The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

The teaching of "once saved always saved" is the supporting framework of some churches, lulling their members into a false sense of security. Millions from nearly every religion and sect of Christendom have been led to believe that they are "born again" and "saved", with the religious leaders telling them that they are at peace with God because they are "saved", despite their religious, political and nationalistic divisions. And the people love it, just as the apostle Paul said that there would be those who love having their "ears tickled".(2 Tim 4:3) They think that they are beyond the reach of God's Armageddon judgment.(Rev 16:14, 16)

Jesus established that only a "few" would qualify for life, measure up to being worthy, saying: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14)

He also established that there would be many who have a profession of Christianity, even saying "Lord ! Lord !" to Jesus as their "Savior" but would fail the test of a true Christian.(Matt 7:21-23) At Luke 13, Jesus said to "exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

However, can a person lose God's favor once they have measured up to his holy standards for righteousness ? Yes. The apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians: "That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us, that we may never drift away."(Heb 2:1)

A person in a boat on a lake or especially in the ocean may not notice that they are slowly drifting from where they were, but over time, they have moved a considerable distance without being aware of it. Hence, a person who had God's favor, can allow the encroachment of the "world" to slowly pull him away from our Creator till he has lost his spirituality and love for God.

At Ezekiel 33, Jehovah God says: "When I say to the righteous one: "You will positively keep living, "and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done - for this he will die."(Eze 33:13) Thus, a person who was righteous, but left it and began to do "injustice" has lost Jehovah's favor and now "the wrath of God remains upon him."(John 3:36)

The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy that the "inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies."(1 Tim 4:1, 2)

After the death of the apostles at the end of the 1st century C.E., apostasy was already at work, in which some began to alter "the pure religion" that Jesus established.(James 1:27, KJV) These ' fell away from the faith ', so that over the course of several centuries, what Jesus laid down as "the truth" was distorted and altered so as to be unrecognizable.(Matt 13:24-30)

Let me first say there is greater evidence that Paul was not the author of Hebrews, but that is an entirely different subject.

Let us keep in perspective what is being spoken against in this Hebrews exhortation, altering the gospel or "drifting away" from the true gospel. The entire first chapter is dedicated to establishing the authority of Jesus Christ as divine. The Hebrew and partial gentile audience was under persecution (Hebrews 10:32-33), and their gospel was under attack from both Gentiles and Jews. The author was strengthening their faith, solidifying and defending their doctrine, all the while having confidence in their salvation.

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Now to this passage.

Ezekiel 33:12

12 “And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’

The only way a man will be saved in our time and forward is through faith in Jesus Christ, thereby no man is righteous before God except through the blood of Christ. To be guilty of one aspect of the Law is to be guilty of the entire Law. Remember this passage was written to Hebrews, not Christians. There is the fact of Old Testament saints, yet that subject does not fit with our current discussion nor God's current plan of salvation. However there is a principle to be drawn, no matter how righteous you think you are, one sin and you are a failure.

And then...

Matthew 7:13

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Again in context Jesus was not speaking to Christians, rather Jews. He knew many would not accept the gospel He was bringing to them.

This verse is something that seems to argue against this doctrine.
1 Timothy 4:1-4

Chapter 4
Apostasy
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

My question to this verse though is not an easy one to be answered. Those who "fall away", did God ever intend to save? If the answer is yes, then case closed, throw OSAS out the window. Yet clearly these who fall away are a part of God's sovereign plan spoken of before it even happens. Salvation was never theirs to begin with, thereby they did not gain salvation and then lose it. At best it can be said they had a form of faith or some type of belief, but clearly it was not salvific.

Lets look at the indicators of who these people are.
It is said these men forbid marriage and abstain from foods. Gnostics? If this is the case then "falling away from the faith" is a distortion of the gospel, similar to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism. The early church dealt with these...
It is also possible that this particular group Paul is describing has not arrived yet.

Without a doubt some can distort the gospel, but nothing you posted clearly indicates you can lose your salvation. To think God would grant salvation to only take it away... well.

Let me liken it to giving a baby candy, letting her taste it, then ripping it away from her. We are all babies incapable of saving ourselves. Without God growing and protecting the faith He instills in us, we would all be doomed to fail.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Where is the tipping point? Just when is salvation lost in the believer?

I think the tipping point is when someone denies the lord.

The Israelites in the desert were destroyed and didn't enter into rest because of their unbelief. This serves as a pattern and solemn warning to us.

Yet:
If we believe not, he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

Seems like a contradiction and unfair. Why should we be allowed to enter into rest through unbelief, when the Israelites could not? I think the answer lies in the fact that the Israelites hearts were in Egypt; they didn't want to follow the lord and suffer; they wanted to go back to the 'comforts' of Egypt.

And so:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: 2 Timothy 2:12

So the key seems to be denying the lord, not unbelief or sin. However, unbelief and sin can eventually cause us to deny the lord. And there seems to be a connection between enduring the suffering of Christ and denying the lord.

So we need to be very careful how we are following the lord because the Israelites in the desert were 'following' the lord, yet were destroyed. Many Christians claim to 'follow' the lord:

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16

Not watching and keeping our garment can cause us to love the world, and subsequently deny the lord:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4

Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

The one conquering (i.e., avowing my name) will be clothed in white garments, and by no means will I be blotting his name out of the scroll of life. And I will be avowing his name before my father and before his messengers. Revelation 3:5

For if we sin wilfully (deny the lord?) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

And finally (sorry for the long post):

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions (suffered); Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions (suffered); and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used (suffered). For ye had compassion of me in my bonds (suffering), and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods (suffering), knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence (by denying the lord)), which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back (and denies the lord), my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (by denying the lord); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:32-39

 

[justaname]

I think the tipping point is when someone denies the lord.

The Israelites in the desert were destroyed and didn't enter into rest because of their unbelief. This serves as a pattern and solemn warning to us.

Yet:
If we believe not, he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

Seems like a contradiction and unfair. Why should we be allowed to enter into rest through unbelief, when the Israelites could not? I think the answer lies in the fact that the Israelites hearts were in Egypt; they didn't want to follow the lord and suffer; they wanted to go back to the 'comforts' of Egypt.

And so:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: 2 Timothy 2:12

So the key seems to be denying the lord, not unbelief or sin. However, unbelief and sin can eventually cause us to deny the lord. And there seems to be a connection between enduring the suffering of Christ and denying the lord.

So we need to be very careful how we are following the lord because the Israelites in the desert were 'following' the lord, yet were destroyed. Many Christians claim to 'follow' the lord:

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16

Not watching and keeping our garment can cause us to love the world, and subsequently deny the lord:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4

Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

The one conquering (i.e., avowing my name) will be clothed in white garments, and by no means will I be blotting his name out of the scroll of life. And I will be avowing his name before my father and before his messengers. Revelation 3:5

For if we sin wilfully (deny the lord?) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

And finally (sorry for the long post):

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions (suffered); Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions (suffered); and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used (suffered). For ye had compassion of me in my bonds (suffering), and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods (suffering), knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence (by denying the lord)), which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back (and denies the lord), my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (by denying the lord); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:32-39

So did Peter, who denied the Lord three times lose his salvation?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So did Peter, who denied the Lord three times lose his salvation?

No, but if he hadn't repented he would have.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

So did Peter, who denied the Lord three times lose his salvation?

Good point

No, but if he hadn't repented he would have.

Are you trying to say you can deny the Lord one minute , repent the next , and be OK ?

The more you look at OSAS , the more it looks like there can be no other way.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are you trying to say you can deny the Lord one minute , repent the next , and be OK ?
The more you look at OSAS , the more it looks like there can be no other way.

Well it's pretty obvious that Peter denied the lord, repented, and was saved. It's also pretty obvious that if we deny the lord, he will deny us (otherwise Paul was bearing false witness).

So we can conclude from this that the lord will only deny someone if that someone persists in denial of the lord.

OSAS only works if a believer doesn't irredeemably deny the lord. Whatever irredeemably means is determined by the lord.

 

[williemac]

Well it's pretty obvious that Peter denied the lord, repented, and was saved. It's also pretty obvious that if we deny the lord, he will deny us (otherwise Paul was bearing false witness).

So we can conclude from this that the lord will only deny someone if that someone persists in denial of the lord.

OSAS only works if a believer doesn't irredeemably deny the lord. Whatever irredeemably means is determined by the lord.

We need to consider what denial actually means. At the time, Peter did not fully grasp what was occurring. His master was being betrayed and he had personal fear,
His denial was whether or not he was with Jesus, but the fact was that he had followed Him and was nearby. His heart was not in the wrong place. In fact, it hurt him a great deal when he realized what he had done. After the resurrection, things were made clear to all the disciples as to the necessity of the events and death of Jesus. This was not yet fully revealed to them on the night of His betrayal. They had not been yet filled with the Holy Spirit as well. At one point after Pentecost they had even prayed for boldness and were filled. This boldness was absent that previous night, as they had no idea what was going on.

The teaching of "once saved always saved" is the supporting framework of some churches, lulling their members into a false sense of security. Millions from nearly every religion and sect of Christendom have been led to believe that they are "born again" and "saved", with the religious leaders telling them that they are at peace with God because they are "saved", despite their religious, political and nationalistic divisions. And the people love it, just as the apostle Paul said that there would be those who love having their "ears tickled".(2 Tim 4:3) They think that they are beyond the reach of God's Armageddon judgment.(Rev 16:14, 16)

Jesus established that only a "few" would qualify for life, measure up to being worthy, saying: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14)

He also established that there would be many who have a profession of Christianity, even saying "Lord ! Lord !" to Jesus as their "Savior" but would fail the test of a true Christian.(Matt 7:21-23) At Luke 13, Jesus said to "exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

However, can a person lose God's favor once they have measured up to his holy standards for righteousness ? Yes. The apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians: "That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us, that we may never drift away."(Heb 2:1)

A person in a boat on a lake or especially in the ocean may not notice that they are slowly drifting from where they were, but over time, they have moved a considerable distance without being aware of it. Hence, a person who had God's favor, can allow the encroachment of the "world" to slowly pull him away from our Creator till he has lost his spirituality and love for God.

At Ezekiel 33, Jehovah God says: "When I say to the righteous one: "You will positively keep living, "and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done - for this he will die."(Eze 33:13) Thus, a person who was righteous, but left it and began to do "injustice" has lost Jehovah's favor and now "the wrath of God remains upon him."(John 3:36)

The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy that the "inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies."(1 Tim 4:1, 2)

After the death of the apostles at the end of the 1st century C.E., apostasy was already at work, in which some began to alter "the pure religion" that Jesus established.(James 1:27, KJV) These ' fell away from the faith ', so that over the course of several centuries, what Jesus laid down as "the truth" was distorted and altered so as to be unrecognizable.(Matt 13:24-30)

I think many have already concurred that it is possible to fall away. However, The point I made earlier was that God is not going to judge a believer God will not reject one of His. He will assure. We will not lose favor if we remain in the faith. From His perspective and by His promise, 'always saved'.
But I also have commented on the narrow gate. Jesus said that few were entering. This is because at that time, there was no covenant of grace and no gospel, no death, no resurrection of the Lord. Of course it would have been hard to enter under the law. Jesus was not speaking of the future, He was speaking of a dilemma that He had fully intended to solve on our behalf. He was successful. Faith is not a hard road. It is so easy that John eventually saw a multitude that no one could number, standing before the throne. If you insist on quoting from the past, to those situations prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus, then just what do you believe was accomplished at Cavalry? Nothing? His sacrifice is superior to the blood of bulls and goats, which also had kept them in good standing.

Drifting away is not equivalent to losing favor. It is equivalent to rejecting favor. If you deliberately throw something way, you did not lose it. But how do we do that? By falling from faith.

But a reminder, falling from faith can be done in more than one fashion. Yes, it can be done by going back to a life without God. But it also can be done by attempting to go over Jesus' head and be justified by one's own means. It is by One Man that we stand justified before God. How many have the humility to accept this? How many would prefer to present their own righteousness to God?
I can assure you that this latter scenario is far greater and far more common that the one where some walk away altogether. Man's pride has always been the real issue. It is as real in religion as it is outside of it.

 

[HammerStone]

I find the argument for the perseverance of the saints quite compelling.

However, there are a few passages that I don't think reconcile fully with the Calvinist viewpoint. Let me point out, on that note, that there are legitimate Arminians who also believe in OSAS, and they are typically of the Classical Arminian variety, though there may also be Wesleyan Arminians who hold that position as well.

There are two major issues that I have not reconciled:

One is the notion of apostasy, particularly the statement in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. If you accept the doctrines of TULIP, this verse is problematic, I think. Number one, is that you must answer the question of "What are they falling away/rebelling/etc from?" before you can proceed. Obviously, one could retort that this speaks to the non-elect who play church. Yet, how do you fall away from that which you never had?

The second response to apostasy, I think, would be that the falling away is more general and refers to all of the other religions (and lack of religion) out there that does not point to Jesus Christ. While this seems compelling, Christ didn't die for them per limited atonement (tuLip), so the question again returns to falling away from what?

Other passages, like 1 Timothy 1:19 are ambiguous when it comes to soteriological considerations as I have seen both sides provide solid interpretations of where this is going.

That being said - I don't believe you can lose salvation, in the sense that you see it one day and cannot find it the next. (Romans 8:38-39) If we follow the covenantal logic, then it would mean that one side could withdraw. The Bible is very clear that God doesn't do that on a whim or mood swing; He loves us much beyond that petty sort of thing. The question then, is can we withdraw?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The question then, is can we withdraw?

Of course. There wouldn't be warnings against it if it weren't not only possible, but a dire danger. Those who love the world make themselves enemies of GOD.

The parable of the sower teaches that some reject the good news, some receive it eagerly but fall away under persecution, some receive it but let it die within them because of their greater love for the world, and some persevere and bring forth fruit, which proves their faith. In the first three, the love of self is greater than love of GOD. Love of self is, or produces, denial of the lord.

 

[Guestman]

We need to consider what denial actually means. At the time, Peter did not fully grasp what was occurring. His master was being betrayed and he had personal fear,
His denial was whether or not he was with Jesus, but the fact was that he had followed Him and was nearby. His heart was not in the wrong place. In fact, it hurt him a great deal when he realized what he had done. After the resurrection, things were made clear to all the disciples as to the necessity of the events and death of Jesus. This was not yet fully revealed to them on the night of His betrayal. They had not been yet filled with the Holy Spirit as well. At one point after Pentecost they had even prayed for boldness and were filled. This boldness was absent that previous night, as they had no idea what was going on.


I think many have already concurred that it is possible to fall away. However, The point I made earlier was that God is not going to judge a believer God will not reject one of His. He will assure. We will not lose favor if we remain in the faith. From His perspective and by His promise, 'always saved'.
But I also have commented on the narrow gate. Jesus said that few were entering. This is because at that time, there was no covenant of grace and no gospel, no death, no resurrection of the Lord. Of course it would have been hard to enter under the law. Jesus was not speaking of the future, He was speaking of a dilemma that He had fully intended to solve on our behalf. He was successful. Faith is not a hard road. It is so easy that John eventually saw a multitude that no one could number, standing before the throne. If you insist on quoting from the past, to those situations prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus, then just what do you believe was accomplished at Cavalry? Nothing? His sacrifice is superior to the blood of bulls and goats, which also had kept them in good standing.

Drifting away is not equivalent to losing favor. It is equivalent to rejecting favor. If you deliberately throw something way, you did not lose it. But how do we do that? By falling from faith.

But a reminder, falling from faith can be done in more than one fashion. Yes, it can be done by going back to a life without God. But it also can be done by attempting to go over Jesus' head and be justified by one's own means. It is by One Man that we stand justified before God. How many have the humility to accept this? How many would prefer to present their own righteousness to God?
I can assure you that this latter scenario is far greater and far more common that the one where some walk away altogether. Man's pride has always been the real issue. It is as real in religion as it is outside of it.

That following the "one faith" (Eph 4:5) that Jesus established would be very difficult, he said: "Exert yourselves vigorously ("vigorously", Greek agonizesthe, meaning "to struggle, to contend with an adversary", from which comes the English word agonize) to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)


To further show that few would be willing to agonize or vigorously struggle to get in through the "narrow door", he said that this "narrow door" would be closed to most, though these would "knock", asking the householder to open the door. But the householder (Jesus Christ) then tells them: "I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of lawlessness ! "(Luke 13:27)


Jesus does not recognize these ones who make a profession of Christianity but fails to agonize in doing God's will, such as being morally clean in both speech and conduct, faithfully carrying out the commission of preaching "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14) from "house to house" (Acts 5:42; 20:20), who fail to make known God's name of Jehovah and be his witnesses as Jesus was (Rev 3:14), who fail to be "no part of the world" (John 15:19), and who fail to not be touching the "unclean thing" such as fornication and smoking (2 Cor 6:18, as well as any tobacco and drug abuse), who fail to abstain from the political arena as well as having a "fleshly" view of life.(Rom 8:5), who fail to "abstain from blood", such as blood transfusions (Acts 15:20; Lev 17:10), who fail to discard the "love of money".(Luke 16:13, 14; 1 Tim 6:10)

To these ones, Jesus tells them to "I never knew you ! Get away from me you workers of lawlessness !".(Matt 7:23) At Matthew 7, he furthermore said "by their fruits" a true Christian would be recognized: "Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men."(Matt 7:17-20)


Yes, by their "fruits" or conduct can these be seen as either genuine or counterfeit. Most never "make the grade", producing "rotten fruit", unwilling to "strip off the old personality with its (immoral and unclean) practices, and cloth (themselves) with the new personality."(Col 3:9, 10)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus does not recognize these ones who make a profession of Christianity but fails to agonize in doing God's will, such as being morally clean in both speech and conduct, faithfully carrying out the commission of preaching "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14) from "house to house" (Acts 5:42; 20:20), who fail to make known God's name of Jehovah and be his witnesses as Jesus was (Rev 3:14), who fail to be "no part of the world" (John 15:19), and who fail to not be touching the "unclean thing" such as fornication and smoking (2 Cor 6:18, as well as any tobacco and drug abuse), who fail to abstain from the political arena as well as having a "fleshly" view of life.(Rom 8:5), who fail to "abstain from blood", such as blood transfusions (Acts 15:20; Lev 17:10), who fail to discard the "love of money".(Luke 16:13, 14; 1 Tim 6:10)

I hate it when people take what is simple and turn it into a list of rules like the above. Of course, you're a jehovahs' witness. What more could be expected from one who has been indoctrinated by that cult?

 

[justaname]

Well it's pretty obvious that Peter denied the lord, repented, and was saved. It's also pretty obvious that if we deny the lord, he will deny us (otherwise Paul was bearing false witness).

So we can conclude from this that the lord will only deny someone if that someone persists in denial of the lord.

OSAS only works if a believer doesn't irredeemably deny the lord. Whatever irredeemably means is determined by the lord.

Thank you for your statement. This points to a great hermeneutic principle. Scripture is never wrong, only the interpretation.
Lets go to the passage... without forcing a round peg in a square hole.

2Timothy 2:8-13

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Paul speaks of enduring so the chosen might obtain salvation. (verse 10) Without question those who died with Him will live with Him (verse 11). This is being created anew. The denial portion is more difficult to comprehend from this context... so lets look to the remainder of scripture to see what God's word has to say.

(cf also Matthew 10:33 and Luke 12:9)

From the Matthew and Luke passages Jesus was speaking telling people to not fear, but to proclaim Him boldly to other men. From the context of the believer, we do just that, so it is difficult to apply denial. If you are truly a believer gaining salvation you do proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. Perhaps when Paul uses this statement he is using the word "we" as a more general term like "we humans" as opposed to a more specific term like "we Christians." It can easily be gleaned from the gospels Jesus is not speaking of believers, He was speaking of converts. To confess Jesus before men is to be before the Father by Jesus. To deny Jesus before men is to be denied before the Father. Only non-believers deny Jesus as Lord.

I find the argument for the perseverance of the saints quite compelling.

However, there are a few passages that I don't think reconcile fully with the Calvinist viewpoint. Let me point out, on that note, that there are legitimate Arminians who also believe in OSAS, and they are typically of the Classical Arminian variety, though there may also be Wesleyan Arminians who hold that position as well.

There are two major issues that I have not reconciled:

One is the notion of apostasy, particularly the statement in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. If you accept the doctrines of TULIP, this verse is problematic, I think. Number one, is that you must answer the question of "What are they falling away/rebelling/etc from?" before you can proceed. Obviously, one could retort that this speaks to the non-elect who play church. Yet, how do you fall away from that which you never had?

The second response to apostasy, I think, would be that the falling away is more general and refers to all of the other religions (and lack of religion) out there that does not point to Jesus Christ. While this seems compelling, Christ didn't die for them per limited atonement (tuLip), so the question again returns to falling away from what?

Other passages, like 1 Timothy 1:19 are ambiguous when it comes to soteriological considerations as I have seen both sides provide solid interpretations of where this is going.

That being said - I don't believe you can lose salvation, in the sense that you see it one day and cannot find it the next. (Romans 8:38-39) If we follow the covenantal logic, then it would mean that one side could withdraw. The Bible is very clear that God doesn't do that on a whim or mood swing; He loves us much beyond that petty sort of thing. The question then, is can we withdraw?

I like your approach, because you truly seek truth with an open mind.

Let me first say I do not take a five point stance on Calvinism...
That out of the way, I am certain you have read the commentaries with the 1 Timothy 1:19 passage so I need not go into that one and I have already posted to the apostasy subject.

To the question...
Yes humans can withdraw, but let me qualify. Those who withdraw were never going to be saved from God's perspective. He already knows our end so in that sense salvation was never on the table to be gained and then lost. I do not hold that anyone who has a salvific faith will walk away from salvation; not that we can't rather that we will not. (Jeremiah 32:40)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Only non-believers deny Jesus as Lord.

Yet a believer can become an unbeliever.

 

[Guestman]

I hate it when people take what is simple and turn it into a list of rules like the above. Of course, you're a jehovahs' witness. What more could be expected from one who has been indoctrinated by that cult?

The churches have failed in grasping what the Bible really teaches. For example, they reject God's name of Jehovah, despite it being in the original Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts some 7,000 times in the form of the Tetragrammaton. In spite of Jesus teaching his disciples to pray for God's name to "hallowed" or sanctified at Matthew 6:9, only genuine Christians have followed through on this, praying for and seeking to hallow God's name of Jehovah.


Others that profess to be "Christian" have hid this most holy name or mocked it. But to their chagrin, God's name is now being put in the "spotlight" more than ever. In fact, the day is coming in the near future when all nations of the earth will see Jehovah's name exalted earth wide, to their lamentation.(Matt 24:30)


At Ezekiel 36, just as the nations that attacked the fleshly nation of Israel, these received a "reply", for it says that "I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned ("profane", Hebrew chalal, meaning "to treat casually or make common") among the nations.....and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."(Eze 36:23)


In 1513 B.C.E., Pharaoh mocked Jehovah God, saying: "Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away ? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away."(Ex 5:2) Though having ten damaging plagues done to him and his people, he remained obstinate. Jehovah told Moses that Pharaoh's "heart" would stay hard even before the plagues came upon the land of Egypt.(Ex 4:21) What resulted ? At the Red Sea, he and his military force were wiped out.(Ex 14:28; Ps 136:15)


Concerning grasping the meaning of "God's kingdom", Jesus used the Greek syniemi some 6 times at Matthew 13 (verses 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51), that means "to mentally put the pieces together", and is rendered as "getting the sense of it." Most who profess Christianity are unable to "mentally put the pieces together" of the "kingdom". These "beat around the bush" but cannot give any depth of understanding regarding it, what it is, when it came in existence and when it became operational, what its purpose is and how it will be used to "hallow" God's name of Jehovah.(Matt 6:9, 10)

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The churches have failed in grasping what the Bible really teaches. For example, they reject God's name of Jehovah, despite it being in the original Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts some 7,000 times in the form of the Tetragrammaton. In spite of Jesus teaching his disciples to pray for God's name to "hallowed" or sanctified at Matthew 6:9, only genuine Christians have followed through on this, praying for and seeking to hallow God's name of Jehovah.

Others that profess to be "Christian" have hid this most holy name or mocked it. But to their chagrin, God's name is now being put in the "spotlight" more than ever. In fact, the day is coming in the near future when all nations of the earth will see Jehovah's name exalted earth wide, to their lamentation.(Matt 24:30)

At Ezekiel 36, just as the nations that attacked the fleshly nation of Israel, these received a "reply", for it says that "I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned ("profane", Hebrew chalal, meaning "to treat casually or make common") among the nations.....and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."(Eze 36:23)

In 1513 B.C.E., Pharaoh mocked Jehovah God, saying: "Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away ? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away."(Ex 5:2) Though having ten damaging plagues done to him and his people, he remained obstinate. Jehovah told Moses that Pharaoh's "heart" would stay hard even before the plagues came upon the land of Egypt.(Ex 4:21) What resulted ? At the Red Sea, he and his military force were wiped out.(Ex 14:28; Ps 136:15)

Concerning grasping the meaning of "God's kingdom", Jesus used the Greek syniemi some 6 times at Matthew 13 (verses 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51), that means "to mentally put the pieces together", and is rendered as "getting the sense of it." Most who profess Christianity are unable to "mentally put the pieces together" of the "kingdom". These "beat around the bush" but cannot give any depth of understanding regarding it, what it is, when it came in existence and when it became operational, what its purpose is and how it will be used to "hallow" God's name of Jehovah.(Matt 6:9, 10)

Jehovah is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, a vocalization of theTetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, which has also been transcribed as "Yehowah" or "Yahweh".
יְהֹוָה appears 6,518 times in the traditional Masoretic Text, in addition to 305 instances ofיֱהֹוִה (Jehovih). The earliest available Latin text to use a vocalization similar to Jehovahdates from the 13th century.
Most scholars believe "Jehovah" to be a late (ca. 1100 CE) hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai, but there is some evidence that it may already have been in use in Late Antiquity (5th century).The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of theredaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh... .

The most widely accepted pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is Yahweh, though Jehovah is used in many Bibles, but in few modern ones.


You know my father was a JW and he now takes his place amongst the dead of sheol and will reside forever in gehenna. So will you, if the LORD GOD doesn't open your eyes.

 

[justaname]

Yet a believer can become an unbeliever.

Or is it the non-believer realizes they were a non-believer all along.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Or is it the non-believer realizes they were a non-believer all along.

If that was true, there wouldn't be so many warnings to watch to keep our garment clean. Remember. some believed, but were overcome by cares of the world or persecutions (parable of the sower).

 

[justaname]

If that was true, there wouldn't be so many warnings to watch to keep our garment clean.

Or you have that fact that sin exists in or human experience. Becoming a Christian does not mean you immediately stop sinning all together. The exhortations are to not sin, because that is not Christlike. Also we are called to walk in the Spirit and to live holy. Yet none of this says we can gain salvation and then lose it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Or you have that fact that sin exists in or human experience. Becoming a Christian does not mean you immediately stop sinning all together. The exhortations are to not sin, because that is not Christlike. Also we are called to walk in the Spirit and to live holy. Yet none of this says we can gain salvation and then lose it.

I'm not equating 'keeping out garment clean' with not sinning. Keeping our garment clean (IMO) means abiding in the truth that the blood of the lamb covers our sins, acknowledging to ourselves and GOD that we do indeed sin and are sinful, and exercising our wills to turn away from sin.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ever wonder why Peter spoke of a "hope for salvation"?

Personally, I like to view spiritual realities in terms related to family. A very good example is found in the parable of the loving Father found in Luke 15.