The distain for romance, family, and the demonization of sexualality and women in Christianity

[GodsGrace]

Women should have the same opportunities in church and society.

OK.

In society.
And in churches?
Should a woman be a priest?

I think this thread has been derailed....

 

[Grailhunter]

I feel like we're getting into philosophy....
but I looked up equal: See the difference between B1 and B2

Would you say that women in the church setting would be explained better by B2?


equal
adjective

us

/ˈiː.kwəl/ uk

/ˈiː.kwəl/

equal adjective (SAME)​

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B1
the same in amount, number, or size:
One quart is equal to two pints.
equal in One box may look bigger than the other, but in fact they are roughly (= almost) equal in volume.
Thesaurus: synonyms, antonyms, and examples
exactly like each other

• the sameI have the same dress as her.
• identicalThe employees all wore identical blue shirts.
• indistinguishableThe counterfeit certificate was so good it was indistinguishable from the real thing.
• equalFour groups of ten is equal to two groups of twenty.

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B1
the same in importance and deserving the same treatment:
All people are equal, deserving the same rights as each other.
equal pay/status They have a long way to go before they achieve equal pay/status for men and women.
More examples
SMART Vocabulary: related words and phrases

equal adjective (ABLE)​

[ after verb ] formal
skilled or brave enough for a difficult duty or piece of work:
prove equal to It's a challenging job but I'm sure you'll prove equal to it.
equal to the task Do you think he's equal to the task ahead of him?
SMART Vocabulary: related words and phrases



equal
noun [ C ]

us

/ˈiː.kwəl/ uk

/ˈiː.kwəl/

B2
someone or something that has the same importance as someone or something else and deserves the same treatment:
The good thing about her as a boss is that she treats us all as equals.
Throughout her marriage she never considered her husband as her intellectual equal.
have no equal As an all-around athlete he has no equal (= no-one else is as good).

In this case equal is a matter of the same opportunities in church and society.

 

[Grailhunter]

Should a woman be a priest?

YES!

 

[GodsGrace]

This is why I enjoy talking to you. You don't agree there should be women priests but you can argue for their not have equal opportunities. I LOVE that you can do that, i really do!

LOL
Well stop loving it and give me an answer!

But I think we've derailed this thread enough.....

 

[GodsGrace]

YES!

OK.
We finally disagree about something !!

 

[GodsGrace]

@Grailhunter
@nedsk

Very nice convo.

Back to painting my laundry room.

 

[nedsk]

LOL
Well stop loving it and give me an answer!

But I think we've derailed this thread enough.....

I did

 

[nedsk]

In this case equal is a matter of the same opportunities in church and society.

Thats fairness not equality. The church isn't a democracy

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter
@nedsk

Very nice convo.

Back to painting my laundry room.

And then we can get on the celibacy issue. Probably be more relevant that priests and nuns have to feed the poor.

 

[GodsGrace]

And then we can get on the celibacy issue. Probably be more relevant that priests and nuns have to feed the poor.

I don't see celibacy as an issue.
I know some priests personally....they don't have an issue with this.
They knew before becoming priests that celibacy was a requirement and they agreed to it.
And this happened, in the CC, only in about the year 1200, if I remember correctly (or close to that time).
Priests agree that it would be very difficult to be a priest AND have a family.
It has to be said that some do leave the priesthood to get married but it's not often and is not seen as a problem.
Here by me, in all the time anyone can remember, only one priest has done this.

 

[nedsk]

I don't see celibacy as an issue.
I know some priests personally....they don't have an issue with this.
They knew before becoming priests that celibacy was a requirement and they agreed to it.
And this happened, in the CC, only in about the year 1200, if I remember correctly (or close to that time).
Priests agree that it would be very difficult to be a priest AND have a family.
It has to be said that some do leave the priesthood to get married but it's not often and is not seen as a problem.
Here by me, in all the time anyone can remember, only one priest has done this.

Sadly I know at least 5 just off the top of my head they have left the priesthood for marriage. Also even more men that were brothers in religious orders.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sadly I know at least 5 just off the top of my head they have left the priesthood for marriage. Also even more men that were brothers in religious orders.

It happens nedsk. Always will.
But for the majority it's not an issue.
What I have found is that an older age some feel needy and wish they had a family...
but it doesn't seem to be a problem and anyway it's such a personal feeling I doubt they discuss everything about this.
Also, I want to mention that some priests don't even want a family so it had nothing to do with their decision.
I know a brother in a religious order but not in a personal way but he, and the others with him, seem to be content.
I also know that they don't accept someone just because they want to join...they've turned down at least two men I can think of because they don't feel the person is suited to that type of life. In one case I'd have to agree. Don't know the other man.

 

[Grailhunter]

Priests agree that it would be very difficult to be a priest AND have a family.

Pastors have families without a problem. You need to look at the history of it. And we don't have a bunch of horny people around our wife and kids. Still human.

Sex drives are odd. A persistent drive that finally motivates. Well intentioned people with perverted sex drives think I will just go some where, where they can't have sex. But it does not work out that way. My mom and friends......the good ones break down and offer people they know money for sex.

These were priests I knew, they were outgoing and friendly and people loved them.....but in the end human. The ones I knew kept it on the down low.

But it does not always work that way and the church protects them and pays damages. I see it in the news all the time.

There is nothing wrong with a priest choosing to be celibate....but it should not be a requirement for priests or nuns. It just causes to many problems and harm to others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pastors have families without a problem. You need to look at the history of it. And we don't have a bunch of horny people around our wife and kids. Still human.

It happens in all denominations.

Mike Winger is getting much grief right now because he has exposed this.

Sex drives are odd. A persistent drive that finally motivates. Well intentioned people with perverted sex drives think I will just go some where, where they can't have sex. But it does not work out that way. My mom and friends......the good ones break down and offer people they know money for sex.

These were priests I knew, they were outgoing and friendly and people loved them.....but in the end human. The ones I knew kept it on the down low.

But it does not always work that way and the church protects them and pays damages. I see it in the news all the time.

Of course this is wrong and the CC is paying its dues for this.

There is nothing wrong with a priest choosing to be celibate....but it should not be a requirement for priests or nuns. It just causes to many problems and harm to others.

I don't think the CC is even considering this.
I agree with you BTW...I'm just saying it doesn't seem to bother the priests.
Or, maybe the ones that are bothered keep it to themselves -but then why become a priest...

A pastor has a tough life.
He has to go to work if the income from the church is not sufficient.
Or, he can not work and barely get by.
How's this: A pastor I had, won't say which denomination but one of the big ones, was found to be stealing money from the church.
He was married with 2 children and tried to devote himself to the church he ran. It must be tough.
There are lessons to prepare....Sunday service....visiting persons at home or in hospitals....replying to needs.

The cover ups are horrifying to me.

 

[The Barbarian]

Now I am not saying that Marriage Ceremonies were not occurring in Christianity all along. Marriage Ceremonies was a custom of the Gentiles that Paul brought into the Church and so voluntary Wedding Ceremonies were happening all along after he converted them.

This is true. In very early Christian communities, couples would go before the assembled faithful and announce their intention to begin a home and family.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is true. In very early Christian communities, couples would go before the assembled faithful and announce their intention to begin a home and family.

The history of weddings. If you Google how long have wedding ceremonies been happening? It will say as long as recorded history. But will not tell you that it was for the Pagans. LOL Technically Wedding Ceremonies are from Pagan sources. The Gentiles brought the custom of Wedding Ceremonies into Christianity and modern Christian Wedding Ceremonies still retain Pagan customs and rituals.

The Jews in the Old Testament considered the union the consummation of the marriage.
As it is now in most states and countries if a couple does not have sex after a wedding they can have the marriage annulled. Sex still consummates the marriage.

Wedding Ceremonies were voluntary until the Protestant made church weddings a requirement to be married in the 17th century. Up to that point the Catholics would not allow weddings in their churches. But soon after the Protestants made church weddings mandatory so did the Catholics.

The Catholics forbid polygamas marriages, but not until the 12th century.

 

[lforrest]

I think it is through the responsibilities we are faithful to keep that we are taught agape love. And putting love into practice is sanctifying.

And there are degrees to agape love, which are prioritized in order in the scriptures. The self sacrificing love that would die for strangers is #1. But also serving our family members at the cost of our own desires is a form of agape.

 

[FredVB]

Wanton sexuality is not what God meant for us in this world. Marriage is the institution for a couple that would have them committed to staying together, with the sexuality to remain between them, and this institution is to be applicable to any. Sexuality is not to be held in contempt, but be recognized to be in the design for us, with expression not going contrary to God in our lives. There are such things not for being sexual that people often now get confused with being sexual, the Bible isn't showing those things are, even believers generally still assume those are.

 

[PS95]

Even though St. Jerome obviously preferred the company of women, (Because the company he kept and most of his followers were women.) He still had this to say about the status of women: “….it is contrary to the order of nature, or of law, that women should speak in the assembly of men……and man should be commanded to love his wife, whereas the wife should fear her husband.” and he also said “Nothing is so unclean as a woman in her periods; what she touches she causes to become unclean.” Written by St. Jerome

“Because Eve caused the fall of Man she and all women were cursed to painfully deliver children between urine and feces.” Written by St. Jerome

“He who ardently loves his own wife is an adulterer….against God.” Written by St. Jerome

On the topic of sexual desire...“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.” Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord." Written by St. Augustine

“….marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” Written by St. Ambrose

In the year 553 A.D. At a Council of Bishops in Macon, religious leaders debate and voted on whether or not females had souls. By a narrow margin the Bishops decide that females have souls. Like it was their choice.

Penitential regulation laid down in the 7th century by Theodore, Bishop of Canterbury, forbade menstruating women to take communion or even enter the church. At the French Synod of Meraux, menstruating women were specifically forbidden to come to church

We move forward to the year 940 A.D. A well-respected religious leader named Odo, who was the leader of the Monks of Cluny, wrote, “To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.” And considered “….the beauty of a woman the greatest of snares.”

Thomas Aquinas, 1225-1274, Italian professor of philosophy, Catholic theologian, and doctor of the Church, sainted in 1323. One of the few geniuses of Christianity. He had great potential, but his downfall was that he built his theology on the teachings of Saint Augustine and Aristotle and other Greek concepts which made his conclusions inherently flawed. Christianity could have been a better religion if he would have thought it through with his own brilliant mind. In his writings he responded to many negative statements towards women, so not all of what I have here came from him. On the topic of the production of women; “...woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the productions of perfect likeness (male babies) according to the masculine sex; while the productions of woman comes from defect in the active power.” (In other words, corrupt or damages the male seed to produce a female baby.) He goes on to explain that women are subject to men because men are more intelligent and women are necessary for the balance of good and evil, and that although they are an occasion for sin, they are necessity so male babies can be born... “Nor was it fitting for the common good (men) to be destroyed in order that individual evil (women) might be avoided.” On the topic of sex, Thomas equates innocence and purity to men, but as far as women, only if they are virgins. Mind and soul based on the status of their vaginas! But then he does recognize the necessity of sex, but then also pointing out its inherently sinful nature, nearly implying that in this world, life cannot exist without sex and sin....This is straight up Greek philosophy. Because of his focus on St. Augustine and Aristotle, his writings were elegant and intellectual horse shit. Such a shame...but he never supported the mistreatment of women.

Origen believed that marriage came into existence as a result of the Fall. He believed that human beings originate as angelic spirits that descend from a state of beatitude into human bodies. Sexuality, according to him, is an unfortunate means for providing bodies to the fallen spirits.

From this St. Augustine instituted the doctrine of Original Sin. The belief that sin is transferred by sex and babies are born with sin on their souls and can go to Hell if not Baptized.

This was one of the causes of the horror of the witch-hunts and the horrible torture and killing of women, which lasted for about 900 years. This spurred the Catholic Church to write the Hammer of Witches… Malleus Maleficarum which was a torture manual for women. The witch-hunts and inquisitions were all initiated by the Catholic Church.
Approved sexual conduct by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church's approved sexual conduct...
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Interesting stuff. They veered off the path for sure.
I don't know of any church now aside from Catholicism who forbids marriage- or who teaches sex is dirty.
What they do teach is that sex should be between one man and one woman and they should be married. That's scriptural.
Paul said it was better to remain single since time was short- and you are more able to devote yourself to God that way- which is true, but he never once commanded celibacy of anyone and he never spoke against marriage. It's very clear in the NT that some decided not to marry and some married and had children. I do not think that the unmarried saw themselves as above others- some apostles were married. That would have been showing partiality as James speaks about- and I do not think they felt that way.

The place where many churches lack now is with divorce and remarriages- yet the RCC handles that better.
I could be wrong, but either there is a lot of adultery going on in Christianity, or people are divorcing for other reasons.
We will all be accountable.
I do think women divorce for abuse- the Q is should they remarry if abusive husband is alive. It would be hard for a pastor to counsel a young woman never to remarry-- what about her passions? Paul leaves open doors about passions, but seems only if the husband is dead.
Jesus was clear- only adultery. So after a divorce or separation-- if the abusive husband has a girlfriend or remarries- is that adultery which would free the 1st wife to remarry then?
Lots of Q's.. no real answers. Where does mercy come in?!