The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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epostle

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To compliment what you've said.

Kecharitomene doesn't mean full of grace;


I have yet to see a reputable lexicon that defines charitoo as 'full of grace.' And even if it did it still doesn't mean sinless.

Also 2 Cor 9:8 says that we christians have all grace...

2 Cor 9:8
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
NASB

So catholics can argue (unsuccessfully) that mary is full of grace but we have all grace.
So you are saying that Mary is not full of grace but individual believers are. Your anti-Mary animus is anti-Biblical.
Highly favoured (κεχαριτωμενη). Perfect passive participle of χαριτοω and means endowed with grace (χαρις), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow"' (Plummer)

It is logically IMPOSSIBLE for Mary to bestow grace from just herself. Grace can only be received from Christ in the first place, contrary to the chronic misrepresentations of anti-biblical Mary bashers.
Kecharitomene does not apply to each individual believer. That is a man made tradition. It does not appear in 2 Cor 9:8. Steven was "full of grace" too, but even there, it does not mean Kecharitomene. You are blind to your own quote, written by the great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, who is not wrong, you are forcing it to fit your anti-Biblical, anti-Mary paradigm.

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

So A. T. Robertson must be re-interpreted to say what he doesn't say. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent is wrong, Vine is wrong, Wycliffe and Tyndale are wrong, James White is wrong, and so is Luther and Calvin wrong, according to the Christian Taliban, the chaotic "theologians" that infect this forum.

We can't even appeal to your own scholars who write your Bible study manuals, thanks to the man made Protestant principle of Private Judgement, and the endless chaos that follows.
 
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Nondenom40

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So you are saying that Mary is not full of grace but individual believers are. Your anti-Mary animus is anti-Biblical.
Highly favoured (κεχαριτωμενη). Perfect passive participle of χαριτοω and means endowed with grace (χαρις), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow"' (Plummer)
Kecharitomene does not apply to each individual believer. That is a man made tradition. It does not appear in 2 Cor 9:8. Steven was "full of grace" too, but even there, it does not mean Kecharitomene. You are blind to your own quote, written by the great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, who is not wrong, you are forcing it to fit your anti-Biblical, anti-Mary paradigm.

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

So A. T. Robertson must be re-interpreted to say what he doesn't say. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent is wrong, Vine is wrong, Wycliffe and Tyndale are wrong, James White is wrong, and so is Luther and Calvin wrong, according to the Christian Taliban, the chaotic "theologians" that infect this forum.

We can't even appeal to your own scholars who write your Bible study manuals, thanks to the man made Protestant principle of Private Judgement.
Youre barking up the wrong tree. I've never denied kecharitomene has grace in it. Grace by definition is unmerited favor. Mary was favored or highly favored in Luke 1:28. The word charitoo however does not now and has never meant 'full of grace'. Your own quote says as much. Stephen was full of grace and as you said, the word is not kecharitomene. Kecharitomene doesn't mean full of grace. I don't know how many times that has to be said. Neither highly favored, graced, endowed with grace, pursued by grace....pick your grace but none of them mean sinless. Which is where the rcc is going with all this. You destroyed your own argument.

And show me where i said mary isn't full of grace but individual believers are. Show me those words. What i said is believers have ALL grace per 2 Cor 9:8. If youre going to quote me, do it right.
 

reformed1689

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To compliment what you've said.

Kecharitomene doesn't mean full of grace;


I have yet to see a reputable lexicon that defines charitoo as 'full of grace.' And even if it did it still doesn't mean sinless.

Also 2 Cor 9:8 says that we christians have all grace...

2 Cor 9:8
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
NASB

So catholics can argue (unsuccessfully) that mary is full of grace but we have all grace.
All it means is she was chosen to receive a special blessing. It in no way, even trying to stretch the definition of the word, means sinless. That's just stupid.
 

Philip James

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All it means is she was chosen to receive a special blessing. It in no way, even trying to stretch the definition of the word, means sinless. That's just stupid.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 

Philip James

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That still doesn't change the fact that Scripture does NOT say, in any way, that Mary was sinless.

If you had the power to create your own mother, would you preserve her from the enemy?

Would you stand as her accuser before her son? Do you think that would please HIM?

Consider the care and handling (no one may touch it lest they die) of the ark of the old covenant which carried the word writ in stone...
Of how much more care would God have for the ark which carried the Word made flesh...

Peace be with you!
 

Nondenom40

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For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Good verse. Catholics should memorize it and apply it to their flawed theology. Jesus is repeatedly said to be without sin, sinless...very clear, no ambiguity. Where are the equally clear verses regarding marys sin free life? Nowhere thats where. Shoehorning a definition into a word isn't of God but very fallible humans with mary on the brain.
 

Nondenom40

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If you had the power to create your own mother, would you preserve her from the enemy?

Would you stand as her accuser before her son? Do you think that would please HIM?

Consider the care and handling (no one may touch it lest they die) of the ark of the old covenant which carried the word writ in stone...
Of how much more care would God have for the ark which carried the Word made flesh...

Peace be with you!
This is an appeal to emotion, not scripture. God didn't spare His own Son whom He had been with in eternity past. Mary has a higher place than that? Doubtful. And people certainly touched mary so your analogy goes exactly nowhere.
 

Philip James

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This is an appeal to emotion, not scripture. God didn't spare His own Son whom He had been with in eternity past. Mary has a higher place than that? Doubtful. And people certainly touched mary so your analogy goes exactly nowhere.

Who is giving Mary a higher place than Jesus?

She is the Queen mother because HE is the King.

Everything she is flows from who HE is..

Peace be with you!
 

Taken

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To compliment what you've said.

Kecharitomene doesn't mean full of grace;


I have yet to see a reputable lexicon that defines charitoo as 'full of grace.' And even if it did it still doesn't mean sinless.

Also 2 Cor 9:8 says that we christians have all grace...

2 Cor 9:8
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
NASB

So catholics can argue (unsuccessfully) that mary is full of grace but we have all grace.

Good Morning ~ Hope you had a very pleasant Thanksgiving Day.

I have no doubt Mary was highly favored, and chosen for a "particular" service unto the Lord God, a service that was "applicable" to her "only".

As well I have no doubt "others" were highly favored, beloved, and chosen for "particular" services unto the Lord God, "services" that were "applicable" to them "only".

We find in Scripture that the Lord God Himself, "find" grace "in His eyes", regarding particular people. It always hinges on, "God seeing a "faithful" person.
Thereafter, it is the Lord Gods gift of "Grace" He bestows "upon" people.

Gen 6:
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

John 1:
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

We all receive notice of "services" the "faithful" can do. It may not be "a one-time particular service to one person only", but rather "particular services" that is "specific" to the faithful "only".

I have no doubt; ie (faithful are the godly) and:
Noah was "faithful",
Mary was "faithful",
Abraham was "faithful',
Isaac was "faithful",
Jacob was "faithful",
Job was "faithful",
Ruth was "faithful",
David was "faithful",
Etc.
And the Apostles were "faithful",
And men today are "faithful"...
All receiving Grace "for" grace.

And AGREE ~ having grace in God; receiving Grace from God; Does not mean "sinless";
Does not mean "having been naturally born "sinless".

Every human naturally born person IS born:
Without knowledge, love, wisdom, understanding Of the Lord God.

They thus, Stand Against the Lord God.

Because there Are; "only" two Standings...
With or Against.

Matt 12
[30] He that is not with me is against me;

People "have" a beginning.
Their beginning "IS" Against the Lord God.
"Hearing" IS their Beginning to Learn About Him.
"Hearing, and believing, and Continuing, on the SAME directional path, IS HOW, the Lord God "SEES" grace In a person, and WHY the Lord God begins "gifting" His Grace forward to the person.

The directional Path so Continued; is HOW a natural born person, CAN "be Gifted with"...

1) Forgiveness of his sins.
2) Have his sins covered.
3) Become a "creature", bodily raised up "in Glory", WITHOUT sin.

Thus, Agree, No earthly person is "naturally" born, "WITHOUT" Sin.

And According to Scripture, there IS a Timeframe, for the Beginning of the Lord God to Raise up "bodies" in Glory, and to Raise up "bodies" in Damnination...not Yet come into fruition.

Earth from the beginning was Established as the "Habitat" for mankind. I find no evidence of the "Habitat" for mankind to have changed.

I find no evidence of Bodies of men having. Already Been Raised in Glory.

I do find evidence of saved souls and quickened spirits OUT OF (bodies of men) having been Raised Up to the Heavens, (being sustained in Life ) with the Tree of Life, waiting for the Resurrection and Glorification of their Bodies.

Catholics Today Teaching, Mary WAS without Original Sin of a natural born Person...
IMO is a Corrupt Expansion of what was the early INTENDED teaching.

INTENDED teaching came from Jesus, forward to the Disciples/Apostles, and followers...

In that Natural born persons, Could RECEIVE, the Forgiveness of "Original" sin, the Cleansing of "Original" sin, the Covering of "Original" sin...during their natural life-time; and in the Future Be raised in a "glorious" body, without Sin.

Mary, naturally born "without Sin"? No. Not a Scriptural teaching. Something counjoured up in the Minds of men; (primarily Gentiles) who "took over" (as Bishops and other leaders with expanded Titles, calling their own constructed churches, Catholic, and their members, Catholic) the first Churches established by Jews.

And the expansion of dictation, the Church "leaders", declaring their own Doctrine. (And why a Catholic will "argue with their Catholic Doctrine, against Scriptural Doctrine".

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Nondenom40

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Who is giving Mary a higher place than Jesus?

She is the Queen mother because HE is the King.

Everything she is flows from who HE is..

Peace be with you!
I'm sure we've been through this here as well as on other boards. Nowhere is mary called queen. Again this is an appeal to emotion as its found nowhere in Gods written word.
 

Nondenom40

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Neither did HE spare Mary. Do you not think she suffered with her son?
She suffered as a mother watching her child die on a cross. She didn't suffer as co-redeemer or co-mediator or any other 'co' catholics can conjure up.

Do you think Jesus said 'behold your mother' to John only?

Peace be with you!
Yes, because thats exactly what the text says.

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her into his own household.NASB

So to be consistent if you think mary is given as 'mother' to the entire church, you must believe Jesus gave John as a son to the entire church. Yet i've never heard that in any catholic thread, why not? Also if you think this verse applies to you regarding mary as your mother then did you also take her home with you? The text says 'then to THE disciple....'

1 Peter 3:6
6 Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
NASB

Now if you have an equally clear verse for mary being your mother i'd be happy to see it. Got that verse?
 
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reformed1689

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If you had the power to create your own mother, would you preserve her from the enemy?

Would you stand as her accuser before her son? Do you think that would please HIM?

Consider the care and handling (no one may touch it lest they die) of the ark of the old covenant which carried the word writ in stone...
Of how much more care would God have for the ark which carried the Word made flesh...

Peace be with you!
None of your "what if's" have any grounding in Scripture.
 

Taken

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Lol but then goes off about liturgical rites when I call it the RCC.

There WAS A Catholic Break of Communion, between (what today is called the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Church.)'
The [Formal] Break being called The East-West schism of 1054; although the "breaking off" from the Roman Catholic Church, "began" centuries earlier.

The Break was over theological, doctrinal, linguistic, political and ecclesiastical differences.

A compromise was settled in the 11th century.

Churches Dioceses were given "rites", to establish their own doctrines, liturgy, etc...
While Keeping in Agreement, the Pope being the Center of the Church as Head of the Catholic Church.

While BOL likes to brag about ONE unfettered, unified, unsplintered historical Catholic Church...There was a Split, and the coming back together, was with Conditions that Keeps them Separate, while all still calling themselves One. And there is continual ongoing beefs between the two Churches, even some member's regarding the others as heretics.

BOL likes to brag about the Catholic Church being historically ancient and always in Agreement...particularly when he is bashing Protestant Chruches with their own Sects of private Doctrines....Not much different than what the West Catholic Church did, and has to this day. Pot calling the Kettle black.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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This is not true. You won't accept anything that doesn't come from the Catholic Church.
It's because you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
I've come to the conclusion that you simply don't have any - otherwise, you would be more than willing top share the Good News . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Bread of life. Not a loaf of bread. Or a wafer. And since when is there 504 verses in John 6? How about read the first 50 verses then get back to me.
Jesus also said to gouge out your eye or cut off your hand. Why do you doubt what the Lord said?
Actually - that's NOT what He said.
He said you you would be better off cuting off yuour have or gouging out your eye IF that's what was causing you to skin.
difference.

As for the first part of your response - Paul, writing under the inspiration og the Holy Spirit disagrees with you . . .
1 Cor. 10:16-17
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

In 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those - like YOU who take this lightly:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a "symbol".
 

BreadOfLife

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I've looked at many lexicons and none of them define it the way you do.
Ummmmm, it wasn't ME who defined it - but linguists who are FAR more qualified and educated than myself.
No, my point is not moot, you just don't want to deal with it and you are just annoyed that I call it the RCC to distinguish it from the catholic church.
No - it's just that you are calling Melkite Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Alexandrian Catholics and about 15 other Liturgical Rites "Roman" - which is a real beginner's blunder.
No it doesn't. Nothing you have shown actually does that.
That's because you walk around with anti-Catholic blinders on.
The Scriptures are CRYSTAL CLEAR on this point not only does Christ's CHURCH have Supreme Earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) - but that Christ and His Church are INDIVISIBLE (Acts 9:4-5, 1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23).

YOUR refusal to accept this is a refusal to accept Christ Himself (Luke 10:16).
 
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