The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

Repentance is a U-turn that God causes at salvation. However, Heb 6:4-6 affirms it can become unrepentance through apostasy, and that repentance cannot be renewed.

God is contradicting himself here...

Heb 6:6 NIV and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:26 NIV If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

 

[H. Richard]

Thank you Richard. It's an honor to speak with you. It's a blessing to come across OSAS believers.

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

- ATP

Thank you> It is an honor to meet you too. It is very seldom that those with faith in the work of Jesus on the cross get to post on the Christian forums today..

 

[ATP]

Thank you> It is an honor to meet you too. It is very seldom that those with faith in the work of Jesus on the cross get to post on the Christian forums today..

This is very true. Most Christian forums will shut down the thread if OSAS or soul sleep is even whispered of.

 

[FHII]

John Calvin, in writing on predestination, stated: 'Augustine is so completely of our persuasion, that if I should have to make written profession, it would be quite enough to present a composition made up entirely of excerpts from his writings' (in 'Augustine on Sin and the Will', tbakerhill, 25 December 2012).

HOWEVER, what did Augustine believe?

Augustine of Hippo wrote a treatise 'On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II' in which he stated:


It seems that Calvin was misinformed by this one as Augustine wrote here of someone who could 'fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer'. He 'was believing ... but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was'.

Hello, Mr Calvin, Augustine does not believe as you do with predestination (and OSAS).

Oz

Yea... Can't find that quote from Calvin.... In any sense, thank you for making my point. If you knew what Calvin taught on say, Hebrews 6:4-6, for example.... You wouldn't have written this. I am becoming more and more convinced that many on this board who don't agree with predestination and OSAS have made up their own definitions of what they are FOR the purpose of being able to attack them. Cause they aren't getting it from anyone here, John Calvin or the Bible.

 

[ladodgers6]

Excellent post my friend.And I would like to add,that always looking to Christ for our redemption.Christ is OUR righteousness and we are saved through HIS works not ours.Even the works of believers DO NOT SAVE US,only the perfect flawless works of our Covenant King;Our Eschatological Adam who fulfilled the broken Covenant of works through his perfect obedience that merited justification from God; which is imputed to us through Faith.

 

[ATP]

Yea... Can't find that quote from Calvin.... In any sense, thank you for making my point. If you knew what Calvin taught on say, Hebrews 6:4-6,

God is contradicting himself here...

Heb 6:6 NIV and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:26 NIV If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Excellent post my friend.And I would like to add,that always looking to Christ for our redemption.Christ is OUR righteousness and we are saved through HIS works not ours.Even the works of believers DO NOT SAVE US,only the perfect flawless works of our Covenant King;Our Eschatological Adam who fulfilled the broken Covenant of works through his perfect obedience that merited justification from God; which is imputed to us through Faith.

Amen.

 

[StanJ]

It may be my response to your post was from a different understanding that you were attempting to convey.

Let me present my contention to you first so we may dialogue from a clear understanding.

Perhaps the greatest issue I have is the loose use of the definition of salvation. Clearly from previous posts we see some who use the definition of atonement to explain salvation. This clearly is false. We must know what salvation is before we can make any logical arguments about it.

Then we have the idea of salvation being something that can be gained then lost. Here I sorely disagree.

With salvation being presented as a past, present, and future event, how can someone claim to have anything they are yet to obtain?

Let's start our discussion here please.

No problem, I find it best to be UNequivocal when discussing anything.

The one issue I do find with many who do support OSAS, is that they equivocate about apostasy and what Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:38-39 convey, along with many other scriptures convey. Apostasy is NOT losing salvation, it is walking away from it just as we walk into it. Again the whole issue does NOT stand on it's own, but is influenced and connected by T.U.L.I.P.

Salvation is a one time event but it has present and future implications. Sin also have present and future implications, as the Bible states; "reap what you sow".
Christians who do not think they will reap bad repercussions from sin are naïve to say the least.
Understanding what the scriptures convey requires reading them IN context and NOT from a doctrinal perspective. Exegesis vs Eisegesis.

How's that?

 

[mjrhealth]

The problem is this topic isnt about salvation it is all about unbelief,

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

There are more on here finding reason why God cant save you than who actually believe He can, and far more seem to somehow believe He cant save them without their help. So sad, that so few believe in the power of God unto salvation,

This part

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

But you dont believe God,

How does it go, " Grace by Faith",

When I return will I find Faith upon the earth,????

In all His Love

 

[justaname]

No problem, I find it best to be UNequivocal when discussing anything.

The one issue I do find with many who do support OSAS, is that they equivocate about apostasy and what Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:38-39 convey, along with many other scriptures convey. Apostasy is NOT losing salvation, it is walking away from it just as we walk into it. Again the whole issue does NOT stand on it's own, but is influenced and connected by T.U.L.I.P.

Salvation is a one time event but it has present and future implications. Sin also have present and future implications, as the Bible states; "reap what you sow".
Christians who do not think they will reap bad repercussions from sin are naïve to say the least.
Understanding what the scriptures convey requires reading them IN context and NOT from a doctrinal perspective. Exegesis vs Eisegesis.

How's that?

Well Stan you said it succinctly. Truly the entire T.U.L.I.P. concept has blurred the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.

I agree we walk into salvation. I would add we all walk into it through God's sovereign call. I know some refuse to respond effectively to the call and thereby walk away. I also know some embrace the call yet fall away or are choked out to use the language from the four soils parable.

I completely agree with your idea concerning sin.
I completely agree with your interpretation method.

Now then I have another question so as to be able to better understand your position. I want to clarify the term I use so as to be clear with my question.

The Bible speaks of a transformative condition that happens to the believer. This is spoken of as being born again. The believer is indwelled and sealed with the Holy Spirit. God writes His laws on the believer's heart and instills His fear. This person has passed from death into life not to enter judgment. These were chosen from the foundations of the world predestined to be conformed into Christ's image according to His purpose and His will.

Does this born again believer walk away? (Please note I did not ask "can" rather "does".)

Please consider this portion of Scripture before you answer...

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

[ATP]

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[ATP]

The problem is this topic isnt about salvation it is all about unbelief,

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

There are more on here finding reason why God cant save you than who actually believe He can, and far more seem to somehow believe He cant save them without their help. So sad, that so few believe in the power of God unto salvation,

This part

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

But you dont believe God,

How does it go, " Grace by Faith",

When I return will I find Faith upon the earth,????

In all His Love

That's right mjr....

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[StanJ]

I would add we all walk into it through God's sovereign call. I know some refuse to respond effectively to the call and thereby walk away. I also know some embrace the call yet fall away or are choked out to use the language from the four soils parable.

I want to clarify the term I use so as to be clear with my question.
The Bible speaks of a transformative condition that happens to the believer. This is spoken of as being born again. The believer is indwelled and sealed with the Holy Spirit. God writes His laws on the believer's heart and instills His fear. This person has passed from death into life not to enter judgment. These were chosen from the foundations of the world predestined to be conformed into Christ's image according to His purpose and His will.
Does this born again believer walk away? (Please note I did not ask "can" rather "does".)

Please consider this portion of Scripture before you answer...

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 8:28-30 shows we are called AFTER we are saved, so I can't agree with this POV here. You do seem to understand Luke 8:11-15.

I don't agree with your premise here so I obviously can't answer your question. Born again, IS salvation. Salvation comes by responding to God's drawing us to Jesus and accepting the truth of who He is and was intended to be. A believer is ONLY indwelled by the Holy Spirit WHEN He receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This can happen simultaneously to salvation, but always subsequent to it as a separate experience. Acts 19:1-7. The Holy Spirit, who Jesus instructed the Apostles to wait for, is who we also wait for after conversion, and He indwells us with the power and fire spoken of by John the Baptist in Matt 3:11. No one was chosen before the foundations of the world, God's plan existed before the foundations of the world. I know there are a few verses here that are distorted to arrive at this erroneous conclusion so feel free to cite them so we can deal with them.

Heb 6:4-6 and 10:38-39 shows that people CAN and DO walk away. It's not about losing ones salvation, but about choosing to not continue in the commitment once made to do so.

God does what He does out of foreknowledge, NOT foreordination. Those who want God to justify what He does, are often reminded He needs no justification, but that doesn't mean He does things without reason or purpose. ALL men reap what they sow.

 

[ATP]

Most people take Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-39 out of context, every day all day.

 

[ladodgers6]

God is contradicting himself here...

Heb 6:6 NIV and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:26 NIV If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,


Amen.

These passages speak of God's Covenant of Grace.

 

[ATP]

These passages speak of God's Covenant of Grace.

If Jesus paid the sin penalty but there's no sacrifice for sins left, how can that be?

 

[ladodgers6]

Well, the problem I have with people who do not understand that Christ secured salvation at the cross. Fail to see what Christ actually accomplished. Our repentance is not our ground of justification. Our works as believers do NOT SAVE US. Its the works of Christ that saves us. Graeme Goldworthy once wrote, that even as Christians we need the Gospel everyday. And not to focus on our works as Paul wrote in Galatians 6. In other words do not focus on works but Christ. Because God justifies the ungodly not the righteous!

 

[ATP]

Well, the problem I have with people who do not understand that Christ secured salvation at the cross. Fail to see what Christ actually accomplished. Our repentance is not our ground of justification. Our works as believers do NOT SAVE US. Its the works of Christ that saves us. Graeme Goldworthy once wrote, that even as Christians we need the Gospel everyday. And not to focus on our works as Paul wrote in Galatians 6. In other words do not focus on works but Christ. Because God justifies the ungodly not the righteous!

So you believe one cannot lose their salvation, ever.

 

[mjrhealth]

So you believe one cannot lose their salvation, ever.

Jesus will never turn His back on anyone, that by no means will stop one from rejecting Him.

2Ti_2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Once we receive Him the only way he will leave is for us to cast Him out, Reject Him.

Unbeleif is todays greatest sin, and is what keeps men seperated from God.

In all His Love

 

[ladodgers6]

Good question. No I do not believe that someone whom the Father gave to the Son to save, will be lost. Meaning they can back slide, they can sin, they can even deny Christ three times. But this is precisely what Christ redeemed us from. Romans 7 depicts a believer struggling with his sin. This believer is Paul. For the things I want to do, I do not. And the things that I do not want to do, I do. Because where we are faithless, God is faithful. We will struggle with sin, because now that we are new creations, born of the Spirit. We will face a raging war; the flesh vs the Spirit. So we fight the good fight. We perform good works because they are the fruits of our justification in Christ through faith. To say that we can lose our salvation is to say that we have the power to undo what Christ accomplished on the Christ, correct? A person can back slide or even deny Christ, but Christ has found them and redeemed them through what he has rendered to the Father, which is prefect obedience to earn Justification and is imputed to us through faith. So what Christ has done, cannot be undone, because then Christ did not accomplished anything. So ultimately its up to us to complete what Christ could not???

 

[ladodgers6]

That's why God made a promise to Abraham, correct?? What is that promise???