The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Marymog

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Nope, strawman argument.


Also strawman. I am saying there are no more apostles. I never said there were not teachers/pastors.
Nope, not a straw man argument. It is your theory and instead of articulating a defense of your theory you accuse me of having a straw man argument.....:(

That is called deflection.
 

Marymog

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No actually it isn't. The works are the evidence of the faith. Doesn't destroy faith alone (which is clearly taught in Scripture) at all.
REALLY????? So Scripture is wrong and you are right????

Hmmmmm......
 

Marymog

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That's not my position. If you are just going to keep saying I am saying something I have not said I'm done with this conversation.
I quoted you. If you would like to change your statement to better reflect what you believe then by all means....change your statement.
 

BreadOfLife

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Because you believe we are saved by something other than faith in Christ.
No I don’t.
In fact – the Catholic Church AGREES with the Lutherans that we are saved by faith alone – as long as you understand WHAT faith actually is.

What YOU have describes as “faith” is mere belief. That’s not faith because even the DEMONS have that (James 2:19). Belief is only ONE element of TRUE faith, which is Belief + Obedience.

James goes to great lengths to describe this (James 2:14-26).
 

Taken

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“Weirdo”?
It’s hilarious how YOU constantly accuse me of “name-calling” – yet it’s YOU who engages in name-calling and NOT me. “Weirdo”, “dunce”, “idiot”, etc. – you’re FULL of them.

So? You do namecall.

As for Scripture NOT implying that Mary was born sinless – that is incorrect.

Disagree.

It doesn’t explicitly say that she was

Correct.

but it certainly does IMPLICITLY.

Disagree.

Remember – Scripture teaches us BOTH explicitly AND implicitly.

THAT ^ is "YOUR" memory.
MY memory of Scripture IS;
Who, What, When, Why & Where IS Expressly Taught...AND....
His WILL...SHALL Be Done\

It is explicitly taught by Scripture that Mary gave birth to the New Covenant, Jesus.

Mary gave birth to the New Covenant?
No she didn't.
Jesus IS the New Covenant?
No He isn't.

A Covenant, isn't a birth or Jesus.
A Covenant is a Promise.

Therefore,
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant – the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant. Here is a Scriptural comparison of the Type and Fulfillment between the Old Ark and the New Ark:

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT -
The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9
NT -
"Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT -
The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT -
When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT -
The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God
goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT -
The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT -
Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT -
The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

The Ark of the Covenant was purified and blessed inside and out when it was created.
It is fitting that the Ark of the NEW Covenant would ALSO be purified and blessed during her creation.
The Angel’s greeting of “Kecharitomene” supports this position.[/QUOTE]

First you have to MAKE Jesus the "Covenant", then you have to MAKE Mary the "Ark".

Jesus is the Word of God.
The Word of God, CAME FORTH OUT FROM Gods MOUTH (in Heaven) and BY the POWER of God...was SENT TO a Virgin Womb of a Jewish Woman, AND The Word of God would be BORN...According to the Law of Nature {coming forth from the Virgins Womb, AFTER she Married and ( 9 months later), and the that which came forth from her Womb, WOULD APPEAR in a Body, prepared of God, in the LIKENESS of earthy men.

It is the Word of God, that came Forth.
It is the Word of God, WHO revealed the Promises of the New Covenant.

It is Mary, who was According to Roman Law and Jewish Law, the baby's Mother.

It is Jesus, who was According to Roman Law and Jewish Law, the "natural" son and descendent of Mary and Joseph.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Lord from Heaven, the Word of God, God Himself.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Christ, who is the POWER of God and WISDOM of God.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the SEED of God.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Quickening SPIrIT.

It is WHEN a man IS forgiven;
A mans BODY DIES;
A mans SOUL is RESTORED;
A mans SPIRIT is QUICKENED;

The man is PREPARED to be RISEN IN GLORY.

Dead in Christ bodies, Saved souls, Quickened Spirits, ARE already forgiven their SINS...and sin NO MORE.

They receive Grace, Blessings, Gifts, Promises, Common Ways to Serve Christ, Specific Ways to Serve Christ,
God WITH them, They IN Christ...

No man HAS YET received his Glorified Body.

You are trying to MAKE, Grace "given to Mary" as "MAKING" her "SINLESS".

It was JESUS who was EXPRESSLY taught IN Scripture is SINLESS....NOT Mary.

Dude NO earthy person has been RAISED in a New Glorious SINLESS BODY.

Mary was conceived in her mother Just like every other human....With a human mans corrupt seed.

There are No marriages of humans in Heaven.

There are No Mothers IN Heaven.

There are NO humans bodies IN Heaven.

There ARE, Saved souls and Quickened spirits OF Humans IN Heaven, called SAINTS, Because their Body's SHALL be raised IN Glory, According TO the Lord Gods Covenant.

The Straight forward Scriptural Teaching Does NOT Require Implication, and the Stretching of the Truth to INCLUDE what men have counjoured up in their minds.

Remember the Carnal Mind is Against God.
And so much of what the Catholics Teach AS FACTS, is no more than what men conjoured up in their minds.

So, yet again, I do not agree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Marymog

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More strawman, that is NOT what I said.
Matthias was NOT chosen by Christ to be an Apostle soooooo that criteria wasn't met with him. Matthias was a reliable man who was, according to the Apostles, qualified to teach others. Timothy was a reliable man who was not chosen by Christ who was qualified to teach others sooooo how is it a straw man?

Hopefully you can clear this up because your confusing me....
 

Marymog

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No, you have said something that is not my interpretation of Scripture. That IS a strawman.
Well, I quoted you, soooooo if that is not your interpretation of Scripture then you need to write some more words so I better understand your interpretation.

Mary
 

Taken

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It’s called deductive reasoning.
You can come to a fairly accurate conclusion when a person puts out a clear signal.

Yes "deductive reasoning"....Precisely!
Deductive "reasoning" is the result of USING MINDFUL LOGIC to conclude "what an individual THINKS is the best answer."

Scripture teaches, To REASON, what the Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.....

It does not say to use your MINDFUL LOGIC to make up things OUTSIDE of Scripture and deduce it is a FACT!

It’s similar to when a child swears that he didn’t eat that last piece of chocolate cake in the refrigerator – yet he had
chocolate frosting and cake crumbs stuck to his face.

No. It's kind of like what you say, that Mary was endowed with Grace....blah, blah....THEREFORE....She has always been SINLESS, (even from her own birth, having been naturally born from a corrupt seed!)

Kinda like when YOU run away every time I ask you to address “Kecharitomene”. I can deduce that you simply DON’T have a valid response . . .

Well that is one of YOUR LIES, and the Posts REVEAL, I haven't run anywhere, but Answered your ridiculous comments with Rejection.

Why make up lies about other people?
Try to find another way to vent your anger for your claims being rejected.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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So? You do namecall.

Disagree.
Correct.
Disagree.

THAT ^ is "YOUR" memory.
MY memory of Scripture IS;
Who, What, When, Why & Where IS Expressly Taught...AND....
His WILL...SHALL Be Done\

Mary gave birth to the New Covenant?
No she didn't.
Jesus IS the New Covenant?
No He isn't.

A Covenant, isn't a birth or Jesus.
A Covenant is a Promise.

First you have to MAKE Jesus the "Covenant", then you have to MAKE Mary the "Ark".

Jesus is the Word of God.
The Word of God, CAME FORTH OUT FROM Gods MOUTH (in Heaven) and BY the POWER of God...was SENT TO a Virgin Womb of a Jewish Woman, AND The Word of God would be BORN...According to the Law of Nature {coming forth from the Virgins Womb, AFTER she Married and ( 9 months later), and the that which came forth from her Womb, WOULD APPEAR in a Body, prepared of God, in the LIKENESS of earthy men.

It is the Word of God, that came Forth.
It is the Word of God, WHO revealed the Promises of the New Covenant.

It is Mary, who was According to Roman Law and Jewish Law, the baby's Mother.

It is Jesus, who was According to Roman Law and Jewish Law, the "natural" son and descendent of Mary and Joseph.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Lord from Heaven, the Word of God, God Himself.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Christ, who is the POWER of God and WISDOM of God.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the SEED of God.

It is Jesus who was revealed IS the Quickening SPIrIT.

It is WHEN a man IS forgiven;
A mans BODY DIES;
A mans SOUL is RESTORED;
A mans SPIRIT is QUICKENED;

The man is PREPARED to be RISEN IN GLORY.

Dead in Christ bodies, Saved souls, Quickened Spirits, ARE already forgiven their SINS...and sin NO MORE.

They receive Grace, Blessings, Gifts, Promises, Common Ways to Serve Christ, Specific Ways to Serve Christ,
God WITH them, They IN Christ...

No man HAS YET received his Glorified Body.

You are trying to MAKE, Grace "given to Mary" as "MAKING" her "SINLESS".

It was JESUS who was EXPRESSLY taught IN Scripture is SINLESS....NOT Mary.

Dude NO earthy person has been RAISED in a New Glorious SINLESS BODY.

Mary was conceived in her mother Just like every other human....With a human mans corrupt seed.

There are No marriages of humans in Heaven.

There are No Mothers IN Heaven.

There are NO humans bodies IN Heaven.

There ARE, Saved souls and Quickened spirits OF Humans IN Heaven, called SAINTS, Because their Body's SHALL be raised IN Glory, According TO the Lord Gods Covenant.

The Straight forward Scriptural Teaching Does NOT Require Implication, and the Stretching of the Truth to INCLUDE what men have counjoured up in their minds.

Remember the Carnal Mind is Against God.
And so much of what the Catholics Teach AS FACTS, is no more than what men conjoured up in their minds.

So, yet again, I do not agree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken
Ummmmmmm, this is a debate about Mary’s IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

Because you can never just stick to the point or particulate an argument intelligently – you babble on endlessly about “quickened spirits in Heaven, glorified bodies, saved souls, your Docetist Heresy, etc. We weren’t discussing ANY of this.

Look – if you can’t present an intelligent argument against Mary’s title of “Kecharitomene” – or her role as the Ark of the NEW Covenant (Jesus) – just admit it and move on.

Finally, as to your claim that Christ is NOT the New Covenant – you ‘re dead wrong. He embodies EVERY aspect of the New Covenant. He is Salvation itself. The best part is – even if you completely disregard Mary as you do, relegating her as a simple “vessel” (ark) – you are ADMITTING that she is the Ark of the New Covenant . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Which I have explicitly said otherwise. I have said multiple times true faith is accompanied by evidence of that faith.
No, "accompanied by" and "evidence of" are NOT what Scripture teaches.
Obedience is an essential ELEMENT of faith. Without it, all you have is belief.
 

Taken

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The Bible is clear that Faith =Belief+Obedience.

Anything less is NOT faith . . .

The Bible is Clear...
Faith IS a Gift From God for a man having Belief, AND....Reasonable Service...

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Didn't you claim, it was your parents that presented your body, WITHOUT "your" knowledge?

Glory to God,
Taken