Typical Protestant response.
Ask for scripture. Then when they get scripture want some very specific scripture.
But when they post they pick bits from here and there out of comntext, stick them together and come up with nonsense.
The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective
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Typical Protestant response.
Ask for scripture. Then when they get scripture want some very specific scripture.
But when they post they pick bits from here and there out of comntext, stick them together and come up with nonsense.
Scripture reveals, "sinless" does NOT APPLY to anyone BUT the Lord God Almighty.
Anyone Converted,
is Saved (soul), (a restored soul)
is Quickened (spirit), (born of Gods Seed)...
And the Corrupt Body, of every human, born from the Corrupt seed of earthy men...
Becomes, "DEAD".
That "dead, crucified With Christ's body"...
Becomes: washed, sanctified, covered, and...
Still "DEAD".
The person thereafter, LIVES "IN" Christ's risen body.
The person's body, is still "DEAD".
It is during the time of the "RISING UP", of the BODY, that the Converted individuals BODY becomes "changed"...
Their Body...by the Power of God,
SHALL BE risen up IN Glory...
SHALL BE. It is a future event.
IN GLORY. Gods Perfecting of the individuals own body.
The Rising up, and Claiming, and Taking, IS a Glorification and Resurrection and Redeeming.
He who has Authority and Power to GLORIFY a body...<---> Lord God Almighty
He who has Authority and Power to RAISE a Body UP...<--- > Lord God Almighty.
He who has Authority and Power to CLAIM and TAKE a Body...<----> Lord God Almighty.
By What Authority does the Lord God Almighty HAVE the Authority to "TAKE" a raised "BODY' unto Himself?
BY the Authority "given" the Lord God, "BY" the Individual....WHO; Willingly "GAVE" the Lord God "Authority" over the mans own Body.
OT men, showed their Belief and Agreement and Obedience TO God BY, obeying instruction according to the Letter of the Law.
An OT Believing man, at his Physical death...
1) body would be buried.
2) soul would depart dead body, go to hell, with Abraham.
3) spirit had not been quickened yet.
An OT Unbelieving man, at his Physical death.
1) body would be buried.
2) soul would depart dead body, go to hell,
Separated from Abraham.
3) spirit was not quickened.
Men WITH Abraham, were not WAITING to be "purified"...They were WAITING for the Lord to Come to them, to QUICKEN their spirits, and for Him to Leave...so there after, Him being FIRST to Leave....SO ALSO, could their Saved (Faithful) Souls AND Quickened spirits, Rise UP to Heaven, and WAIT THERE, for their Body's to be Risen up in Glory.
Those living souls Remaining, in Hell and Going to Hell daily....Are Living Souls out of Dead Bodies, That while they were Living Body's...Rejected the Lord God.
THEY are Not Waiting for "purification" and "joining" the believers.
THEY are Waiting (separated from God), FOR Judgement, and Sentencing and eternal Separation "from" God. <---> That which they chose WHEN Alive in their flesh and blood body, God Shall give to them what they wanted. God is Just.
So what exactly is the Catholic Teaching....
Something of a man...
What?
Body? Soul? Spirit?
Goes to some undescript place?
Purgatory...heaven? No. earth? No. hell? No.
And waits for some kind of purification?
When?
And then what? What then happens to this unidentifed....whatever... body or soul or spirit?
Glory to God,
Taken
reformed1689
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And here is where this is falls apart. If one human can somehow be declared sinless and be born to a sinful human, why does it necessitate Mary be sinless? Nothing in Scripture says she was sinless. Luke 1:28 does not say she was sinless, in fact, it doesn't even discuss her sinful status.
Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.
“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” (2Pet 1:3-4).
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
“Be holy because I am holy”.
How holy is God? – 100%
“Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect”
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%
We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.
When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitome, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178))
Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).
As Mary herself said “he who is mighty has done great things for me” (Lk 1:49)
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary’s womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptable.
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).
"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).
I honour my Queen who was greatly honoured by her son and sits at his right hand; the Son who is the “King of kings and Lord of lords”, who himself sits on the throne of David and whose kingdom has no end.
You can believe this or not. You can honour Mary or not.
“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” (2Pet 1:3-4).
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
“Be holy because I am holy”.
How holy is God? – 100%
“Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect”
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%
We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.
When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitome, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178))
Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).
As Mary herself said “he who is mighty has done great things for me” (Lk 1:49)
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary’s womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptable.
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).
"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).
I honour my Queen who was greatly honoured by her son and sits at his right hand; the Son who is the “King of kings and Lord of lords”, who himself sits on the throne of David and whose kingdom has no end.
You can believe this or not. You can honour Mary or not.
I found this explanation of “chaire kecharitomene” on EWTN some while back
“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”
"charis" – Means “grace”
"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”
"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.
"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.
Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!
“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”
"charis" – Means “grace”
"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”
"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.
"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.
Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!
Hello epostle,
Well, I got saved in my 50"s. and am trying to find the write words to tell my friend.
She is still catholic, and has the belief I had. From the same church of course.
And I only write letters to her. She has no computer and does not want one.
And I do not want a phone, since I would only have 3 people to talk to.
And the other 2 I can use the computer...... and me and my family here see them once a year.
So I guess Eph. 2: 7&8 will be put into my letter and what ever else I can think of.
Well, I got saved in my 50"s. and am trying to find the write words to tell my friend.
She is still catholic, and has the belief I had. From the same church of course.
And I only write letters to her. She has no computer and does not want one.
And I do not want a phone, since I would only have 3 people to talk to.
And the other 2 I can use the computer...... and me and my family here see them once a year.
So I guess Eph. 2: 7&8 will be put into my letter and what ever else I can think of.
Hello epostle,
I am fine now, going to Grace Church saved me....... We have a great teacher !!!!!!
When some one new comes he just seems to know what to talk about...
My husband is gone now, so I say that GOD sure put us in the right spot at the right time.
How Wonderful our GOD is.............
& again and again ,,,etc...
I am fine now, going to Grace Church saved me....... We have a great teacher !!!!!!
When some one new comes he just seems to know what to talk about...
My husband is gone now, so I say that GOD sure put us in the right spot at the right time.
How Wonderful our GOD is.............
& again and again ,,,etc...
BreadOfLife
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Uhhhhh, the Angel “notified” Mary that she was going to become PREGNANT by the Holy Spirit. This is a completely separate issue from her status as “Kecharitomene”. “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” simply means, “You will become PREGNANT by the Holy spirit”, Einstein.
Also – the Angel NEVER used the word “Favor” with Mary. If you read the original GREEK text – the word used in BOTH places where “favor” is used is a variation of GRACE (charis). “Kecharitomene” in verse 28 and “Charis” in verse 30. The NT wasn't written in Old English.
Do your homework next time . . .
BreadOfLife
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With ALL of your Scriptural acrobatics – you have YET to show a SINGLE verse that shows there are different KINDS of men.
The verses from 1 Cor. 15 simply differentiate that one man is only human and the other man is BOTH human AND God.
Don’t just R*E*A*D the Bible – learn HOW to understand what it says . . .
BreadOfLife
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Yet, not only has he NOT used Scripture - he hasn't mounted a case at ALL except for his own opinions.
STILL waiting for a Scriptural refutation . . .
BreadOfLife
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Because, by your own admission, you refused to own or read a Bible.
Shame on you for blaming the Church for YOUR spiritual laziness . . .
reformed1689
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Already done so, multiple times, on multiple topics that are now a part of this thread. It's quite dishonest of you to say otherwise.
BreadOfLife
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And yet, you learned nothing because of your spiritual laziness.
You were just a pew-filler . . .
reformed1689
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If only the church can interpret Scripture, why should the common man need to read or own a Bible? Just let the church educate them right?
BreadOfLife
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Uhhhh, no.
You posted a few irrelevant verses with ZERO exegesis or explanation.
That’s throwing blind punches in the dark – not a Scriptural refutation.
BreadOfLife
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Conversely – if tens of thousands of different men have tens of thousands of different interpretations that lead hundreds of millions of people in endless directions – how is THIS a good thing??
Are you saying that you can‘t glean anything valuable from a verse that has been interpreted by one of your pastors simply because YOU didn’t interpret it??
That’s pathetic . . .
Scripture never claims Mary was Without Sin.
Mary never claimed she was Without Sin.
^ That claim is By human men making up nonsense that turns the Truth into a Lie.
1 John 1
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Poor Mary, has millions of Catholics Making that deceptive claim..."For" her.
How many times do have to be warned to not Speak for Others? Shame on you.
Glory to God,
Taken
LOL....Hard as you try...to convince others of your Catholic doctrine....It is REJECTED!
God DOES NOT CHANGE!
Jesus IS not EARTHY!
Catholic understanding comes from Catholic minds and Catholic philosophies.
Deceptive as it is...that is your preference...and has zero effect on me.
Gods understanding comes from God.
I'll stick with Gods Understanding.
Glory to God,
Taken
BreadOfLife
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WHY would Mary go around claiming that she was without sin?? Is this required of her in order to be sinless??
Can you show me ONE verse of Scripture where Jesus claimed to be without sin?
Can you show me ONE verse of Scripture where Isaiah claimed to be a prophet??
Can you show me ONE verse of Scripture where Joseph claimed to be the foster-father of Jesus??
Yeah – that’s what I thought . . .
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