The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

LOL ~ That is a Lie!

Kecharitomene;
Full of Grace

So? That has been addressed. No one disagreed that Mary was full of grace.

Then you "attempt" to DEFINE "Full of Grace", by claiming it means: Naturally Born Sinless.

That is a Lie; and would make Scripture a lie.

Then you "attempt" to paraphrase Kecharitomene, to enforce, the "past tense" meaning of Kecharitomene;
As Completly full of grace.
As Perfectly full of grace.
As Enduringly full of grace.
As Endowed fully with grace.

So? No one has disagreed that Mary "WAS" given Gods "FULL" Gift of Grace BY God, and it was a Complete, Perfect, Endowed Gift from God Given By God Enduringly TO Mary.

Your teaching, IS dictating, "when" Mary Received, this Full Gift of Grace From God, as you claim it was at the time of "Mary's own natural birth".

Where IS your Scriptural Verification, of "when" Mary received this Full Gift of Grace From God?

Glory to God,
Taken

Ummmmm, talk about "beating around the bush" . . .

If you can't deal with Mary's title of "Kecharitomene" -= then you can't have an intelligent conversation about it.
I have given you the definition about TWENTY times now and you keep dodging it. Deal with it and get back to me . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

A Concise manner is quite acceptable, but useless, when:
The post is directed TO a person who does not comprehend simple words, or display comprehension of Historical Facts.
Awe...your deflection is noted.
Don't forget, the word "LIKENESS"!!
God did not "create" little human men gods.
God created "the first man kind of thing" in the LIKENESS of God. Read the Scriptural Truth.
Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
You should have discovered Gods LIKENESS, is His Absolute Truth, (without conflict of thought or belief).
You should have discovered, the first man, Deflected from Gods LIKENESS, Gods Absolute Truth, (and had Conflict of belief, contrary to God).
You should have discovered, LIKENESS, is a similarity. A man can "BECOME" LIKE God, while NOT Becoming God Himself.
You should have discovered, God can "APPEAR" in the "LIKENESS" as a "human" man, while NOT Becoming a "human" man.
When you exhibit your LACK of elementary understanding of what words mean...I treat you like a student with elementary understanding and write you in explicit elementary detailed posts.
You SWING a one way door, preaching God has BECOME and IS a HUMAN....but hold your tongue to claim man Becomes God.

You being a "cradle Catholic", you were likely taught from a young age, that God BECAME a "human" man....and obviously Never bothered to take it upon yourself to READ Gods Truth, instead of your Catholic church's "truth".

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;
Repeating your Catholic taught truth over and over, does not supercede the REAL TRUTH, Gods Truth...

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

You can repeat, repeat, repeat over and over and over your Catholic Doctrine.... However, your words will fade away, and Gods Word will stand forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

And what this ALL boils down to once again is that Jesus was a MAN - and God.
And, YOU haven't been able to show me - from Scripture - that there are "different kinds" of men other than HUMAN.

You can blather on with your verbose, psychotic rants - but in the end, you haven't shown this because you CAN'T.
Funny how all of your non-Catholic friends here have ABANDONED you on this point. I wonder why . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Ummmmm, it wasn't ME who defined it - but linguists who are FAR more qualified and educated than myself.

And MANY other linguists, far more educated than you are I say that is NOT the definition. Not to mention, even your definition doesn't say sinless.

No - it's just that you are calling Melkite Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Alexandrian Catholics and about 15 other Liturgical Rites "Roman" - which is a real beginner's blunder.

Yeah, the real blunder is that you use this as a Red Herring argument to distract from the real issue. The reality is all of those are in full communion with the Roman Pontiff, meaning they do not disagree with Rome and therefore deserve and are rightfully lumped together.

That's because you walk around with anti-Catholic blinders on.

Could it be that you walk with Catholic Blinders?

 

[BreadOfLife]

And MANY other linguists, far more educated than you are I say that is NOT the definition. Not to mention, even your definition doesn't say sinless.

Really?? show me ONE.
Show me ONE of your sources that says Kechritomenes does NOT mean "completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace".
Show me where they reject this definition.

I can pull out 3 different dictionaries for the SAME word and you will get differently-nuanced definitions in each one. That doesn't mean that one "rejects" the other.

As I told you before - this isn't MY definition - but one of linguistic scholarship.

Yeah, the real blunder is that you use this as a Red Herring argument to distract from the real issue. The reality is all of those are in full communion with the Roman Pontiff, meaning they do not disagree with Rome and therefore deserve and are rightfully lumped together.

Sooooo - if ALL of the countries in the United Nations agree on something - that means thay are ALL the same country??
What an asinine attempt to generalize 20 different Liturgical Rites with the same label.

Could it be that you walk with Catholic Blinders?

Not at all because, at the very LEAST - I have supported MY position with Scripture, history and linguistic eidence,
All YOU have done is to refuse to present any . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Really?? show me ONE.
Show me ONE of your sources that says Kechritomenes does NOT mean "completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace".
Show me where they reject this definition.

I can pull out 3 different dictionaries for the SAME word and you will get differently-nuanced definitions in each one. That doesn't mean that one "rejects" the other.

As I told you before - this isn't MY definition - but one of linguistic scholarship.

χαριτόω (χάρις)
1 aor. ἐχαρίτωσα;
• pf. pass. ptc. κεχαριτωμένος (Sir 18:17; Ps 17:26 Sym.; EpArist 225; TestJos 1:6; BGU 1026, XXIII, 24 [IV A.D.]; Cat. Cod. Astr. XII 162, 14; Rhet. Gr. I 429, 31; Achmes 2, 18) to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless, in our lit. only w. ref. to the divine χάρις (but Did., Gen. 162, 8 of Noah διὰ τῶν τῆς ἀρετῆς ἔργων χαριτώσας ἑαυτόν):
• ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίτωσεν αὐτοὺς ἐν πάσῃ πράξει αὐτῶν Hs 9, 24, 3.
• τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ (=τοῦ θεοῦ), ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ God’s great favor, with which he favored us through his beloved (Son) Eph 1:6.
• Pass. (Libanius, Progymn. 12, 30, 12 vol. VIII p. 544, 10 F. χαριτούμενος=favored; cp. Geminus [I B.C.], Elem. Astronomiae [Manitius 1898] 8, 9 κεχαρισμένον εἶναι τοῖς θεοῖς) in the angel’s greeting to Mary κεχαριτωμένη one who has been favored (by God) Lk 1:28 (SLyonnet, Biblica 20, ’39, 131–41; MCambe, RB 70, ’63, 193–207; JNolland, Luke’s Use of χάρις: NTS 32, ’86, 614–20);
• GJs 11:1.


William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 1081.

Note note of the above says sinless.


88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος f: to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28; ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ‘which he has graciously shown us in the one he loves’ Eph 1:6. V 1, p 749 χάριςa: ἐξῆλθεν παραδοθεὶς τῇ χάριτι τοῦ κυρίου ὑπὸ τῶν ἀδελφῶν ‘he left, being commended by the brothers to the kindness of the Lord’ Ac 15:40.


Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 748–749.

Note it doesn't say sinless.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

Again, nothing about sinless.

Sooooo - if ALL of the countries in the United Nations agree on something - that means thay are ALL the same country??

No, but they are all a part of one organization, the same organization the United Nations.

Not at all because, at the very LEAST - I have supported MY position with Scripture, history and linguistic eidence,
All YOU have done is to refuse to present any . . .

Which of course is a bold faced lie.

 

[BreadOfLife]

χαριτόω (χάρις)
1 aor. ἐχαρίτωσα;
• pf. pass. ptc. κεχαριτωμένος (Sir 18:17; Ps 17:26 Sym.; EpArist 225; TestJos 1:6; BGU 1026, XXIII, 24 [IV A.D.]; Cat. Cod. Astr. XII 162, 14; Rhet. Gr. I 429, 31; Achmes 2, 18) to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless, in our lit. only w. ref. to the divine χάρις (but Did., Gen. 162, 8 of Noah διὰ τῶν τῆς ἀρετῆς ἔργων χαριτώσας ἑαυτόν):
• ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίτωσεν αὐτοὺς ἐν πάσῃ πράξει αὐτῶν Hs 9, 24, 3.
• τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ (=τοῦ θεοῦ), ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ God’s great favor, with which he favored us through his beloved (Son) Eph 1:6.
• Pass. (Libanius, Progymn. 12, 30, 12 vol. VIII p. 544, 10 F. χαριτούμενος=favored; cp. Geminus [I B.C.], Elem. Astronomiae [Manitius 1898] 8, 9 κεχαρισμένον εἶναι τοῖς θεοῖς) in the angel’s greeting to Mary κεχαριτωμένη one who has been favored (by God) Lk 1:28 (SLyonnet, Biblica 20, ’39, 131–41; MCambe, RB 70, ’63, 193–207; JNolland, Luke’s Use of χάρις: NTS 32, ’86, 614–20);
• GJs 11:1.

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 1081.

Note note of the above says sinless.

88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος f: to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28; ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ‘which he has graciously shown us in the one he loves’ Eph 1:6. V 1, p 749 χάριςa: ἐξῆλθεν παραδοθεὶς τῇ χάριτι τοῦ κυρίου ὑπὸ τῶν ἀδελφῶν ‘he left, being commended by the brothers to the kindness of the Lord’ Ac 15:40.

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 748–749.

Note it doesn't say sinless.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

Again, nothing about sinless.

Uh-hun, and nothing about "rejecting" the longer definition,
That's what I thought . . .f

Here is a perfect example of ONE WORD defined by FOUR different sources with DIFFERENTLY nuanced definitions:
Definition of "Paranoia":

Dictionary.com
baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

Google Dictionary
a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.

Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
mental illness characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations

Cambridge Dictionary
a strong tendency to feel that you cannot trust other people or that other people have a bad opinion of you, or medical a mental illness that causes extreme feelings that others are trying to harm you.

I rest my case . . .

No, but they are all a part of one organization, the same organization the United Nations.

Uh-huh, yet they are ALL distinctly different nations.

Which of course is a bold faced lie.

So, you've presented Scriptural, historical and linguistic evidence for your position like I have?
Can you point me to the post where you did this??

Boy - talk about "bold-face lies" . . .

 

[Taken]

Ummmmm, talk about "beating around the bush" . . .

If you can't deal with Mary's title of "Kecharitomene" -= then you can't have an intelligent conversation about it.
I have given you the definition about TWENTY times now and you keep dodging it. Deal with it and get back to me . . .

Already dealt with your Title issue. There are many titles mentioned in Scripture such as;
god; lord; bishop; deacon.

So what? A title doesn't make a person naturally born sinless.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

And what this ALL boils down to once again is that Jesus was a MAN - and God.
And, YOU haven't been able to show me - from Scripture - that there are "different kinds" of men other than HUMAN.

Good grief...Don't you ever look up, read and study Scirpture?

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Your teaching Mary was Without Sin from her own natural birth, was her Birth, not her DEATH. "Except it die", is a requirement of a Body to become Dead, before it can be quickened.

[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh:

[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[43] It is sown in dishouner ; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

You can blather on with your verbose, psychotic rants - but in the end, you haven't shown this because you CAN'T.
Funny how all of your non-Catholic friends here have ABANDONED you on this point. I wonder why . . .

You spend your time making outrageous claims without Scriptural verification.

You and I and every other person on this forum are well aware WHY you can not give Scriptural Verification for your outrageous claims. You are regurgitating Catholic Doctrine that was NOT the Doctrine of Christ Jesus or His Chosen Disciples/Apostles.

Why do you continue to wonder, after you have been told?
I have already addressed your abandonement claims. Get a Q-tip... People think you are a waste of time to converse with, and are sick of wasting their time reading your incessive snarky accusations and claims.
BTW, why don't you worry about your lack of support from your Catholic buddies?

There is no exception teaching Mary was sewn in a Natural Sinless Earthy Body.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

Already dealt with your Title issue. There are many titles mentioned in Scripture such as;
god; lord; bishop; deacon.

So what? A title doesn't make a person naturally born sinless.

Glory to God,
Taken

full of grace yes she was highly favored .to be used by the Lord to bring the christ seed in. mary was only a chosen vessel . she has no more spiritual standing in heaven than anyone else . she has no throne no authority just a young virgin.. the catholic teaching on mary is way off base.

Hail Mary: Kecharitomene, A Unique Word for a Unique Lady the Lord chose her bring cHRIST IN. TO FULFILL PROPHECY she has no power to forgive sin nor can she intercede in our prayers

 

[Ezra]

Good grief...Don't you ever look up, read and study Scripture?

do you really want thee answer. obvious all they know is thus saith the catholic teaching

 

[Taken]

do you really want thee answer. obvious all they know is thus saith the catholic teaching

He can carry on with all his nonsense, and has an out to hail Mary and be forgiven.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

He can carry on with all his nonsense, and has an out to hail Mary and be forgiven.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[epostle]

χαριτόω (χάρις)
1 aor. ἐχαρίτωσα;
• pf. pass. ptc. κεχαριτωμένος (Sir 18:17; Ps 17:26 Sym.; EpArist 225; TestJos 1:6; BGU 1026, XXIII, 24 [IV A.D.]; Cat. Cod. Astr. XII 162, 14; Rhet. Gr. I 429, 31; Achmes 2, 18) to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless, in our lit. only w. ref. to the divine χάρις (but Did., Gen. 162, 8 of Noah διὰ τῶν τῆς ἀρετῆς ἔργων χαριτώσας ἑαυτόν):
• ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίτωσεν αὐτοὺς ἐν πάσῃ πράξει αὐτῶν Hs 9, 24, 3.
• τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ (=τοῦ θεοῦ), ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ God’s great favor, with which he favored us through his beloved (Son) Eph 1:6.
• Pass. (Libanius, Progymn. 12, 30, 12 vol. VIII p. 544, 10 F. χαριτούμενος=favored; cp. Geminus [I B.C.], Elem. Astronomiae [Manitius 1898] 8, 9 κεχαρισμένον εἶναι τοῖς θεοῖς) in the angel’s greeting to Mary κεχαριτωμένη one who has been favored (by God) Lk 1:28 (SLyonnet, Biblica 20, ’39, 131–41; MCambe, RB 70, ’63, 193–207; JNolland, Luke’s Use of χάρις: NTS 32, ’86, 614–20);
• GJs 11:1.

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 1081.

Note note of the above says sinless.

They don't have to. This quote defines χαριτόω, or charitoo, and lists it in context with a passive participle. I changed the font to red so you can find it easy. A Greek passive participle refers to the past, pesent and future. To the extent that κεχαριτωμένη means FULL OF GRACE, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, it does not mean 99.9% full, with a little sin on the side. I agree with your linguistic sources, but you are reading into them what isn't there. What part of " to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless" don't you understand?

God did not HAVE TO make Mary sinless, He chose to. He has the power to do things like that, remember?

88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος f: to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28; ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ‘which he has graciously shown us in the one he loves’ Eph 1:6. V 1, p 749 χάριςa: ἐξῆλθεν παραδοθεὶς τῇ χάριτι τοῦ κυρίου ὑπὸ τῶν ἀδελφῶν ‘he left, being commended by the brothers to the kindness of the Lord’ Ac 15:40.

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 748–749.

Note it doesn't say sinless.​

88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος defines "acceptance", listing κεχαριτωμένη as a synonym, not a definition. This quote is a snippet from a book not found on line, and only one place after a google search: Discernment Ministries International. Nothing wrong with that. Johannes P. Louw is a reputable linguist. If you can find a copy of the book where your quote came from, find out what he says about Kecharitomene as it is used in Luke 1:28. If kindness is synonymous with grace, then logically Mary would be full of kindness. But the angel didn't say "Hail Mary! Full of kindness, now did she. The angel in Luke always speaks in royal terms, not sentimentalities. These are God's words delivered, and He doesn't mess around.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

Again, nothing about sinless.

Again, nothing about the slightest trace of sin either. You need to find out what these scholars mean by

a passive participle.
You won't accept anything I say, or you will ignore what they do say. ​

Greek Participles
https://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/participles.htm
Use of the Greek Participle A participle is called a 'verbal adjective' because it is formed from a verb, yet often modifies other words. Oftentimes it may be hard to translate a participle into English and still bring out the same force as it has in the Greek. First try to understand the meaning of the Greek participle is trying to convey, then worry about an appropriate English translation.

Koine Greek: Participles - WikiChristian
www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Koine_Greek:_Participles
The Aorist Passive Participle is formed using the Aorist stem, without an Augment, and adding a θ plus a specific ending. It is translated as "having been verb +ed". Masculine Paradigm

The Time Element of Aorist Participles · NTGreek.org Blog
blog.ntgreek.org/?p=28
A participle is a non-finite verbal form. The verbal concept of “tense” in Greek embodies two different elements, “time” and “kind of action“. “Time”, of course, means past, present, or future; just as in English. “Kind of action” refers to whether the action is continuous, a simple occurrence, or a completed action.

There is no doctrinal bias as none of these sources are Catholic.

 

[epostle]

full of grace yes she was highly favored .to be used by the Lord to bring the christ seed in. mary was only a chosen vessel . she has no more spiritual standing in heaven than anyone else . she has no throne no authority just a young virgin.. the catholic teaching on mary is way off base.

Hail Mary: Kecharitomene, A Unique Word for a Unique Lady the Lord chose her bring cHRIST IN. TO FULFILL PROPHECY she has no power to forgive sin nor can she intercede in our prayers

Nobody said, or ever taught, that Mary can forgive sins. Mary takes our prayers to God, not to herself. God decides whether or not He will answer it, not Mary. If prayers are answered, or miracles occur, or healings happen, it's because of God, not Mary. She can do nothing without God. Blind prejudice and pride keeps you from seeing this simple concept. Your anti-Mary animus is not biblical. You are arguing against a card board caricature of Catholic teaching of your own making, because that is what you have been trained to think. Back on ignore you go, I don't debate with children.

 

[Ezra]

Mary takes our prayers to God,

care to show book chapter and verse that says that ? the Holt Spirit interceded for us not mary. see you have nothing scripture wise to back up this mary beelief

because that is what you have been trained to think. Back on ignore you go, I don't debate with children.

let me know when you get off the milk and ready for strong meat . ignore the truth if you loke ignore me , i will sleep just fine

 

[reformed1689]

They don't have to. This quote defines χαριτόω, or charitoo, and lists it in context with a passive participle. I changed the font to red so you can find it easy. A Greek passive participle refers to the past, pesent and future. To the extent that κεχαριτωμένη means FULL OF GRACE, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, it does not mean 99.9% full, with a little sin on the side. I agree with your linguistic sources, but you are reading into them what isn't there. What part of " to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless" don't you understand?

Full of grace DOES NOT EQUAL sinless.

 

[reformed1689]

God did not HAVE TO make Mary sinless, He chose to. He has the power to do things like that, remember?

There is nothing in Scripture that states this. Especially not this verse.

Again, nothing about the slightest trace of sin either. You need to find out what these scholars mean by

a passive participle.​

It doesn't have to say she had sin, we already know she did because she was born only as a human. She was not God. All have sinned.

Again, nothing about the slightest trace of sin either. You need to find out what these scholars mean by

a passive participle.
You won't accept anything I say, or you will ignore what they do say. ​

No, you need to understand that full of grace does not mean sinless.

 

[reformed1689]

Uh-huh, yet they are ALL distinctly different nations.

And every Southern Baptist Church is a distinctly different church yet still Southern Baptist. Your argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Taken]

OP

Gods Angels are Messengers.
Gods Faithful Angels are Messengers sent to speak to Humans Gods Truth.

Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

An Angel (named Gabriel) came to Mary, (a young Jewish Virgin woman residing in Nazareth.)

The Angel Gabriel's Salutation TO Mary.
1) Hail, (hello, greetings) Mary, (the person)
2) Highly Favored, (the Angel signifies she IS highly favored.


The Angel notifies Mary;

1) she is highly favored...
(Favored by whom? God, Angels, People?
Likely God, since the messenger is sent by God.)
2) the Lord is "with" her.
(Is the Lord not with other women? Doesn't say.)
3) "she" is "blessed", among women.
(Are other women NOT blessed? Doesn't say).

[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Mary wondered, what manner of WHAT?
(Salutation, Greeting, "of highly favored", the Angel was saying to her.)

[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

The Angel said for her to not be Afraid.
(Afraid of what? Afraid of the Angel speaking to her? Afraid what the Angel was going to tell her? Afraid God might ask her to do something she won't think she can do?
Doesn't say.)

Mary is informed God has found favour with her? For what? For what reason does God find favour with anyone?

Anyone being "favoured" BY God, Scripture reveals, the Reason is Because, the person, IS/HAS 'done" Gods "will".

What DID Mary, "Already DO", according to Gods WILL, before the Angel appeared to her?

What Mary DID, is not revealed until AFTER the Angel greeted her.
Mary herself, reveals, Behold, (ie LOOK upon/at) her, whom she herself says is the "handmaid of the Lord".

That notifies us of TWO things:
1) Mary BELIEVES in the Lord.
2) Mary IS an obedient servant to the Lord.

[38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord;

[38] And Mary said...(To the Angel...that she was WILLING to Do what the Lords WILL was for her, ACCORDING TO the Lords WILL.)
...be it unto me according to thy word.

And After Mary agreed...the Angel departed.

[38]...And the angel departed from her.

Further notification AFTER the fact.

[45] And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Blessed is she that believ-ED.

It is Elizabeth who Already KNEW Mary believ-ED in the Lord, and Verifies the knowledge of Mary's BELIEF.

(In Early OT ancient history, we find, God Instructing...men Doing...men "wondering" if them Doing as Instructed, "gains them"...
"FAVOR WITH GOD"...)

Example:
Gen 17...
God speaks to Abram.
God changes Abram's name.
God reveals a Covenant with Abraham.
God reveal His promise to Abraham,
...should Abraham fulfill Gods requirement.
God requires Abraham to perform Circumcisions.
Abraham obeys Gods instruction, revealing
...Abrahams agreeing to serve God according
...to Gods WILL.
Gen 18
Abraham, having been Obedient according to Gods WILL, Asks "IF" he (Abraham) HAS found Favor with God.
Response:
Abraham's prayers become answered;
Abraham SHALL receive Gods Blessing.
His "elderly, barren, wife Sarah, shall have a child".
Abraham's child shall be a boy, and "he" shall "also" receive Gods Covenant, (promise), as had Abraham.

This acknowledges; Favor with God, is given BY God, forward to those:
Who Believe IN God
And
Do Gods WILL, "according to" Gods instruction.

The Angel INFORMS Mary, of Gods WILL.

[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

The Angel INFORMS Mary, About the "greatness" of child she SHALL be Pregnant with IN her womb.


[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Mary is puzzled, that she could Become "pregnant", without having had a sexual relation with a man.

[34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

The Angel INFORMS Mary, her pregnancy is by SUPERNATURAL means.

[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:

[35} therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Angel FURTHER INFORMS Mary...
Because her pregancy IS SUPERNATURAL,
AN Act, performed BY God...the Child thus, SHALL BE CALLED...
the "Son of God".

Did the Angel say to Mary...Call the son Mary shall bring forth/birth...the son of Mary? The son of Joseph? Uh, no.

[36] And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
[37] For with God nothing shall be impossible.
[38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Immediately after the Angel departs from Mary. Mary goes to visit her cousin Elisabeth, and tell Elisabeth of her news.

Elisabeth responds;
[45] And blessed is she that believed:

Immediately after Elisabeth responds of the knowledge Mary has BELIEVED, Elisabeth acknowledges Mary is Blessed.

Look at what a person DOES, WHO BELIEVES, and IS FAVORED for their BELIEF, and Receives Gods BLESSING....

[46] And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
[47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
[49] For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
[50] And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
[51] He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
[52] He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
[53] He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
[54] He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
[55] As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
[56] And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

Mary reveals "as" her favored and blessed forefathers had revealed...

It is an individuals own Actions, that receives a RESPONSE FROM GOD, that God has FAVORED THEM, and BLESSED THEM...
FOR: their Belief and Obedience.

AND, "that" a Truly favored and blessed person, "ACKNOWLEDGES" Gods favor and blessing.........BY Glorifying HIM, with their own gladness and EXALTING WORDS regarding HIM.

Don't make up the FACTS.

[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

1) Mary Was Informed she was Highly Favored.

WHAT exactly MAKES any "person" "highly favored", WHO IS NATURALLY BORN, when Scripture informs us, ALL are naturally born in SIN?

Being Naturally BORN IN SIN, "IS never Scripturally revealed, is BEING IN FAVOR with God."

Mary is revealed, as a Believer, and Obedient to Gods Word. <--- THAT like any other person natural born person IN Scripture, reveals ... She wasn't naturally BORN a Believer....But that she BECAME a Believer.

Mary was a JEW. The custom of Jews was to TEACH their children ABOUT God, and HIS Word and HIS expectation and HIS promises, and HIS blessings FOR a persons Obedience.

There is not Scriptural details of Mary's Life Before the Angel approached her.

The Knowledge we have IS About Jewish Customs and Traditions......
AND
Mary's reaction AFTER the Angel approached her....being completely inline with Jewish Teaching, Customs and Traditions.

Believing, Trusting the Word of God.
Agreeing to be of Service, according to Gods WILL.
Praising and Exalting God for what God informs her, what service she IS Called to DO for God.

Our written Teaching comes from God, forward out of His mouth, in His Word, appearing in the Likeness as a man, having taken upon Himself, the Law, Customs, traditions of Jews, forward To His chosen Jewish Disciples, His appointed Jewish Teaching Apostles, To .... JEWS.

The Place established for Jewish Men to teach Jews...being called a Church.
And the CONVERTED IN Christ....called "members" of Christ's Church, (which isn't a building at all)....but rather IS;
A revealing of the individuals Agreement TO BE Subject to Christ Jesus....thus the Individual is called Christ's Church.

The People who gathered and Heard AND BELIEVED what they were being Taught....were called Jesus followers...(by the persons OWN declaration of Following after Jesus' teachings)...and were called Christians....(BY People WHO DID NOT BELIEVE).

The People who Heard AND Believed AND declared their BELIEF....are Scripturally called Forgiven AND Converted IN Christ.

^ THEY "are" THEM, that trusted to BELIEVE and BECOME "converted", and therefore, Agreed to BE SUBJECT TO...
Christ Jesus, and "HIS" Covenant. "HIS" promises, "HIS" blessings, "HIS" favoritism...
Which by DEFAULT, makes a person;
SUBJECT TO...Gods promises, blessing, favoritism.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

STICK WITH THE "Lords" FACTS:

Jesus Established the Church, He IS the ROCK Foundation, And His Church "IS" Within Himself, And His Believers are WITHIN Christ Jesus, and He WITHIN His believers...
without regard to a building.

Jews Established the building/tent/brick mortar/stick......and called it a Church, per Jesus' FACTS.

Jews Taught Jews. "Scriptural FACT".

Jews Taught Jews What JESUS SAID. "Scriptural FACT"

Jews Taught;
Jesus "IS" without SIN.
Jesus "IS" a persons INTERCESSORY TO God the Father.
Abraham "IS" a persons "earthly father".
"Scriptural FACT"

What HAPPENED WHEN Jesus' Chosen Apostles, physically began DYING?

Jews began, DEPARTING from the Church.
Jews began, TO STOP, being SUBJECTED "TO Christ Jesus".
Jews began, Going BACK to being SUBJECTED TO Mosaic Law.
"Scriptural FACT".

WHO began ASSUMING, "Leadership ROLES" of the "CHURCH" buildings? And building MORE "Church buildings" ?
"Documented Fact".

GENTILES.

WHO began DICTATING "DOCTRINES" for "their" Churches?
"Documented Fact".

GENTILES.

WHO began DICTATING:
Mary was naturally born WITHOUT SIN?
"Documented Fact".

GENTILES.

WHO began DICTATING.
Mary is a persons INTECESSORY to God?
"Documented Fact".

GENTILES.

WHO began DICTATING.
Their own ELECTION of an Earthly father.
"Documented Fact".

GENTILES.

Pay ATTENTION, to WHOM is TEACHING WHAT, and by WHOSE Authority they Teach what they Teach.

Glory to God,
Taken