The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

Hebrews 12:1-2

1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 3:7

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

Galatians 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jeremiah 32:40
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

John 10:27
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

If the God who gives the growth of your faith, is the author and perfecter of your faith, has given you the Spirit of faithfulness, has put fear in your heart so that you will not leave Him, and has said if you are His sheep you will follow Him, what makes you not believe Him?

Trust! Faith! Belief!
Do we not yet understand that this is what God is after? God wants us to believe His word, something most Jews never did. God wants us to trust Him with our lives and righteousness, not take our lives upon ourselves. God want's us to have faith that He will finish what He has begun. God is wooing us with His love so much He sent His only begotten Son to die for us, still we don't want to believe His word?

God does not save us so we can walk away, no God is much stronger than that! Those who walk away were never His to begin with, rather their father is the prince of the air. If you are His sheep, you will be saved, it is that simple.

Do you not understand that unbelief stems from satan? Satan is the father of lies, a fountain of such. If satan deceives you with unbelief, and your are one of God's sheep, then satan just snatched you from the Father's hand, and proved scripture a lie. So is satan greater than God and the truth? Vehemently NO! Then why should we be weak in our faith thinking we can lose it?

I say guard your faith from the sea of unbelief, yet you need not worry if your are His! Strengthen your faith being steeped in the word! Run the race as one who looks to finish, one who seeks the prize. Trust in your first love, God who is all powerful, the One who can keep you from all failure. Believe the gospel that has been given to us, that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe. Our hope is in the resurrection, our hope is in God, our hope is in truth, our hope is in love, our hope should not be in ourselves.

If you believe you can lose your faith, then how much do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? If you believe you can lose your faith, then how much do you believe God loves you and seeks your salvation for you? How much do you believe God is your strong tower, above all powers and principalities, protecting you with a jealous and holy love?

Perhaps you should look into your own faith instead of believing others can lose theirs. Maybe then you will come to a faith that is not shaken when the heavens are rolled up like a scroll. Maybe then you will hope in Him and not in yourself. Maybe then you will come to realize you cannot save yourself but you must depend on Him that is true.

Psalm 62:5-8

5 My soul, wait in silence for God only,
For my hope is from Him.
6 He only is my rock and my salvation,
My stronghold; I shall not be shaken.
7 On God my salvation and my glory rest;
The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.
8 Trust in Him at all times, O people;
Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us.

Selah

In my weakness He is strong, so let me be weak in all my days, that my strength be His alone.

 

[williemac]

If that was true, there wouldn't be so many warnings to watch to keep our garment clean. Remember. some believed, but were overcome by cares of the world or persecutions (parable of the sower).

We keep our garment clean by faith in the blood of the Lamb, which is what made it clean in the first place. To say that sin can defile the garment is to say that dirt can defile soap. We are washed by the blood. If we could have kept ourselves clean, Jesus would not have needed to remain seated at the right hand of the Father as our Advocate and High Priest.(1John2:1). Those who were overcome by the cares of the world had never been born again. Faith has a purpose. It is to bring us into right standing with God and into His presence, through the new birth. The new man is the new wineskin (the clean garment). The new wine is the Holy Spirit. These, once given, will never be taken away by God. The only way they can ever leave is through the subsequent rejection of the blood sacrifice of Jesus for sin. And this, if done, is permanent and cannot be reversed (Heb.6:6).

Because of Heb.6:6, we need to acknowledge that what we are calling salvation is a one time only event. If anyone feels they or someone else has lost salvation, then they need to reconcile with the fact that if this is true, there is no changing it back. Therefore, I think that what many have come up with concerning how to lose salvation, have come up with an error. There is no saved-lost, saved, lost...etc.

If you work for a living and shop for your food and clothing, and enjoy any kind of recreation at all, some would consider these the cares of the world. There will always be someone who has a higher standard than others by which they think we need to attain to to keep God pleased. This is because they have been led to believe that there is actually a standard that is to be kept by the Christian. So what is the real standard? There seems to be differences of opinion on this site. Some feel it is breached by a certain amount of sin. But no one can come up with an agreed measurement of just how much is too much. The term "willful" comes into play. But there are differences of opinion as to what that is. Some ignore the author's viewpoint (Heb.10:39) on it and make up their own.

However, there really is a standard in the bible. It is found in the law. If a person fails on any one point, he is found guilty of all. The standard is absolute purity and perfection (24/7) in moral behavior. Therefore the only realistic way we can overcome this standard is to be exempt from it. Hence the promise in John 5:24, that through faith in Him we will not be judged (by the law).

It is all about faith. It always has been and will never change in this age. God made a promise to Abraham. He believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. When He says " I will never leave you nor forsake you"..... When He says there is nothing that can separate us from His love... Do we take Him at His word? I really wonder.
This is that which overcomes the world....Our faith (1John 5:4).

It seems to me that our most vital role towards one another might well be to edify, uphold, and support one another in faith. On the other hand, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The problem I am beginning to see with the OSAS mentality is that it mirrors the Israelites belief that they could never lose salvation because they were sons of Abraham. Likewise many people today believe they can never lose salvation because they have been born again.

In the latter's minds since that birth cannot be undone, they will be saved. But they are failing to realize (at least) 2 things: 1) faith is required to keep the new life alive, and 2) they have been conceived, but not yet been fully born. We are as fetuses in the womb of Jerusalem.

Fetuses can abort or be stillborn.

That is why there are so many warnings to make our salvation sure by keeping the new life alive, and not letting it be overcome by the world and the deceitfulness of our own hearts.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Or is it the non-believer realizes they were a non-believer all along.

Actually - no.
A believe can indeed fall away and lose faith. The Scriptures tell us that much:
[SIZE=10pt]Romans 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 2:20-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ can fall back into darkness and lose their salvation by their own doing.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 3:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about those already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with?[/SIZE]

OSAS is Scripturally unteneble.
It is an invention of the Reformation.

 

[williemac]

The problem I am beginning to see with the OSAS mentality is that it mirrors the Israelites belief that they could never lose salvation because they were sons of Abraham. Likewise many people today believe they can never lose salvation because they have been born again.

In the latter's minds since that birth cannot be undone, they will be saved. But they are failing to realize (at least) 2 things: 1) faith is required to keep the new life alive, and 2) they have been conceived, but not yet been fully born. We are as fetuses in the womb of Jerusalem.

Fetuses can abort or be stillborn.

That is why there are so many warnings to make our salvation sure by keeping the new life alive, and not letting it be overcome by the world and the deceitfulness of our own hearts.

Are these really warnings? If I was to hear of a tornado warning in my area, I would take measures to keep myself from harm. That is what this word indicates. Possible or impending harm. To me, there is a "do this or else" mentality in the use of the word "warnings". ....Warning!...."You better watch out or your going to get it" !!

I wonder who it was who first decided to make a category called "warnings" and then find a bunch of passages that they shoved into this category. A fetus cannot abort itself., nor can it cause itself to be stillborn. But the bible is clear that we are not mere fetuses in Christ, anyway. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. (2Cor.5:17) The new man was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24). The old man is considered dead, crucified with Christ.

I rather prefer to hear about exhortations, instructions, commandments, directions, and things such as the good news that in order to keep our life in Christ, we merely are required to remain in the faith. How is this a warning? It is rather good news. Do we see warning signs in airplanes saying..."warning! Stay in the plane while flying!" ? Well....duh!

Is John 3:16 a warning? Believe on the Lord or perish. I thought the gospel meant good news, not bad news. Warnings are about bad news, not good. "Be warned...you better believe or else?" How about..." I have good news for you. Jesus died for your sin so that you can be reconciled to God. If you want this reconciliation, all that is required is that you accept His offering on your behalf for this reconciliation to take effect." Otherwise you will perish. And if you want to remain in this new life, simply remain in the same frame of mind that brought it to you...Faith! It was not hard to have the right kind of faith in the first place, was it? How is it somehow then changing for the worse once we arrive in Christ?

The good news is that for those who want to know God and live forever with Him, the way to life is easy, not hard. How is it good news if there are strings attached that are tough to keep? No, I am reasonably certain that there is an agenda behind the use of the word "warnings". Don't be falling for it. There is no fine print. God did all the work in creating us. He did all the work in re creating us.

As I shared earlier, and as quoted above,(#44)...our part is to remain in His goodness. I see all this hype that osas is not true, and the passages, as above quoted, to prove it. SO WHAT? That is hardly the point. Remaining in His goodness is not difficult, nor does it take any more or added effort than what got us in His goodness in the first place. You climbed into the plane. Now what? Stay in it, Einstein!

If I read between the lines, it seems that some would suggest that it takes more than faith to remain in His goodness. Not according to 1John5:4. This is that which overcomes the world...OUR FAITH! Will the "warn-ers" please acknowledge this revelation?

 

[justaname]

Actually - no.
A believe can indeed fall away and lose faith. The Scriptures tell us that much:
[SIZE=10pt]Romans 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 2:20-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ can fall back into darkness and lose their salvation by their own doing.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 3:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about those already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with?[/SIZE]

OSAS is Scripturally unteneble.
It is an invention of the Reformation.

Romans 11:22
This context is kindness not salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27
This verse does not speak to lose of salvation in the believer either. You are assuming the one receiving the knowledge of truth is also believing that knowledge onto a salvific faith then turning from it. The author could easily be speaking of those who were spoken of long ago. Jude 1:4

2Peter 2:20-22
Again the Jude passage is fitting. We know this because the subject matter here is false prophets. 2Peter 2:1

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. The people who fall for their teachings are not going to be saved and we already know that, thereby they cannot lose a salvation they never had.

1 Corinthians 9:27
Paul states he practices what he preaches.

Matthew 10:22
This passage advocates OSAS

2 Peter 3:17
Peter is again teaching against what others might have heard, that they can live a life of lawlessness. Again Jude 1:4

Revelation 3:5
How do you know who is written in the book of life and who is not. Possibly everyone ever born is in there.

Revelation 22:19
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all mankind, thereby all can have a share in the tree unless they are not found in the book.


OSAS does not advocate lawlessness, only the assuredness of the truth of the word. Those who are God's sheep always are and will always be, especially from God's perspective. If you think that gives you license to sin, then you probably are not one of the fold.

Now to the other side of the coin, perhaps some do lose a form of faith or a type of belief. This I cannot deny, only the qualifier is that faith never was and never will be salvific. Salvation's requirement is belief, those who are His believe until the end, this is assured by Him. Hebrews 12:2

Again I believe many have it wrong to what OSAS means. This is simply the belief that God will finish what He started in the believer, the new creation. It does not advocate "an alter call and I'm good" attitude, nor lawlessness. It affirms what Jesus says that whosoever believes in the Son of man will have eternal life.

1John 5:4-5

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This does not say whatever is born of God might overcome the world as long as they stop sinning, and abide in Christ, and believe into Christ, and have faith until the end. That which is born of God does all these because God is purposing that to happen in their lives. You can not simply live your life as you please, because the new creature seeks to please God. Fools believe you can make a hollow claim and go about life deliberately sinning. I am not a fool under this impression, rather one that believes in the truth of the gospel, a fool for Christ.

I do not see the glass half empty waiting for me to fill it to earn my salvation, Jesus did everything needed for a full cup of salvation.


I read this and found it interesting and relevant although I do not agree with the entire tract.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If I read between the lines, it seems that some would suggest that it takes more than faith to remain in His goodness. Not according to 1John5:4. This is that which overcomes the world...OUR FAITH! Will the "warn-ers" please acknowledge this revelation?

Faith is what brings us in and what sustains us. But what happens to those who lose the faith?

 

[williemac]

Faith is what brings us in and what sustains us. But what happens to those who lose the faith?

I do not use the term "lose". I would rather use the biblical one: "fall away". I would like to know how it is in your opinion that one actually loses faith. The most simple meaning of the word is "belief". Believe is a verb. The noun is called faith. Faith in terms of the gospel, is the acceptance of that which was accomplished on our behalf by Jesus. In the bible, faith in general means to take God at His word. There is an element of trust with faith.

If I may ramble a bit, I would like to mention that if a person does not want what God is offering or promising, then faith is rather pointless as it has no use in this person's interests. And I suppose that some Christians may well change their mind, though I suspect this is fairly rare. I would not call this 'losing faith'. I would call it a change or lost of interest.
But if one does want what he perceives is being offered by God, then faith is the means by which it is acquired. This would not be true if the condition is to earn or work for it. However, in Rom.8:32, in my version (NKJ), it talks of the things freely given by God. As well, in 1 Cor.2:12, we are told that the Holy Spirit is given to reveal to us the things freely given to us by God. Then, in Rom.5:15-18, Paul speaks of the free gift of life and of righteousness.

This is where faith comes in. God is offering things freely (by grace). The acceptance of this information is otherwise called believing it. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17). But if one is to accept it, one must first understand it. This is why in the parable of the sower, Jesus referred to they who hear the word and understand it, are those who bear fruit.

Here is where I (and others) usually intervene with what some are offering on various threads. It is obvious to me that what some are hearing and sharing, is that the things offered to us are not really what one can call free. To some, there is a catch. There is fine print. There are hurdles. If one has received a free gift from God and then proceeds to do what the Galatians did, by attempting to be justified for the gift through other means than faith, then they are fallen ( or close) from faith and grace. Where faith is concerned, this to me is the most common issue with the church, both today and in Paul's day. It is certainly common on this website. This is why I mentioned understanding. It seems that not everyone has the same understanding as to how we are to achieve that which is being offered by God.

So either way, whether one can lose faith or fall from it, or mix it with works, faith is certainly under attack in the the church and in the world. But this is also amounts to an attack on God's character. It goes back to the question that was asked of Eve..."did God really say?" His character was attacked when the serpent suggested that God was holding something back deliberately. Does the world hear from the church that life is a free gift? Does the church as a whole even believe it? Certainly not as a whole.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here is where I (and others) usually intervene with what some are offering on various threads. It is obvious to me that what some are hearing and sharing, is that the things offered to us are not really what one can call free. To some, there is a catch. There is fine print.

There are two catches. The first is 'come and get it', and the second is 'hold onto what you've received'. Those who fail in either point lose it.

It's not fine print, though, because it's plainly written in scripture.

 

[Raeneske]

I simply question if someone can thwart God's plan for sanctification in the life of the believer once He has started. (Philippians 1:6)


If Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity (1John 2:2), then what sin that I may commit will exclude me from salvation, excluding the whole "blaspheme the HolySpirt"?

How can anyone live up to God's holy standard? Lets keep in mind sins of omission, sins of pride, sins of vanity, impure thoughts, unwholesome words, and so on...

Where is the tipping point? Just when is salvation lost in the believer?

I believe that once we are created anew (2 Corinthians 5:17), sealed with the HolySpirit (Ephesians 4:30), we are protected (Psalms 121:7-8) by a jealous God (Exodus 34:14), that instills fear in our hearts so that we will not turn from Him. (Jeremiah 32:40) He changes our thinking pattern,(Romans 12:2) and moves us to good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

All of this is His doing and not our own! We have faith that El Elyon is a God that keeps His promises. (Daniel 9:4)

Please do not be fooled into thinking that hollow or empty confessions of faith are redemptive, (Matthew 7:21) or that a life of faith allows lawlessness. (Romans 6:1-2) These are not on the path of salvation.

I agree we need to cooperate in the sanctification process, and this is what all the exhorting and warning passages are about. (Romans 6:19) Yet does everyone progress in the same fashion? Are we to judge the timing of the progression?

Those who are not brought into salvation, were they ever going to be saved by God in the first place? Were they ever sealed with the HolySpirit? Remember God knows the end from the beginning, (Isaiah 46:10) thereby He knows all those who are saved by name. (John 10:3)

No one thwart's God's anything. If God will make it that way, it shall happen that way . What God DOESN'T do, is force the conscience. You can reject salvation, after you have started becoming changed. Why? Because some simply do not remain until the end. Does this mean they were never saved? No. They had the Holy Spirit, God gives it to people.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now realize what is being said here. They were once enlightened to the knowledge of Salvation, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they were PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST (I emphasize this part mostly), have tasted the good word of God, and the POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME. They became a part of everything that was salvation. They simply had it, and fell away. They fell by the wayside, and put Jesus Christ to an open shame because He WAS their Saviour.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now considering the other verse, we realize that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the Holy Ghost, etc., but if we willfully sin after we receive knowledge of the truth, we have no more sacrifice for sins. So if a Christian who was a Christian at first, receives knowledge of some pet sin, and they refuse to give it up, and then refuse to also give up many other sins, what does the word of God say about them? They have no more sacrifice for sins.

"Why would God give His holy spirit to those He knows would turn away" - So that they are WITHOUT excuse. No matter what, it will be completely their own fault. God was there for them, God helped them. God did everything He possibly could for them to be saved. They can only blame themselves for rashly denying the light, or withdrawing from the race that started when they first became saved.

 

[Polt]

I believe that this doctrine is the very catalyst of why Churches allow for same sex marriages, divorced an re-marriage, tolerance of unrepentant homosexual practices, false prophets and strange fire and I agree with....

You've heard of health-and-wealth preachers who tell their followers that God want them to be rich (first, they must contribute some seed money). Another kind of preacher tells his followers that Jesus is all love, compassion, and mercy. This Jesus isn't a "bigot" who hates immorality. This Jesus lets you live as you wish and still saves you. There's no standards or judgment from this Jesus (except, don't be a "bigot").


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven... I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Those workers of lawlessness are those who do those things you mention.

 

[Raeneske]

You've heard of health-and-wealth preachers who tell their followers that God want them to be rich (first, they must contribute some seed money). Another kind of preacher tells his followers that Jesus is all love, compassion, and mercy. This Jesus isn't a "bigot" who hates immorality. This Jesus lets you live as you wish and still saves you. There's no standards or judgment from this Jesus (except, don't be a "bigot").


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven... I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Those workers of lawlessness are those who do those things you mention.

:lol:

Enjoyed the first part of your post. "Don't be a 'bigot'".

 

[williemac]

There are two catches. The first is 'come and get it', and the second is 'hold onto what you've received'. Those who fail in either point lose it.

It's not fine print, though, because it's plainly written in scripture.

These are not the catches I was referring to. I certainly hope you see that. But these two that you mention are in the category of life which is attained through faith. I know some speak of losing faith, but this misses the mark. We gained life through the new birth. The more relevant question is not whether one can lose faith but whether one can lose eternal life. Therefore I would like to know if you or anyone else thinks a person can lose his eternal life and then get it back again.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The more relevant question is not whether one can lose faith but whether one can lose eternal life. Therefore I would like to know if you or anyone else thinks a person can lose his eternal life and then get it back again.

I really don't have an opinion on the matter, but the scriptures seem to indicate that is not possible.

 

[williemac]

No one thwart's God's anything. If God will make it that way, it shall happen that way . What God DOESN'T do, is force the conscience. You can reject salvation, after you have started becoming changed. Why? Because some simply do not remain until the end. Does this mean they were never saved? No. They had the Holy Spirit, God gives it to people.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now realize what is being said here. They were once enlightened to the knowledge of Salvation, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they were PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST (I emphasize this part mostly), have tasted the good word of God, and the POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME. They became a part of everything that was salvation. They simply had it, and fell away. They fell by the wayside, and put Jesus Christ to an open shame because He WAS their Saviour.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now considering the other verse, we realize that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the Holy Ghost, etc., but if we willfully sin after we receive knowledge of the truth, we have no more sacrifice for sins. So if a Christian who was a Christian at first, receives knowledge of some pet sin, and they refuse to give it up, and then refuse to also give up many other sins, what does the word of God say about them? They have no more sacrifice for sins.

"Why would God give His holy spirit to those He knows would turn away" - So that they are WITHOUT excuse. No matter what, it will be completely their own fault. God was there for them, God helped them. God did everything He possibly could for them to be saved. They can only blame themselves for rashly denying the light, or withdrawing from the race that started when they first became saved.

I must protest this analysis of Heb.10:26. It is ignorant of the context. In the following verses (28), the author compares it with those who rejected Moses' law. The context speaks plainly that the old sacrifices were abolished. Therefore they are no longer in place. So, those who have received the knowledge of the one sacrifice for sin and reject it, have no sacrifice at all for sin. I and others have explained Heb.10 over and over and it is as if it was never acknowledged or considered. Here is the last verse in Heb.10. " But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul". In fact, the very next verse is the beginning of the great commentary on faith in Heb.11.
The willful sin of 10:26 is, or includes, the rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus through unbelief. We do not have the license to contrive our own version of the definition of willful sin. It is a term used once in scripture by the author of Hebrews. In my humble opinion, t is completely disrespectful of this author to ignore his intention concerning the application of that term and make up one's own for one's own purposes. Excuse me, my dear brother, with all due respect, you did not write the letter to the Hebrews. You have no place making up your own application of willful sin. The underlying theme in the letter is faith. The intended application is in the case of unbelief or rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus. It is sinning without Christ, therefore without His offering for remission of sin.
In fact it is ludicrous to think or claim that the very thing that takes away sin can be overruled by sin. Do you not realize that your interpretation of Heb.10 is closer to unbelief than faith, as you are as much as saying that sin can overrule the sacrifice for sin? The author of Hebrews went to great pains to demonstrate how it is that the sacrifice of Jesus is vastly superior to the blood of bulls and goats. Do you disagree with his assessment? As I shared before, His sacrifice is placed upon the old man by proxy through faith. the old man is dead, crucified with Christ. How is it that it no longer is effective in the case of the dead man sinning? The only way is if one does what you shared in Heb.6. If one falls away from faith. But if this happens, it is permanent.

so if we put the two references together, according to your interpretation if a person is in willful sin, he is now lost forever. Are you really prepared to go there?

I really don't have an opinion on the matter, but the scriptures seem to indicate that is not possible.

It certainly appears that way.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If it helps the discussion in any way, the Greek word translated willfully seems to have a slightly different meaning. Willfully seems to imply purposeful intent.

Willfully
G1596 ἑκουσίως hekousios (hek-ou-see'-ose) adv.
1. willingly, voluntarily

This is the same adverb used in 1 Peter 5:2

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 1 Peter 5:2

This same word is used in the LXX version of 4 Maccabees 5:23

...but it teaches us self-control, so that we master all pleasures and desires, and it also trains us in courage, so that we endure any suffering willingly; 4 Mac 5:23

Perhaps this particular usage is applicable to the topic at hand in the sense that some (who believe into the saving of the soul) are willing to endure suffering and not deny the lord, whereas others (who draw back into perdition) are unwilling to endure suffering for Christ's sake, but are willing to deny him.

 

[Raeneske]

I must protest this analysis of Heb.10:26. It is ignorant of the context. In the following verses (28), the author compares it with those who rejected Moses' law. The context speaks plainly that the old sacrifices were abolished. Therefore they are no longer in place. So, those who have received the knowledge of the one sacrifice for sin and reject it, have no sacrifice at all for sin. I and others have explained Heb.10 over and over and it is as if it was never acknowledged or considered. Here is the last verse in Heb.10. " But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul". In fact, the very next verse is the beginning of the great commentary on faith in Heb.11.
The willful sin of 10:26 is, or includes, the rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus through unbelief. We do not have the license to contrive our own version of the definition of willful sin. It is a term used once in scripture by the author of Hebrews. In my humble opinion, t is completely disrespectful of this author to ignore his intention concerning the application of that term and make up one's own for one's own purposes. Excuse me, my dear brother, with all due respect, you did not write the letter to the Hebrews. You have no place making up your own application of willful sin. The underlying theme in the letter is faith. The intended application is in the case of unbelief or rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus. It is sinning without Christ, therefore without His offering for remission of sin.
In fact it is ludicrous to think or claim that the very thing that takes away sin can be overruled by sin. Do you not realize that your interpretation of Heb.10 is closer to unbelief than faith, as you are as much as saying that sin can overrule the sacrifice for sin? The author of Hebrews went to great pains to demonstrate how it is that the sacrifice of Jesus is vastly superior to the blood of bulls and goats. Do you disagree with his assessment? As I shared before, His sacrifice is placed upon the old man by proxy through faith. the old man is dead, crucified with Christ. How is it that it no longer is effective in the case of the dead man sinning? The only way is if one does what you shared in Heb.6. If one falls away from faith. But if this happens, it is permanent.

so if we put the two references together, according to your interpretation if a person is in willful sin, he is now lost forever. Are you really prepared to go there?


It certainly appears that way.

I highly disagree with what you're saying it means, how's that?

Now, I do not disagree that the fact that Jesus's sacrifice is much more worth than the blood of goats. And yes, those who receive the knowledge of that one sacrifice for sin, and reject it are lost. If they reject it, and never choose to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour throughout their life, then they have no sacrifice for sin.

But you speak as if the subject matter only speaks of those who never accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, when in fact it speaks of us, as well.

In verse 16 it speaks of the new covenant made, about the laws of God being put inside our hearts. This would be all who accept the free gift, yes? Yes. Then he says boldly in verse 22 to let US draw near to the Lord, with true faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We are to hold fast the profession without wavering. It is all who come to the knowledge of the truth, who must hold fast the profession without wavering. Then quite clearly, and boldly he says if we willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins. Yes, this refers to ALL who come to Christ. You are required to walk in obedience to Jesus Christ. You're right, I didn't write Hebrews. But I'm not wresting it from the meaning Scripture has given us.

Will I dare to say, that if a man is in willful sin, he is lost forever? Yes. But what I think, and what you think upon this subject are probably completely different. So, BEFORE preparing a reply, listen to me.

Those that willfully break the laws of God are called workers of iniquity. Those that willfully sin, those workers of iniquity, Jesus says depart from Him. Just like when Jesus spoke of those that call Him LORD in the end times. Yes, if you are in willful sin, you are in trouble. But let's not wrest that statement out of context of the Scriptures. The Scriptures have already declared that if any man sins, he can come to Jesus to forgive us of our sins. Paul has given us a slight picture when stating, I die daily, how often we sin, how me must learn to walk again when we become a Christian. The Scriptures also declare that God winks at our times of ignorance. If you are in sin ignorantly, it's not willful sin. Willful sin is disobeying the Creator, when you have full knowledge of the truth. It is not a fall, it is not a mistake, which you later repent of. It is willful sin, which you willfully and continually put yourself in a position to do. And when you continue to do that, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, you become Hebrews 10:26. When is that moment, I can never tell you. God knows every man's heart, He knows when to say, "Ephraim is joined to idols".

It is not ludicrous to think that you can be separated from God because you live in willful sin. Someone accepts the LORD Jesus Christ as Saviour. He becomes a partaker of the Holy Ghost. He then learns of a sin he doesn't want to give up. He fights God, and refuses to go farther in his walk. The love for this sin and others continues. He is trampling the Son of God underfoot, and he does not care. He says what the women say in Isaiah 4:1 "Let me be called by thy name, to take away our reproach." He wants to be called a Christian. He continues to do many wonderful works in the name of the LORD. But he refuses to obey. He loves his pet sin, more than the LORD. He loses the holy ghost. He becomes self deceived. He then has lost his sacrifice, because he continued in willful sin.

So, to the best of my understanding, nothing has been wrested out of context. I do not see Paul only referring to unbelief, but Paul referring to unbelievers and believers as well. I see Paul speaking of the believers receiving the laws of God within their hearts. I see Paul admonishing us to hold onto our profession. I see him admonishing us to abstain from willful sin. And what is the definition of sin? 1 John 3:4.

Whoever commits sin, transgresses God's law; for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I needed that Phillipians 1:6 today nice post.

 

[Guestman]

Jehovah is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, a vocalization of theTetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, which has also been transcribed as "Yehowah" or "Yahweh".
יְהֹוָה appears 6,518 times in the traditional Masoretic Text, in addition to 305 instances ofיֱהֹוִה (Jehovih). The earliest available Latin text to use a vocalization similar to Jehovahdates from the 13th century.
Most scholars believe "Jehovah" to be a late (ca. 1100 CE) hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai, but there is some evidence that it may already have been in use in Late Antiquity (5th century).The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of theredaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh... .

The most widely accepted pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is Yahweh, though Jehovah is used in many Bibles, but in few modern ones.


You know my father was a JW and he now takes his place amongst the dead of sheol and will reside forever in gehenna. So will you, if the LORD GOD doesn't open your eyes.

The names in most English Bibles are Latin for the original names. For example, of the name Jehovah (Latin), several names are composed of the 1st four letters Jeho, such as Jehoshaphat (meaning "Jehovah is Judge"), Jehoaddah (meaning "Jehovah Has Decked Himself "), Jehoaddin (meaning "Jehovah is Pleasure"), Jehoahaz (meaning "Jehovah Has Taken Hold "), Jehoiakim (meaning "Jehovah Raises Up"), to name a few of the some 20 names with Jeho. Even the name Jesus is Latin for Yeshua. The name Jehovah is in the Bible more times than the titles "Lord" and "God" combined.


At Malachi 3, the account says that after speaking correction to the nation of Israel, that "at that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him, for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name."(Mal. 3:16)


Jehovah further says of these ones, that "they will certainly become....at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him. And you people will again certainly see the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him."(Mal. 3; 17, 18) Hence, there is now a noted distinction between "a righteous one and a wicked one", those who serve Jehovah God and those who do not.

 

[williemac]

I highly disagree with what you're saying it means, how's that?

Now, I do not disagree that the fact that Jesus's sacrifice is much more worth than the blood of goats. And yes, those who receive the knowledge of that one sacrifice for sin, and reject it are lost. If they reject it, and never choose to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour throughout their life, then they have no sacrifice for sin.

But you speak as if the subject matter only speaks of those who never accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, when in fact it speaks of us, as well.

In verse 16 it speaks of the new covenant made, about the laws of God being put inside our hearts. This would be all who accept the free gift, yes? Yes. Then he says boldly in verse 22 to let US draw near to the Lord, with true faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We are to hold fast the profession without wavering. It is all who come to the knowledge of the truth, who must hold fast the profession without wavering. Then quite clearly, and boldly he says if we willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins. Yes, this refers to ALL who come to Christ. You are required to walk in obedience to Jesus Christ. You're right, I didn't write Hebrews. But I'm not wresting it from the meaning Scripture has given us.

Will I dare to say, that if a man is in willful sin, he is lost forever? Yes. But what I think, and what you think upon this subject are probably completely different. So, BEFORE preparing a reply, listen to me.

Those that willfully break the laws of God are called workers of iniquity. Those that willfully sin, those workers of iniquity, Jesus says depart from Him. Just like when Jesus spoke of those that call Him LORD in the end times. Yes, if you are in willful sin, you are in trouble. But let's not wrest that statement out of context of the Scriptures. The Scriptures have already declared that if any man sins, he can come to Jesus to forgive us of our sins. Paul has given us a slight picture when stating, I die daily, how often we sin, how me must learn to walk again when we become a Christian. The Scriptures also declare that God winks at our times of ignorance. If you are in sin ignorantly, it's not willful sin. Willful sin is disobeying the Creator, when you have full knowledge of the truth. It is not a fall, it is not a mistake, which you later repent of. It is willful sin, which you willfully and continually put yourself in a position to do. And when you continue to do that, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, you become Hebrews 10:26. When is that moment, I can never tell you. God knows every man's heart, He knows when to say, "Ephraim is joined to idols".

It is not ludicrous to think that you can be separated from God because you live in willful sin. Someone accepts the LORD Jesus Christ as Saviour. He becomes a partaker of the Holy Ghost. He then learns of a sin he doesn't want to give up. He fights God, and refuses to go farther in his walk. The love for this sin and others continues. He is trampling the Son of God underfoot, and he does not care. He says what the women say in Isaiah 4:1 "Let me be called by thy name, to take away our reproach." He wants to be called a Christian. He continues to do many wonderful works in the name of the LORD. But he refuses to obey. He loves his pet sin, more than the LORD. He loses the holy ghost. He becomes self deceived. He then has lost his sacrifice, because he continued in willful sin.

So, to the best of my understanding, nothing has been wrested out of context. I do not see Paul only referring to unbelief, but Paul referring to unbelievers and believers as well. I see Paul speaking of the believers receiving the laws of God within their hearts. I see Paul admonishing us to hold onto our profession. I see him admonishing us to abstain from willful sin. And what is the definition of sin? 1 John 3:4.

Whoever commits sin, transgresses God's law; for sin is the transgression of the law.

Thank you for your patience in explaining your understanding and interpretation. I can see that you believe Paul to be the author of Hebrews. We don't know that for sure. However, I still maintain that since the term "sin willfully" is found only this one time in scripture, then it is the author who should be telling us what that means. What I see instead is your own explanation of what it would mean if you had coined the term.
If you recall the promise of Jesus in John 5:24, He said..." he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death to life" If there was an exception to this called willful sin, don't you think He would have said so?

According to your opinion, a believer who is in willful sin will indeed come into judgment, even though he is a believer.

What you forget is that it is only the unbeliever that will be judged and called a worker of iniquity.

However, I would like to read to you Heb.10:18 .." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin."
It follows on the heels of the promise that "their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more"
So here, the author talks of remission of sin. Remission is removal. But what was it removed from? God's record. Therefore, as he states, there is no longer an offering for sin.
I appreciated your comments from the verses following this, but they were lacking context. You skipped from vs.16 to vs.22, leaving out the revelation that because of remission of sin, there is no longer an offering needed. This applies to all believers. The offering was done one time. It was accepted and therefore our sins are remitted.

However, if any future sin has no offering, there can only be two possibilities. One possibility is that there is no more sacrifice and therefore the sin will be held against us. The other is that the one sacrifice applies to all future sin as well. There can be no in between, as there is no longer a sacrifice for sin. All it would take for judgment, is one sin.

But back to the context and vs.39. We are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Perdition is waiting for those who are in willful sin. Why? Because it is being applied by the author to those Jews who are in unbelief and who's sins have not been remitted by the One offering. The blood of bulls and goats were temporary covering for sin.

Here is the beginning of his context in Heb.10:1....." For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect"
vs.2: " For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have no more consciousness of sins." vs.3. "But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year". vs.4.." For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" This point is repeated in vs.11.

So here is a point that we should consider. Either the One sacrifice took away our sins or it did not. Either it made us perfect or it did not. (vs.14...we are perfected forever). But did the author say that there would be no more sin? No, what he said was that there would be no more reminder of sin. There would be no more sin consciousness.

Do you want to know what can cause a Christian to walk in sin? Sin consciousness. What a man thinks in his heart, so is he. If he still thinks he is a sinner, then he is simply going to feel like a sinner trying to behave himself. This mindset is all that the law could ever produce. This is why Paul in Rom. 7 said that the law produces and stirs up the sinful passions and desires.
The most common reason that Christians fall into sin is poor teaching and false doctrine, causing them to not understand who they are and what they have become by way of the new birth. Oh, they may hear it. But more often than not it is mixed at some point with leaven, some teaching that contradicts or nullifies.
False teaching or leaven can take away or hinder a person's joy and peace, causing them to feel lack and unfulfillment. Where do they go to get these? Some will fall back into old familiar territory. The reason people sin in the first place. Because they crave some sense of life that is missing.
What they rather need is the confidence to draw near to God instead for this. But sin consciousness can and will hinder this confidence. Who is to blame for this? A reminder that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood.
Do you think for a moment that God is about to judge or blame one of His own who has been duped, deceived, or misinformed?