The Elect and Predestination - the unfortunate implications

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St. SteVen

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We can't claim that the terms "the Elect" and "predestined" aren't biblical.
But the man-made doctrinal conclusions carry with them some disturbing implications.

Specifically:
1) God chose who he would save and who he would damn.
2) If the Elect were predestined to life, then everyone else was predestined to destruction. (per the standard doctrine)

Let's discuss.

[
 

BarneyFife

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We can't claim that the terms "the Elect" and "predestined" aren't biblical.
But the man-made doctrinal conclusions carry with them some disturbing implications.

Specifically:
1) God chose who he would save and who he would damn.
2) If the Elect were predestined to life, then everyone else was predestined to destruction. (per the standard doctrine)

Let's discuss.

[

So, yeah, let's talk about this fresh, new topic. Maybe if we cover it with water and put in the fridge overnight it'll perk up like celery - lol.

:p
 
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BarneyFife

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Yeah... cut it out. - LOL

How does "the Elect" and "predestination" issue look from your perspective?

[

It looks infinitely complicated to me. It's the old "foreknowledge vs. foreordination" question, and I'm as clueless as to the answer as I was when I first considered it many decades ago.

Folks who can't humble themselves to leave the unknowable with God are bound to stumble over it, I figure.

I'm copping out for the duration. Not expending another single CC of cortisol over the matter.

But I'm happy to discuss the nuances of the little or nothing that I do know about it.

You'll just have to be specific.

:)
 
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St. SteVen

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But I'm happy to discuss the nuances of the little or nothing that I do know about it.

You'll just have to be specific.
My concerns are with the flip side of the choice God made to "elect" and "predestine/preordain" some, while NOT electing or predestining/preordaining others. ???

We can argue that the predestining/preordaining was based on his foreknowledge, but the electing is harder to steer around.

Additionally, we understand that no one can come to God unless He draws them first. Again the pesky question about why some and not others. Or even worse, why only a handful while he condemns everyone else? (the vast majority)

[
 

BarneyFife

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We can argue that the predestining/preordaining was based on his foreknowledge, but the electing is harder to steer around.

Problem is, hyper-Clavinists generally don't make a discernible distinction.

Additionally, we understand that no one can come to God unless He draws them first.

I guess the idea is that many (all?) are called but few are chosen, so to speak. That always seemed kinda backwards to me, but I'm getting used to and even comfortable with that as time passes. The LORD and I have this understanding/inside joke, if you will, that "I don't know jack." It helps me to be still and know that... You get the picture, of course.

An old preacher I really admired by the name of E.E. Cleveland used to say "We-e-ell, you know how the LORD is" whenever He would manifest His awesome power/wisdom in a special way.

Again the pesky question about why some and not others. Or even worse, why only a handful while he condemns everyone else? (the vast majority)

My newly embraced, old-age curmudgeony is making it increasingly difficult for me to even entertain the usual arguments for odds-based atonement. I see the broad/many/narrow/few illustration more as representing the nature of wrothful children and the difficulty of parting with our cherished views. I don't know what could have ever possessed someone to see this as an "us-and-them" model except as they have never struggled with human nature and therefore simply "don't get it."

The whole idea that Christ was one of the "us" before Bethlehem and then cast His lot with the "them" (us-us) seems to up-end the whole notion of elitism, doesn't it?

I confess I'm quite literally losing my patience for people who state their soteriological cases in a dismissive, unyielding way. I'm not happy about it, but there it is. I especially have a problem with millennials and Gen-Xers who feel no need to show even the slightest bit of regard for their elders.

When I listen to someone older than myself offer some wisdom, I'm grateful enough for their going to the trouble of the gesture to be gracious in return unless, of course, they go out of their way to engage in some undignified rhetoric that contributes more to a problem than a solution.

But I've said too much.

:)
 
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St. SteVen

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The LORD and I have this understanding/inside joke, if you will, that "I don't know jack." It helps me to be still and know that... You get the picture, of course.
That's how you know it is God's voice. He talks like a garage mechanic. - LOL

[
 
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St. SteVen

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I confess I'm quite literally losing my patience for people who state their soteriological cases in a dismissive, unyielding way. I'm not happy about it, but there it is. I especially have a problem with millennials and Gen-Xers who feel no need to show even the slightest bit of regard for their elders.
I try to remember what I was like at that age, compared to how I am now. I've matured in some ways and not in others. A previous workmate said that I look young for my age because I act like a three year old. - LOL

1722886145561.jpeg

When I listen to someone older than myself offer some wisdom, I'm grateful enough for their going to the trouble of the gesture to be gracious in return unless, of course, they go out of their way to engage in some undignified rhetoric that contributes more to a problem than a solution.
That's where maturity on your part comes into play. And let's face it, not everyone who is older than we is guaranteed to be more mature. Which can be either irritating or wonderful. One of the old women at my Mom's care facility dyed her hair purple.

[
 

BarneyFife

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And let's face it, not everyone who is older than we is guaranteed to be more mature.

Exactly!

Some of these people have had to suffer much just to become as not-so-wise as they have.

There's something highly respectable about that—especially if they're the slightest bit humble about it.

:)
 
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BarneyFife

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One of the old women at my Mom's care facility dyed her hair purple.

What's wrong with that? The important thing is what she can tell me about the effect the Berlin Blockade, the Bay of Pigs, and the Cuban Mkssle Crisis had on the spirituality of rank-and-file America.

That's right. I'm actually Dan Rather.

:p
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
One of the old women at my Mom's care facility dyed her hair purple.
What's wrong with that?
Nothing, I guess. But my Mom keeps pointing it out. Not sure if she is looking for my approval to do likewise, or what.
I suggested something more stylish. Like a reverse Tulsi Gabbard look. (one black strand on gray)

1722894961470.jpeg

[
 

St. SteVen

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Meanwhile, we have two dudes dukin' it out for Olympic Gold in the Women's Boxing finals?

Kinda puts things into perspective (or not o_O).
Seriously. That has to stop!

Thought I saw a statement from a female competitor complaining about the "male" competitor.
She said, she has "... never been hit so hard."

[
 
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BarneyFife

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Seriously. That has to stop!

Thought I saw a statement from a female competitor complaining about the "male" competitor.
She said, she has "... never been hit so hard."

[

I wanted to be a Blue Angels pilot back in '82 but I had imperfect vision. I guess today you could just identify as 20-20 and the Navy would just have to fork over one of those blue and gold F/A-18 Hornets for you to drive around.

:)
 

FaithWillDo

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We can't claim that the terms "the Elect" and "predestined" aren't biblical.
But the man-made doctrinal conclusions carry with them some disturbing implications.

Specifically:
1) God chose who he would save and who he would damn.
2) If the Elect were predestined to life, then everyone else was predestined to destruction. (per the standard doctrine)

Let's discuss.

[
Dear St. SteVen,
In this age, Christ is bringing in His harvest of First Fruits. They are blessed by God for no other reason than it suits God's purposes. Christ saves them by giving them both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. After the Elect believer is given the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness will be healed so that Christ will spiritually "appear" to them. When Christ does, the Day of the Lord will commence to remove the "chaff" from within the believer. The "chaff" is everything that makes the believer "carnal". After the chaff is removed, the believer will be converted. A converted believer will walk by the Spirit, produce spiritual fruit, follow the commandments of Christ (love God and your neighbor) and perform works of faith. The Elect are few in number.

In the final age, Christ and His Elect will judge the "lost". When they do, they will not omit mercy, faith and justice.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Before the "lost" perish, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will be manifested in them by His free gift of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which will give them faith. With faith and the Spirit, Christ will appear to them and gather the newly born child of God to heaven. The child of the devil will remain under judgment until he is destroyed. This satisfies justice.

In the end, all mankind will be "born again" and made into a new creation. Mankind (children of the devil) will then cease to exist (John 3:18, already condemned).

Paul was asked about the fairness of "election" in the verses below:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob (Elect, children of God) have I loved, but Esau (non-Elect, children of the devil) have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 or he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

This same truth is taught by the parable of the Prodigal Son. The prodigal son represents the Elect who will be the "heir" (signified by his father giving him the ring and robe).

The brother (represents the "many" who are not chosen) will remain in the field "working" (represents he is approaching Christ by his works rather than solely by faith) and will refuse to enter His Father's house (Kingdom of Heaven). This happens only because the brother was given the Early Rain of the Spirit (his early portion of the inheritance) and remained unconverted. He simply was not chosen to be the heir - but He will receive salvation (his portion) with the unbelievers at the end of the final age (Luke 12:46).

Do you see God's ways as being unfair? God forbid.

God's ways have a purpose which is for mankind's benefit. His ways will experientially teach mankind that God alone provides for all our needs and He does so because of His mercy (Verse 16). For mankind to be able to trust God, we must realize that even our faith must be given to us. Faith is a gift from God and does not come from within ourselves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When Christ is ready to call an unbeliever out from the world to be a saint, Christ will freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit which will give the individual a "measure of faith".

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man ("that is among you"/the church) the measure of faith.

But since their faith was given in "measure" (a small amount), it needs to be increased so that the believer will completely stop trying to add their own works to it. When a believer mixes their own works with faith, they have "fallen away" and have lost their salvation.

Mixing works with faith is what this scripture is teaching below:

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm (mixing works with faith), and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

To give an Elect believer the full amount of faith that Christ requires them to have, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain of the Spirit will come with "power" and will give the believer the faith they need to make Christ's pathway straight for Him to "appear" unto their salvation.

2Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased (when they are given the Latter Rain), that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

Note: The Corinthian church had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Note:
The first time Christ appears to an individual is when He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Because the Early Rain does not heal the person's spiritual blindness, Christ will only appear to them "in the flesh" (carnally/Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2).

In this age, only the Elect are given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. The "many" (who are called to be a saints but not chosen) will only be given the Early Rain of the Spirit. With only a measure of faith, Christ's pathway will not be made straight for Him to "appear" and convert them. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers through no fault of their own.

Continuing in Rom 9 where I left off above:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Joe
 
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