The Doctrine of OSAS

[Foreigner]

Yet a believer can become an unbeliever.

-- And a believer can quit serving God altogether, not doing what God call him/her to do.
This even though the person knows that God exists.

Just because you gave your life to Christ doesn't mean you a guaranteed salvation. Doing what Christ requires of you and living in a relationship with HIm does.

 

[williemac]

Even the name Jesus is Latin for Yeshua.

Then why do you call Him Jesus? You are using the Latin name for YHWH, in calling Him Jehovah, are you not? Why the inconsistency?

Actually, most Christians know and believe that Jehovah is a proper name for God. In a song that I have led in worship there is a line..."there is no God like Jehovah" . I don't know why the leaders of your organization are pretending that this is the main issue that validates the organization, when all along, no one is really arguing the use of the name. What many of us disagree on is the invalidation of those who are not in your organization. And then when some invalidate your organization, some of you get all uptight about it. Take a pill! Lighten up! Chill out! Smile, God (Jehovah) loves us all.
He sent His Son to redeem us all. It is in His Son that we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin. As the head of His church that He promised He would build, it is He whom we are to serve. He said in as much as you do it to the least of these, you did it to Me. Why on earth would you accept that they who are serving Jesus are not automatically serving Jehovah in the process?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

However, I would like to read to you Heb.10:18 .." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin."
It follows on the heels of the promise that "their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more"
So here, the author talks of remission of sin. Remission is removal.

The Greek word translated remission actually means freedom, as in being freed from bondage.

G859 ἄφεσις aphesis (af'-es-is) n.
1. freedom

I think there is a problem interpreting 'remission of sin' as 'a removal of sin', because any honest person knows sin dwells within his being. Even thinking that GOD has removed our sins from his record is problematic because sin is still with us, and we still sin, or are aware of the possibility of doing so. So that tends to keep us in bondage to sin. What frees us from bondage is the witness of the spirit that the sin penalties that occurred before the cross are now passed over through the blood of the lamb. This truth is set forth in both Romans 3:25 and 2 Peter 1:9, in which the Greek wording meaning sin effects (results of sin) is wrongly translated sins.

Actually, most Christians know and believe that Jehovah is a proper name for God. In a song that I have led in worship there is a line..."there is no God like Jehovah" . I don't know why the leaders of your organization are pretending that this is the main issue that validates the organization, when all along, no one is really arguing the use of the name. What many of us disagree on is the invalidation of those who are not in your organization. And then when some invalidate your organization, some of you get all uptight about it. Take a pill! Lighten up! Chill out! Smile, God (Jehovah) loves us all.

So true. Does a father really care what his son calls him?

 

[williemac]

-- And a believer can quit serving God altogether, not doing what God call him/her to do.
This even though the person knows that God exists.

Just because you gave your life to Christ doesn't mean you a guaranteed salvation. Doing what Christ requires of you and living in a relationship with HIm does.

The guarantee comes from the indwelling presence of the Holy spirit. What Christ requires of us is to believe on Him (John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:50,51) for everlasting life. He who has the Son has life. Knowing He exists is not what gives us life. Does anyone think for a moment that one who has the Son will quit walking with Him altogether? Your dreaming. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Read my previous post, please.

The Greek word translated remission actually means freedom, as in being freed from bondage.

G859 ἄφεσις aphesis (af'-es-is) n.
1. freedom

I think there is a problem interpreting 'remission of sin' as 'a removal of sin', because any honest person knows sin dwells within his being. Even thinking that GOD has removed our sins from his record is problematic because sin is still with us, and we still sin, or are aware of the possibility of doing so. So that tends to keep us in bondage to sin. What frees us from bondage is the witness of the spirit that the sin penalties that occurred before the cross are now passed over through the blood of the lamb. This truth is set forth in both Romans 3:25 and 2 Peter 1:9, in which the Greek wording meaning sin effects (results of sin) is wrongly translated sins.

Hey, bro. I merely quoted the passage. I think the real problem is that maybe some do not believe that their sins have been remitted, removed, taken away. These are the terms used by the author of Hebrews. Either believe them or not. But don't try to explain them away.

Rom.3:25 is a comparison between the time before the sacrifice of Jesus and the time after, as seen in the context. As we can plainly see in Hebrews, His sacrifice does much more than pass over our sins. If it did not take them away as 10:4 says of the blood of bulls and goats, then it is no more effective than the blood of bulls and goats. Your dispute is not with me, it is with the author of Hebrews. But I will try to explain how they have been taken away. It is by way of the old man being crucified with Christ. Our old man is dead. There are two parts to the believer. The flesh and the spirit. The flesh, (old man) the body of sin, is considered dead. It is positionally crucified with Christ. The new man is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). Therefore God sees us according to that which He has given life to and no longer sees us according to that which He has crucified with His Son. Any sin that remains within us is attributed to the dead man and not the new man. Therefore the sins are not merely covered over or passed over, as previous to Calvary. (Rom.3:26) They are judged and the penalty has been applied. Thus they have been removed from any attachment to the believer...past, present, and future. It is finished. The old man cannot come down off of the cross (torture stake for those who call it that), as long as the believer remains in the faith, the acceptance of the sacrifice. I would humbly caution you that if you do not think His sacrifice can be applied to future sin, then maybe you do not accept it for such. Where there is remission, there is no longer an offering. Did you even bother to consider all of my previous communication?,,,,or are you merely arguing for argument sake? I went into much detail concerning Heb.10. You are disputing the text, my friend. It says what it says.

I came back to add one thing. The problem that many have with this interpretation is that in their viewpoint it provides this thing called a license to sin. However, This conclusion does not take into consideration that Jesus reserves the right to chasten His own. We can agree on one thing. He will not let a person get away with sinning. But as He promised in John5:24, judgment to death is off the table. I have mentioned chastening in the past. It is a promise. Therefore there is no license to sin. If there were, He could not justify chastening.

Therefore the conclusion that if future sin is also forgiven this would provide a license to sin, is a false conclusion.

So it is the sacrifice for sin that overcomes the penalty for sin. It is our faith in this (in Him) that overcomes the world (1John5:4). And it is His right to deal with a sinning believer His way. Why don't we just let Him do things His way? Sin has always been a problem that man cannot solve. So why are people still trying to solve it?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The guarantee comes from the indwelling presence of the Holy spirit. What Christ requires of us is to believe on Him (John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:50,51) for everlasting life. He who has the Son has life. Knowing He exists is not what gives us life. Does anyone think for a moment that one who has the Son will quit walking with Him altogether? Your dreaming. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Read my previous post, please.

Hey, bro. I merely quoted the passage. I think the real problem is that maybe some do not believe that their sins have been remitted, removed, taken away. These are the terms used by the author of Hebrews. Either believe them or not. But don't try to explain them away.

Nobody's sins have been taken away. That doesn't happen until the end of the age. The sins of Israel were covered over for the entire year, but weren't sent away until the end of the year on the day of atonement when they were placed on the scapegoat that was sent away into the wilderness. The fulfillment of that day is yet future. Can you look at yourself and the world around you and honestly say that sin has been removed?

What has happened is that we have received freedom from bondage to sin. It is still with us, but we are not bound to it. Therefore, we have a choice to serve the old man or the new.

I'm not arguing or trying to find fault with what you say. I was merely trying to provide clarity to the verse. Remission of sin is freedom from the power of sin, not it's removal. We have to contend with it every day.

 

[justaname]

There seems to be the belief that someone can walk away from the faith...
Again this contradicts scripture.
Luke 15:4-6
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Some would need to interpret this to say...Jesus will not "go over the will" of the sheep who wants to walk away from the fold, as to which I say BAAAHHH!!! You must believe in some weak god.

Proverbs 21:1

1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.

God is sovereign over the will of all of humanity.

Luke 15:8-9
8 “Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?
9 “When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’

Maybe the woman should have said, forget that coin I have enough money.

John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Is Jesus just fibbing here? Where are all the conditions and contradictions to the gospel everyone is talking about? The truth is the gospel does not come with conditions. The everlasting covenant is not a suzerainty treaty. The New Covenant is one that God established on His own accord without conditions.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.​

8 For finding fault with them, He says,​

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, ​

When I will effect a new covenant ​

With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; ​

9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers​

On the day when I took them by the hand ​

To lead them out of the land of Egypt; ​

For they did not continue in My covenant, ​

And I did not care for them, says the Lord. ​

10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel​

After those days, says the Lord: ​

I will put My laws into their minds, ​

And I will write them on their hearts. ​

And I will be their God, ​

And they shall be My people. ​

11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,​

And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ ​

For all will know Me, ​

From the least to the greatest of them. ​

12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,​

And I will remember their sins no more.” ​

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

Notice God is the enactor, the enabler, the provider. Once His laws are in your mind and on your heart, you are His sheep, and He will tear down the walls of Sheol to keep you. Death no longer has power over you, and sin is not stronger than God, for our God is Thee God and forgives sin! You cannot wander from the fold, He will go looking for you, and He will find you. Or do you think some can hide from the ever presence of the Lord?

Someone who believes you can lose your salvation, please explain John 6:37-40 for me so I can comprehend your theology.
When you finish that I have several other verses so please be patient and prepared.

This may step on some toes so read on with caution...

Those who believe you can lose your faith, walk away from the faith, or sin your way out of the fold are actually arrogant and prideful. You desire to be the one in control of your salvation. You believe your salvation is contingent on you and what you do and not on God and what He did. From this perspective you are the ultimate author of your faith, not God. You think God does not go over the will of humanity which drips of arrogance. God is sovereign, not free will. Man's will is against God, in constant rebellion. It is only when God intervienes and instills His good and prefect HolySpirt can we truly be free. Those He chooses are His sheep and He does not lose any of His sheep, not a one.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Someone who believes you can lose your salvation, please explain John 6:37-40 for me so I can comprehend your theology.
When you finish that I have several other verses so please be patient and prepared.

Jesus will not drive anyone away, but he won't prevent those who want to leave from leaving. It's is GOD's will that all men be saved, but he will not override the wills of any who don't want him.

 

[justaname]

Jesus will not drive anyone away, but he won't prevent those who want to leave from leaving. It's is GOD's will that all men be saved, but he will not override the wills of any who don't want him.

Where in the passage does it say this "but he will not override the wills of any who don't want him."
Is there any supporting scripture here either?

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus will not drive anyone away, but he won't prevent those who want to leave from leaving. It's is GOD's will that all men be saved, but he will not override the wills of any who don't want him.

I agree, but when does Father quit working according to His will and purpose?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree, but when does Father quit working according to His will and purpose?

GOD knows when, or if, someone will return. I don't.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Romans 11:22
This context is kindness not salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27
This verse does not speak to lose of salvation in the believer either. You are assuming the one receiving the knowledge of truth is also believing that knowledge onto a salvific faith then turning from it. The author could easily be speaking of those who were spoken of long ago. Jude 1:4

2Peter 2:20-22
Again the Jude passage is fitting. We know this because the subject matter here is false prophets. 2Peter 2:1

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. The people who fall for their teachings are not going to be saved and we already know that, thereby they cannot lose a salvation they never had.

1 Corinthians 9:27
Paul states he practices what he preaches.

Matthew 10:22
This passage advocates OSAS

2 Peter 3:17
Peter is again teaching against what others might have heard, that they can live a life of lawlessness. Again Jude 1:4

Revelation 3:5
How do you know who is written in the book of life and who is not. Possibly everyone ever born is in there.

Revelation 22:19
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all mankind, thereby all can have a share in the tree unless they are not found in the book.


OSAS does not advocate lawlessness, only the assuredness of the truth of the word. Those who are God's sheep always are and will always be, especially from God's perspective. If you think that gives you license to sin, then you probably are not one of the fold.

Now to the other side of the coin, perhaps some do lose a form of faith or a type of belief. This I cannot deny, only the qualifier is that faith never was and never will be salvific. Salvation's requirement is belief, those who are His believe until the end, this is assured by Him. Hebrews 12:2

Again I believe many have it wrong to what OSAS means. This is simply the belief that God will finish what He started in the believer, the new creation. It does not advocate "an alter call and I'm good" attitude, nor lawlessness. It affirms what Jesus says that whosoever believes in the Son of man will have eternal life.

1John 5:4-5

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This does not say whatever is born of God might overcome the world as long as they stop sinning, and abide in Christ, and believe into Christ, and have faith until the end. That which is born of God does all these because God is purposing that to happen in their lives. You can not simply live your life as you please, because the new creature seeks to please God. Fools believe you can make a hollow claim and go about life deliberately sinning. I am not a fool under this impression, rather one that believes in the truth of the gospel, a fool for Christ.

I do not see the glass half empty waiting for me to fill it to earn my salvation, Jesus did everything needed for a full cup of salvation.


I read this and found it interesting and relevant although I do not agree with the entire tract.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

You are all over the board on this one. Unfortunately, most of what you are claiming here is wrong.

ALL of thes verses I presented speak of losing salvation that you once HAD. It might interest you to know that in verses such as Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 - the word used here for knowledge is not the normal use (gnosis). thje writers have used the term, EPOGNOSIS, which means a real, true, experiential knowledge. These verses speak to those who have truly experienced Christ and have truly believed - and have LOST their way or are in danger of doing so.

The rationalizing you have doe with the rest of thes verses I supplie d is just that - rationalization.
There are very clear, yet you have attempted to blur them so as not to expose the false, manmade doctrine of OSAS that you adhere to.doctrine.

 

[justaname]

You are all over the board on this one. Unfortunately, most of what you are claiming here is wrong.

ALL of thes verses I presented speak of losing salvation that you once HAD. It might interest you to know that in verses such as Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 - the word used here for knowledge is not the normal use (gnosis). thje writers have used the term, EPOGNOSIS, which means a real, true, experiential knowledge. These verses speak to those who have truly experienced Christ and have truly believed - and have LOST their way or are in danger of doing so.

The rationalizing you have doe with the rest of thes verses I supplie d is just that - rationalization.
There are very clear, yet you have attempted to blur them so as not to expose the false, manmade doctrine of OSAS that you adhere to.doctrine.

No you refuse to acknowledge the truth of how context reveals the intent of the author. These lost ones spoken of in the 2 Peter epistle are clearly the false prophets. Do you truly believe God was fooled by the faith of these false prophets then had to remit His HolySpirit? Salvation was/is never on the agenda for God for these condemned ones.

What a classic distraction by providing scripture that seems to contradict what I am conveying instead of addressing the scripture I provided directly.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Why does this not say these might be the sons of God if they endure?

Romans 8:29-31

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Perhaps you could explain this one? Why is the aorist tense used?

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God inspired Paul to insert "life" here. Not even our life can separate us from the love of God. Now that is powerful and speaks volumes to OSAS!

OK here is another one the book of Romans in that same chapter.

Romans 1:8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Completely free from sin and death, amazing isn't it? The gospel is truly inspiring and instills great confidence.
What are God's words in the gospel?
Luke 15:4-6
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you see whose will these are born from? Not their own because it was not the will of man.

John 3:14-18

14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No judgement. Notice what it is that gains entrance, belief.

John 6:37-40

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

These all speak to the assurance of salvation for those who believe. God is the One who is the assurance of salvation, because salvation is built upon His promises from an unconditional New Covenant, not like the one made to those who were lost in the wilderness spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-27.

Now I want to present the gospel, in it's entirety so no one can dispute the truth therein.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

According to you verse 10 should say might result in salvation :unsure:

Lets look into the everlasting covenant a little more...
Jeremiah 32:38-40
38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

These words of God's completely trump anything you attempt to present from texts that seem to imply lose of salvation.


Please speak to the passages, and explain them in context showing me how I have interpreted them improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to these verses. Lets start here then maybe I can be convinced someone can fall from God's grace, that He initiated, is protecting, and has promised to see fit until the end.

 

[williemac]

No you refuse to acknowledge the truth of how context reveals the intent of the author. These lost ones spoken of in the 2 Peter epistle are clearly the false prophets. Do you truly believe God was fooled by the faith of these false prophets then had to remit His HolySpirit? Salvation was/is never on the agenda for God for these condemned ones.

What a classic distraction by providing scripture that seems to contradict what I am conveying instead of addressing the scripture I provided directly.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Why does this not say these might be the sons of God if they endure?

Romans 8:29-31

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Perhaps you could explain this one? Why is the aorist tense used?

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God inspired Paul to insert "life" here. Not even our life can separate us from the love of God. Now that is powerful and speaks volumes to OSAS!

OK here is another one the book of Romans in that same chapter.

Romans 1:8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Completely free from sin and death, amazing isn't it? The gospel is truly inspiring and instills great confidence.
What are God's words in the gospel?
Luke 15:4-6
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you see whose will these are born from? Not their own because it was not the will of man.

John 3:14-18

14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No judgement. Notice what it is that gains entrance, belief.

John 6:37-40

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

These all speak to the assurance of salvation for those who believe. God is the One who is the assurance of salvation, because salvation is built upon His promises from an unconditional New Covenant, not like the one made to those who were lost in the wilderness spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-27.

Now I want to present the gospel, in it's entirety so no one can dispute the truth therein.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

According to you verse 10 should say might result in salvation :unsure:

Lets look into the everlasting covenant a little more...
Jeremiah 32:38-40
38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

These words of God's completely trump anything you attempt to present from texts that seem to imply lose of salvation.


Please speak to the passages, and explain them in context showing me how I have interpreted them improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to these verses. Lets start here then maybe I can be convinced someone can fall from God's grace, that He initiated, is protecting, and has promised to see fit until the end.

Very nice post, Justaname . I like your reply concerning context. Context is overlooked quite often as the first place to look in order to determine an author's meaning or intent. Context is especially crucial in regards to understanding Heb.10:26. I am disappointed at how many refuse to consider the last verse in that chapter. As far as Heb.6:1-6, I will concede that it appears to be speaking of a person who has fallen away from the gift of life. However, because I see the word "if", it may well be a hypothetical situation used to explain why the foundations need not be repeated, as it insists that salvation cannot be repeated. Blessings, Howie

 

[ChurchAuthority]

No you refuse to acknowledge the truth of how context reveals the intent of the author. These lost ones spoken of in the 2 Peter epistle are clearly the false prophets. Do you truly believe God was fooled by the faith of these false prophets then had to remit His HolySpirit? Salvation was/is never on the agenda for God for these condemned ones.

What a classic distraction by providing scripture that seems to contradict what I am conveying instead of addressing the scripture I provided directly.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Why does this not say these might be the sons of God if they endure?

Romans 8:29-31

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Perhaps you could explain this one? Why is the aorist tense used?

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God inspired Paul to insert "life" here. Not even our life can separate us from the love of God. Now that is powerful and speaks volumes to OSAS!

OK here is another one the book of Romans in that same chapter.

Romans 1:8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Completely free from sin and death, amazing isn't it? The gospel is truly inspiring and instills great confidence.
What are God's words in the gospel?
Luke 15:4-6
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you see whose will these are born from? Not their own because it was not the will of man.

John 3:14-18

14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No judgement. Notice what it is that gains entrance, belief.

John 6:37-40

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

These all speak to the assurance of salvation for those who believe. God is the One who is the assurance of salvation, because salvation is built upon His promises from an unconditional New Covenant, not like the one made to those who were lost in the wilderness spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-27.

Now I want to present the gospel, in it's entirety so no one can dispute the truth therein.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

According to you verse 10 should say might result in salvation :unsure:

Lets look into the everlasting covenant a little more...
Jeremiah 32:38-40
38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

These words of God's completely trump anything you attempt to present from texts that seem to imply lose of salvation.


Please speak to the passages, and explain them in context showing me how I have interpreted them improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to these verses. Lets start here then maybe I can be convinced someone can fall from God's grace, that He initiated, is protecting, and has promised to see fit until the end.

[SIZE=small]You HAVE perverted many of these verses.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]On Romans 8:38-39, you commented, “God inspired Paul to insert "life" here. Not even our life can separate us from the love of God. Now that is powerful and speaks volumes to OSAS!”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]This is not what the passage is saying at ALL. He’s not saying that OUR life can’t take us away from God. He’s talking about the THINGS in life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Possessions can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Relationships can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Any given situation can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]YOU can turn away from God but nothing can MAKE you turn away. You can’t blame anybody or anything but yourself. This is why Jesus said that only those who DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21) and those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13, 25:31–46[/SIZE]). Salvation is a process – not a slam-dunk, one-time event.

[SIZE=small]As for false profits, MANY are given the initial grace of salvation and turn into something quite different later. One example that comes to mind is the late comedian, Sam Kinison, who was a child-preaching prodigy. He was a fierce believer in Christ and later turned away from Him and fell into a life of decadence which finally led to his death.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]The Bible uses words that we can understand about God such as foreknowledge and predestined. God doesn’t foreknow anything – He knows everything all at once, like looking at a finished painting. He is in the eternal NOW.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]You have perverted Jeremiah 32:40, making it say something it doesn’t.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]God certainly puts the fear of Him in our hearts so we won’t turn away – HOWEVER, many do anyway. 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that ALL men to be saved and to come to the [/SIZE]knowledge of the truth. Does that mean that ALL will be saved?? NOT according to Jesus (Matt. 7:13-14, 21-23).

[SIZE=small]That’s the problem with this invention of Calvinism. God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into hell – nor is He a cosmic rapist who forces His love on us, dragging us kicking and screaming into heaven. The Pharisees thought as you do – that THEIR position was sosecure with God that they couldn’t fall. Peter, however, warns that we be on our guard so that we don’t fall from our “secure” position (2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please speak to the passages, and explain them in context showing me how I have interpreted them improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to these verses. Lets start here then maybe I can be convinced someone can fall from God's grace, that He initiated, is protecting, and has promised to see fit until the end.

Regarding:

• Romans 8:14 - if one stops being led of the spirit, how can he be called a son of GOD?
• Romans 8:29-31 - just because someone has tasted the glory of GOD doesn't mean they can't lose it. Hebrews 6:4-6 addresses that.
• Romans 8:38-39 - but denying the lord can
• Romans 1:8 - no condemnation is for those in Christ. If one denies Christ, there is only what Hebrews 10:26-27 describes.
• Luke 15:4-6 - yet if one persists in denying the lord, there is no scriptural evidence that this verse applies. Being lost and being a denier are two separate issues.
• John 1:12-13 - being born of GOD does not guarantee overcoming the world; faith is required. If the faith stops, so does overcoming. Only overcomers inherit the kingdom
• John 3:14-18 - there is no judgment as long as one continues to look to the cross. If one looks away to the world, he is lost.
• John 6:37-40 - It is not GOD's will that any be lost, and Jesus will not cast out any that come to him, but he will let go those who really don't want him and leave of their own accord
• Romans 10:8-13 - what happens if one stops calling on the name of the lord?
• Jeremiah 32:38-40 - yet there are those who do turn away from GOD and the new covenant

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The conclusion of the matter:


Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall 2Pe 1:2-10

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall 2Pe 1:2-10

I love that section of 2 Peter.

Let me restate a part of the last verse -you will never fall [GOD's guarantee and power], if ye do these things [man's obligation and work].


.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I love that section of 2 Peter.

Let me restate a part of the last verse -you will never fall [GOD's guarantee and power], if ye do these things [man's obligation and work].


.

Indeed. SHALOM

 

[justaname]

The conclusion of the matter:


Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall 2Pe 1:2-10

2 Peter 1:10-11

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This does not speak of lose of salvation, only stumbling in our walk.

And this speaks to the end result of that aspect.

Jude 24

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


Let me again make note for all to read, I in no way advocate lawlessness. I completely agree that bad trees bear rotten fruit. I also agree that sanctification is a cooperative practice, yet God is the enabler, we are merely cooperators.

[SIZE=small]You HAVE perverted many of these verses.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]On Romans 8:38-39, you commented, “God inspired Paul to insert "life" here. Not even our life can separate us from the love of God. Now that is powerful and speaks volumes to OSAS!”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]This is not what the passage is saying at ALL. He’s not saying that OUR life can’t take us away from God. He’s talking about the THINGS in life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Possessions can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Relationships can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Any given situation can’t tear you away from God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]YOU can turn away from God but nothing can MAKE you turn away. You can’t blame anybody or anything but yourself. This is why Jesus said that only those who DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21) and those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13, 25:31–46[/SIZE]). Salvation is a process – not a slam-dunk, one-time event.

[SIZE=small]As for false profits, MANY are given the initial grace of salvation and turn into something quite different later. One example that comes to mind is the late comedian, Sam Kinison, who was a child-preaching prodigy. He was a fierce believer in Christ and later turned away from Him and fell into a life of decadence which finally led to his death.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]The Bible uses words that we can understand about God such as foreknowledge and predestined. God doesn’t foreknow anything – He knows everything all at once, like looking at a finished painting. He is in the eternal NOW.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]You have perverted Jeremiah 32:40, making it say something it doesn’t.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]God certainly puts the fear of Him in our hearts so we won’t turn away – HOWEVER, many do anyway. 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that ALL men to be saved and to come to the [/SIZE]knowledge of the truth. Does that mean that ALL will be saved?? NOT according to Jesus (Matt. 7:13-14, 21-23).

[SIZE=small]That’s the problem with this invention of Calvinism. God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into hell – nor is He a cosmic rapist who forces His love on us, dragging us kicking and screaming into heaven. The Pharisees thought as you do – that THEIR position was sosecure with God that they couldn’t fall. Peter, however, warns that we be on our guard so that we don’t fall from our “secure” position (2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]).

[SIZE=small]This is [/SIZE]not[SIZE=small] what the passage is saying at [/SIZE]ALL[SIZE=small]. He’s [/SIZE]not[SIZE=small] saying that [/SIZE]OUR[SIZE=small] life can’t take us away from God. He’s talking about the [/SIZE]THINGS[SIZE=small] in life.[/SIZE]

Then why is life contrasted with death? Paul could have said "things in life" like you suggest yet he didn't.

As far as Sam, can you see into the hearts and minds of men as God does?

Where is my perversion of the Jeremiah text? The text speaks for itself, you are the one adding to the text not me. Perhaps you need to look at the three fingers point back at yourself as opposed to the one you are pointing at me. Why do you bring up Calvin?

My premise is this alone. Those God intends to save, are saved as promised, none will thwart God's intentions, not even ourselves.

Let me make this simpler.


John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Lets just work with this text for now. Please speak to the passage and explain it in context showing me how I have interpreted it improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to this verse.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I also agree that sanctification is a cooperative practice, yet God is the enabler, we are merely cooperators.

That sounds like what I believe.