I'm glad we agree in this!



Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

It seems that YHWH is the Only God.

Much love!

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.


Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;...
J.

 

[marks]

But the outer man is to fear and tremble before Him.

The outer man . . .

Romans 8:6-8 KJV
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

. . . cannot be reformed,

Romans 8:13 KJV
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

. . . and we are simply to put to death it's works.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank Exodus 24:9-11

No man hath seen God at any time.
1John4:12

Hmmm

Father and Son. Moses spoke to the Lord face to face....Jesus. But anyone who looked on the face of God (the Father)...had to die.

Look at Ex. 33 v. 11...and v.20. Unless you see that YHVH is BOTH Father and Son...like a family name...and that the Father is GREATER than the Son...the MOST HIGH being the Father... the Bible becomes a hodge-podge of contradictory statements.

 

[marks]

Most modern believers make NO distinction between what is meant to be comforted and what should be trembling with fear.

There is the old man, dead in sin, condemned, unable to serve God, to please God, to know life.
There is the new man, alive in Christ, being conformed to His image, justified.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I would state that the divinity of Christ is indeed a central point of any Christian faith.

Now, if someone doesn’t understand that, I’m going to happily and respectfully talk to them about it, encouraging them to grow in knowledge & faith. Also, spend time listening to them explain their love of atheist and passion for him. I’m not going to flame them or say “you’re not saved because you lack the ability to pass a theology test!”



Also, if anyone only wants to people whom ratify X creed, there are plenty of forums that require such to be a member. Nobody has to stay here.

I am in full agreement here.
J.

 

[stephen64]

There is the old man, dead in sin, condemned, unable to serve God, to please God, to know life.
There is the new man, alive in Christ, being conformed to His image, justified.

Much love!

Believers are alive in Christ, even when they are dead in transgressions/sin

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am in full agreement here.
J.

Note: calling someone a “cultist” is flaming.

 

[Episkopos]

There is the old man, dead in sin, condemned, unable to serve God, to please God, to know life.
There is the new man, alive in Christ, being conformed to His image, justified.

Much love!

You are not making the further distinction between the inner man and outer man....in every believer. The Old Man is the carnal entity we once were. The New Man is what is created in Christ's perfect image. We are to put on the New Man...put on Christ...to walk as He walked. No sin there.

The inner man is to be edified and comforted. The outer man is to be broken, forsaken and crucified...to let the inner man have a direct connection to God. We each need to go to the cross to be crucified in the outer man to be set free in the inner man to walk in the Spirit.

 

[stephen64]

Note: calling someone a “cultist” is flaming.

May I ask, what do you believe is the common link in the following, the link that brings it all together?

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
John17:20-23

 

[Episkopos]

Believers are alive in Christ, even when they are dead in transgressions/sin

No. Being quickened into life is FROM death. We come to the light FROM darkness. There is no darkness in light.

What you may be referring to is that we walk in HIS death in order to walk in HIS life. But if we are dead to sin we are not dead IN our sins.

Being dead IN sin is not the same as being dead TO sin.