The Double-edged Sword

[VictoryinJesus]

and the guy suggesting "severed spirits" rather than regenerated ones and not offering me any Scripture and avoiding pertinent questions to boot is asking me this?

And ps the Bible is not Word, all you are doing is demonstrating that you have never heard Word ok; once you hear Word you don't conflate the Two any more

Consider

Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Consider

Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

imo we should prolly examine the term "divided," as we can even detect the diff defs of "split apart" and more like "examined" or "sifted" or something?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

imo we should prolly examine the term "divided," as we can even detect the diff defs of "split apart" and more like "examined" or "sifted" or something?

He said to not think He came to bring peace but division. And a house fell. Consider the concubine cut into parts and sent out to the tribes of Israel. The dispersed into the land He sent them:
(error before it is smite the shepherd and the sheep will scatter) Genesis 49:7-11 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel. [8] Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. [9] Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? [10] The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be . [11] Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

God’s wrath brings division and houses fall but His peace brings healing of division and a gathering of people and nations into One. Matthew 19:6
[6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Acts 14:4
[4] But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am suggesting that the 2 edges represent the dual aspect of the word of God. The sharpness is the effectiveness of the word.

I know. And I don't really have a problem with expanding upon Biblical principles and analogies. But when it comes to the interpretation of specific versus I believe in being extremely exacting. The slightest errors in interpretation can become amplified into larger ones quickly if they are not caught right away, and your premise was something of a misinterpretation of what the analogy was originally intended to mean.

 

[Episkopos]

I know. And I don't really have a problem with expanding upon Biblical principles and analogies. But when it comes to the interpretation of specific versus I believe in being extremely exacting. The slightest errors in interpretation can become amplified into larger ones quickly if they are not caught right away, and your premise was something of a misinterpretation of what the analogy was originally intended to mean.

...in your opinion...that is.

 

[Hidden In Him]

...in your opinion...that is.

Undoubtably, LoL!

 

[Enoch111]

imo we should prolly examine the term "divided," as we can even detect the diff defs of "split apart" and more like "examined" or "sifted" or something?

Division in Scripture can be both good and bad. Separating the wheat from the chaff is sifting, which is good. However divisions within the Church (the Body of Christ) are bad, since Satan is behind conflicts where none should exist.

 

[lforrest]

Your premise doesn't really resonate with me here, Episkopos. I get no witness about it. Two-edged swords were different than single-edge swords because they could pierce through things as opposed to just hacking away at them from the outside. Hence the words, "sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

The meaning is that it has the capacity to pierce straight to men's hearts.

I am not satisfied yet with any explanation. Sure the word can metaphorically "cut to the core." There are some spiritual truths in that verse though.

Somehow the believer ended up with a born again spirit always in the presence of God Almighty. Yet their soul remains here, undergoing sanctification.

The unbeliever's spirit is not dwelling in the presence of God. Where is it? Here on death row, with their body and soul.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Division in Scripture can be both good and bad. Separating the wheat from the chaff is sifting, which is good. However divisions within the Church (the Body of Christ) are bad, since Satan is behind conflicts where none should exist.

How do you reconcile:

Amos 9:9
[9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Luke 22:31-32
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Isaiah 30:27-31
[27] Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: [28] And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. [29] Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord , to the mighty One of Israel. [30] And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. [31] For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

“...to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity.”

You said: “Separating the wheat from the chaff is sifting, which is good. However divisions within the Church (the Body of Christ) are bad,”

agree the separating the wheat from the chaff is good. Division in church buildings and among manmade doctrines...isn’t this the same sifting with the sieve of vanity which is also good?

Matthew 11:28-30
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am not satisfied yet with any explanation. Sure the word can metaphorically "cut to the core." There are some spiritual truths in that verse though.

Somehow the believer ended up with a born again spirit always in the presence of God Almighty. Yet their soul remains here, undergoing sanctification.

The unbeliever's spirit is not dwelling in the presence of God. Where is it? Here on death row, with their body and soul.

Many on this thread appear to be interpreting the word "spirit" in Hebrews 4:12 as referring to the human spirit. I do not. The word should be capitalized, as it refers to the Holy Spirit, and means that the word of God causes us to distinguish between thoughts and intents that are coming from us, i.e. from our human souls, and those that are coming from God.

This was the point whenever soulishness (literally the word psyche in Greek) is mentioned in comparison with the Spirit, as in Jude 1:19-20, which translates literally as "These [heretics], distinguishing themselves, are soulish, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, edifying yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the Love of God, welcoming the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. (Jude 1:19-21)

 

[Enoch111]

How do you reconcile:...

THIS PERTAINS TO THE BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL
Amos 9:9
[9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. [No genuine believer can be lost]

THIS PERTAINS TO SATANIC ATTACKS AGAINST CHRISTIANS
Luke 22:31-32 [All trials and afflictions are meant to test faith]
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

THIS PERTAINS TO THE TRIBULATION AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION [In the OT "burden" = judgment]
Isaiah 30:27-31
[27] Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: [28] And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. [29] Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord , to the mighty One of Israel. [30] And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. [31] For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

Division in church buildings and among manmade doctrines...isn’t this the same sifting with the sieve of vanity which is also good?

Not "church buildings" but the Church (the Body of Christ). "sifting with the sieve of vanity" would not be applicable, and here's why:
That there should be no schism [DIVISION] in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (1 Cor 12:25).

THIS PERTAINS TO WALKING IN THE SPIRIT
Matthew 11:28-30
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

We are yoked to Christ when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12,13). Then it is "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" and "His commandments are not grievous".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

THIS PERTAINS TO THE BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL
Amos 9:9
[9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. [No genuine believer can be lost]

THIS PERTAINS TO SATANIC ATTACKS AGAINST CHRISTIANS
Luke 22:31-32 [All trials and afflictions are meant to test faith]
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

THIS PERTAINS TO THE TRIBULATION AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION [In the OT "burden" = judgment]
Isaiah 30:27-31
[27] Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: [28] And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. [29] Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord , to the mighty One of Israel. [30] And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. [31] For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.


Not "church buildings" but the Church (the Body of Christ). "sifting with the sieve of vanity" would not be applicable, and here's why:
That there should be no schism [DIVISION] in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (1 Cor 12:25).

THIS PERTAINS TO WALKING IN THE SPIRIT
Matthew 11:28-30
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

We are yoked to Christ when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12,13). Then it is "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" and "His commandments are not grievous".

After conversion there are no divisions within th body. Conversion to what? Is it not conversion to Spirit? Born again of God, from above. so are we not sifted in a sieve of vanity? Paul said turn them over to Satan (the waster) for the destruction of the flesh, so the spirit might be saved.

1 John 2:12-16
[12] I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. [13] I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. [14] I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. [15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Vanity: the lust of the flesh
The lust of the eyes
The pride of life
And is what is to be overcome. Darkness(evil) and Death.

Romans 8:20
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

I still don’t understand how you do the word justice by dividing the body of Christ and verses that are Spiritual: in to Jew or Gentile. —the verses apply to anyone that walks in the light of Christ. take a look at the thread on how only Jews are called to overcome...you see, it is all over the place with every man deciding as man wills. What is lost is that every man is to overcome(in Christ) and one can say that doesn’t apply to me.

1 Corinthians 1:13-15
[13] Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? [14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; [15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

 

[Enoch111]

Born again of God, from above. so are we not sifted in a sieve of vanity?

No. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5:17)

Paul said turn them over to Satan (the waster) for the destruction of the flesh, so the spirit might be saved.

This was the punishment meted to an unrepentant Christian. But his salvation was not at risk.

I still don’t understand how you do the word justice by dividing the body of Christ and verses that are Spiritual: in to Jew or Gentile.

The context should determine the interpretation, and other Scriptures should confirm that. Some Scriptures are for the Jews, others for the Gentiles, and others for the Church of God (the Body of Christ).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5:17)

Enoch111 I think we agree that all is made new in Christ. Where we don’t agree is before one is in Christ. This is the sifting I’m referring to. And as you said this is good because it helps a person come to see Him. I was sifted through vanity. My life was very vain before I came to Christ. What is vain if not the natural ungenerated heart? The Song of Solomon tells us all is vanity before the knowledge of Christ. So, I don’t know what you speak of here or I don’t understand...because it seems every ungenerated heart under that original sin of Adam is sifted before a person comes to know Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:5
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[farouk]

Enoch111 I think we agree that all is made new in Christ. Where we don’t agree is before one is in Christ. This is the sifting I’m referring to. And as you said this is good because it helps a person come to see Him. I was sifted through vanity. My life was very vain before I came to Christ. What is vain if not the natural ungenerated heart? The Song of Solomon tells us all is vanity before the knowledge of Christ. So, I don’t know what you speak of here or I don’t understand...because it seems every ungenerated heart under that original sin of Adam is sifted before a person comes to know Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:5
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

One goes from the vanity of Ecclesiastes to Christ the wisdom of God in the New Testament.

 

[bbyrd009]

The unbeliever's spirit is not dwelling in the presence of God. Where is it? Here on death row, with their body and soul.

so much for all that omni jazz huh

 

[VictoryinJesus]

One goes from the vanity of Ecclesiastes to Christ the wisdom of God in the New Testament.

Ecclesiastes. That’s it! Song of Solomon is a love letter.

 

[farouk]

Ecclesiastes. That’s it! Song of Solomon is a love letter.

Song of Solomon is indeed a rather special book with a character of its own. A lot of ppl see it as about Christ and the church; as a dispensationalist I would see it rather as being about the relationship between Christ and Israel (albeit with many applications to us in the church).

 

[lforrest]

so much for all that omni jazz huh

There is a difference with the indwelling Holy Spirit. The veil was torn for a reason.