The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Zao is life]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

I take 1 Cor.15:24 the same as you, but from a completely different angle:-

"And He said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knows not how. For the earth brings out fruit of itself, first the blade, then [eîta] the ear, then [eîta] the full grain in the ear. But when the fruit has been brought out, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."-- Mark 4:26-29

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward [épeita] they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [eîta] comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1 Cor.15:22-26.

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected. But now [nŷn] we do not see all things having been put under him." -- Hebrews 2:8

How can all enemies already be under His feet now, if He must reign UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy to be defeated is death (to be cast in the lake of fire with hades, after Satan has been cast into it, where the beast and false prophet are), and it is written that this will occur at the time of the GWT?

Does "all things being put under His feet" not include death being put under His feet? Why does Hebrews 2:8 say that now [nŷn] we do not see all things having been put under him?

Note how that same word [nŷn] is used when Jesus said the following:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this the world [o kósmos]. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews.

But now [nŷn] My kingdom is not from here." -- John 18:36

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this the world [o kósmos] have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." -- Rev.11:15.

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected. But now [nŷn] we do not see all things having been put under him." -- Hebrews 2:8

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward [épeita] they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [eîta] comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1 Cor.15:22-26.

[Strongs Greek] 03568
νῦν nŷn, noon
a primary particle of present time;
"now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time).​

 

[Davidpt]

How can all enemies already be under His feet now, if He must reign UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy to be defeated is death (to be cast in the lake of fire with hades, after Satan has been cast into it, where the beast and false prophet are), and it is written that this will occur at the time of the GWT?

The way I tend to reason some of this, all enemies are already being put under His feet, as in on ongoing endeavor that initially got underway 2000 years ago, and continues to be an ongoing endeavor even once He has returned, and that it will take another thousand years, plus a little season, then a great white throne judgment, when all enemies will have been put under His feet entirely. IOW, no more enemies after this, ever.

And the fact the end can't come until after the great white throne judgment has concluded, interpreters, such as Amils, are flat out mistaken if they are insisting that the end per 1 Cor 15:24 meant, that this occurs the very same day He returns.

Except it can't occur the same day He returns no matter how you want to look at it, the fact it is impossible to fit the great white throne judgment into a single day or less. One can't argue that this judgment takes place outside of time if they are already arguing that John 12:48 will be involving this same judgment. A last day only makes sense when clocks are still recording time. There are no clocks recording time outside of time. Or at least you wouldn't think so since it makes no sense.

Note how that same word [nŷn] is used when Jesus said the following:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this the world [o kósmos]. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews.

But now [nŷn] My kingdom is not from here." -- John 18:36

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this the world [o kósmos] have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." -- Rev.11:15.

Great point. That makes perfect sense the way you are connecting that like this. IMO, once we are in the time of the 7th trumpet, it eventually leads to what is recorded in Zechariah 14:6-11, and Zechariah 14:16-21. And the fact some might initially refuse to come up, it is not hard to envision why there would be this rebellion after the thousand years. You of course have a different take on a lot of that altogether if I recall correctly, while I tend to think Zechariah 14:16-19, Isaiah 60:12, to name a few, help explain the rebellion after the thousand years.

 

[quietthinker]

How can the end meant not occur within measurable time? IOW, how can outside of time have an end to it? How does that make sense? Isn't that the only other option? That if the end meant does not occur within measurable time, it therefore occurs outside of time?

'The end' comes in God's time. Of course our time is impacted. Jesus first coming is described as 'when the fulness of time had come...' Galatians 4:4 .......and so in like manner, when the fulness of time is come, Jesus will again enter Earth's time visible to all.

 

[Davidpt]

'The end' comes in God's time. Of course our time is impacted. Jesus first coming is described as 'when the fulness of time had come...' Galatians 4:4 .......and so in like manner, when the fulness of time is come, Jesus will again enter Earth's time visible to all.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. But even so, first we are told this in 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then we are told this.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

What's in question is this. Once this occurs---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming---when is this then meaning----Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father?

What we do know is this. The end can't come until he hath put all enemies under his feet. And that the last enemy death has been destroyed. Until then, He must reign in the meantime.

Regardless whether Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning in the end of this age or a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it's apparent all enemies haven't been put under His feet before or during the thousand years if there are still enemies following the thousand years. It's also apparent that death hasn't been destroyed yet if there is still death after the thousand years, Revelation 20:9, Revelation 20:11-15.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Then there is still this verse to factor in. It has to fit somewhere and that it is obviously meaning when clocks are still recording time. This last day can't be a 24 hour day though if it is involving the great white throne judgment eventually.

 

[quietthinker]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. But even so, first we are told this in 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then we are told this.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

What's in question is this. Once this occurs---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming---when is this then meaning----Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father?

What we do know is this. The end can't come until he hath put all enemies under his feet. And that the last enemy death has been destroyed. Until then, He must reign in the meantime.

Regardless whether Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning in the end of this age or a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it's apparent all enemies haven't been put under His feet before or during the thousand years if there are still enemies following the thousand years. It's also apparent that death hasn't been destroyed yet if there is still death after the thousand years, Revelation 20:9, Revelation 20:11-15.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Then there is still this verse to factor in. It has to fit somewhere and that it is obviously meaning when clocks are still recording time. This last day can't be a 24 hour day though if it is involving the great white throne judgment eventually.

* My reply here is an attempt to understand the question about the expression 'then shall the end come' by laying out a chronology as I understand it.

An accurate or not interpretation of 'then shall the end come' depends on how one understands several things.
In my view this is how things pan out:- Please bear with me......

1. Jesus returns in the clouds for all to see.

2. His people (those the grave or still alive) will be resurrected, transformed and translated to meet him in the air....to go where? I think to Heaven. In a certain sense one could say this is the end, (at least the end of the system on Earth as we know it) however, 'events' continue....both in heaven and on Earth.

3. The Earth is desolate of humans (destroyed by the brightness of his coming) and also destroyed environmentally.

4. All the wicked are dead and Satan and his angels are bound by circumstances to this Earth for a 1000 yrs to contemplate the ruin their 'style' has caused. (the whole intelligent Universe has witnessed his shenanigans in cosmic time and there is no place for him.....except the kingdom (earth) which he has ruined)

5. During this time God's people from all ages, as I said, are in heaven a 1000 yrs doing things (not discussed)

6. After the 1000 yrs the New Jerusalem with God's people in it will come down from Heaven to Earth to a place prepared for it.

7. The wicked dead will be resurrected (billions upon billions from all ages...the second resurrection....they will come out of the graves in the same condition they entered it ie, at enmity with God). Satan will now have human subjects again to temp and deceive. My guess is he will persuade them it was he who resurrected them by his power and that he is the rightful Sovereign of the glittering City before them.

8. He will rally them (Gog and Magog, figuratively) to attack in the vain hope of capturing the prize before them (New Jerusalem) again, my guess will be with high tech weapons (nuclear? or advanced?)

At this juncture we must ask, if the wicked are already dead why resurrect them only to be killed again....why not just leave them dead? Could it be that those who have lived in bygone ages who never had an understanding of the character of God as the modern world will have before the return of Jesus in the clouds. Will they be given an intelligent objective opportunity to weigh their options? ...to whom they will consciously and intelligently pay allegiance (the gates are not closed) .... (I must say, that given an opportunity does not mean they will take it.....which ultimately they wont.....God however will be exonerated)

9. The New Jerusalem will be attacked (the Earth will swarm with resurrected dead numbered as the sand of the sea but the New Jerusalem will be shielded by God. The firepower directed at the City will 'bounce back' so to speak and destroy the wicked, enveloping the Earth in a sheet of flame....(recorded as 'fire from God out of Heaven') (Lake of Fire)
10. Satan and his angels will also come to a miserable end

Evil / Death and its perpetrators are totally destroyed by their own hand.

'THE END' has finally come

* if scriptures are required to support the above view (apart from my guesses) I will gladly supply them as best I can.*

 

[Hobie]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

Christ will bring it already done, Mathew 16:27, only during the thousand years in heaven will the saints look as the Great White Throne judgement is brought before them, as a jury in a sense, to show that Gods judgements are true, and all the universe can see He is just.

 

[Freedm]

So technically we don't exist? We just think we exist in the mind of God?

Only God exists at the end of this verse:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Technically Jesus does not even exist at that point if God is all in all. The Lamb is mentioned in the NHNE. And the Lamb was mentioned as existing before this current creation, that you claim does not currently exist. The Lamb is a metaphorical term. Evidently metaphors can exist outside of non existing realities.

Seems Jesus will not exist at the end of His reign as the physical Jesus will no longer be necessary in any future realities. Nor does this seem like the reality in Revelation 21, but I am sure you can explain that reality away as well as explaining this reality away, 2,000 years ago. It is you who suggest even people ceased to exist at one point in time.

I suppose you can explain away Hebrews 11 while you are at it. Faith only exists once it is realized.

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen."

It seems, even if we can see reality, then that means to you it still does not exist. Or should not exist according to your interpretation. It certainly takes faith to declare nothing has existed since 70AD. I suppose when 70AD rolls around we will know?

This is the most bizarre understanding of scripture I have ever heard. I don't know where you're getting this stuff from.

 

[Freedm]

Learn what from Amills??? That's such an ignorant statement you make, simply because all one need do is STUDY God's Word and keep HIS Word as written to know the doctrines of men called Amillennialism do NOT align with God's Word!

So you are funny, saying that someone like me who RECOGNIZES the Amill fake doctrine of men you're on might learn something from it!

You are so funny, claiming that one only needs to study to know the truth, as if Amils haven't studied. If studying was all it took, then we would all agree, would we not?

 

[Freedm]

Let me ask some of this another way. Keeping in mind the title of this thread and the OP. Whenever Christ returns, whatever moment of the day that ends up being, do some of you think the clocks stop working, as in 'time' is something that can no longer be measured? Why this might matter, some of us tend to think there are a thousand years to fulfill when Christ returns, meaning Revelation 20:1-6. Obviously, no matter how you look at it, the fact it involves years, it therefore involves measurable time.

Even Amil's version of the thousand years involves measurable time.

Will there no longer be night and day ever again the moment Christ returns?
I think the OT already answers that question, though.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night , which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me , saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD .

Even if one thinks they can successfully argue against verse 36 somehow, how do they figure they are going to do the same with verse 37 as well?

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Here we are once again, the end in question. When does this 'end' come in relation to when Christ initially returns? Does it come during measurable time, or outside of measurable time? Keeping in mind Jeremiah 31:35-37 above, since it appears to me that these ordinances will never depart from Him ever, unless someone wants to propose something utterly preposterous, that heaven above can actually be measured, when even God Himself is unable to measure it. After all, one can't measure something that is endless. Not even God can.

It's an interesting question for sure.

My two cents: "The end" that Paul was speaking of in 1 Corinthians 15, is unfortunately not put into context or relation, as in "the end of what?". For that reason, I used to take this quite literally as "the end", meaning the end of everything, but I now understand it differently. I now realize he was speaking about the end of the age, as in, the end of the time of the law, the end of darkness, the end of the old covenant, the end of sin and the end of death. All of that happened 2000 years ago, in my opinion, so time did not stop.

Having said all of that, scripture doesn't really tell us anything about the end of our current age, so I've often wondered if there even will be any end at all. I'm guessing no. The earth abides forever, which means times does as well.

 

[Freedm]

How can the end meant not occur within measurable time? IOW, how can outside of time have an end to it? How does that make sense? Isn't that the only other option? That if the end meant does not occur within measurable time, it therefore occurs outside of time?

Unless "the end" refers to the end of time?

 

[Davidpt]

* My reply here is an attempt to understand the question about the expression 'then shall the end come' by laying out a chronology as I understand it.

An accurate or not interpretation of 'then shall the end come' depends on how one understands several things.
In my view this is how things pan out:- Please bear with me......

1. Jesus returns in the clouds for all to see.

2. His people (those the grave or still alive) will be resurrected, transformed and translated to meet him in the air....to go where? I think to Heaven. In a certain sense one could say this is the end, (at least the end of the system on Earth as we know it) however, 'events' continue....both in heaven and on Earth.

3. The Earth is desolate of humans (destroyed by the brightness of his coming) and also destroyed environmentally.

4. All the wicked are dead and Satan and his angels are bound by circumstances to this Earth for a 1000 yrs to contemplate the ruin their 'style' has caused. (the whole intelligent Universe has witnessed his shenanigans in cosmic time and there is no place for him.....except the kingdom (earth) which he has ruined)

5. During this time God's people from all ages, as I said, are in heaven a 1000 yrs doing things (not discussed)

6. After the 1000 yrs the New Jerusalem with God's people in it will come down from Heaven to Earth to a place prepared for it.

7. The wicked dead will be resurrected (billions upon billions from all ages...the second resurrection....they will come out of the graves in the same condition they entered it ie, at enmity with God). Satan will now have human subjects again to temp and deceive. My guess is he will persuade them it was he who resurrected them by his power and that he is the rightful Sovereign of the glittering City before them.

8. He will rally them (Gog and Magog, figuratively) to attack in the vain hope of capturing the prize before them (New Jerusalem) again, my guess will be with high tech weapons (nuclear? or advanced?)

At this juncture we must ask, if the wicked are already dead why resurrect them only to be killed again....why not just leave them dead? Could it be that those who have lived in bygone ages who never had an understanding of the character of God as the modern world will have before the return of Jesus in the clouds. Will they be given an intelligent objective opportunity to weigh their options? ...to whom they will consciously and intelligently pay allegiance (the gates are not closed) .... (I must say, that given an opportunity does not mean they will take it.....which ultimately they wont.....God however will be exonerated)

9. The New Jerusalem will be attacked (the Earth will swarm with resurrected dead numbered as the sand of the sea but will be shielded by God. The firepower directed at the City will 'bounce back' so to speak and destroy the wicked, enveloping the Earth in a sheet of flame....(recorded as 'fire from God out of Heaven') (Lake of Fire)
10. Satan and his angels will also come to a miserable end

Evil / Death and its perpetrators are totally destroyed by their own hand.

'THE END' has finally come

* if scriptures are required to support the above view (apart from my guesses) I will gladly supply them as best I can.*

IOW, you are a SDA. But I should have realized that from your sig since I know who EGW is meaning. It apparently went over my head at the time. I have nothing against SDAs. Lot of things I tend to agree with SDAs about. I don't agree with the SDA interpretation of the millennium, though. But at least SDAs are Premils, where we at least have that in common.

In my view though I am Premil, I tend to think the NJ comes down at the beginning of the thousand years and that it involves Zechariah 14:16-19 for one. Most Premils do not agree the NJ is on the earth during the thousand years, yet there are some Premils that do agree.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Here we are told that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This connects the Lamb's wife with the NJ(new Jerusalem)

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

When is a bride generally adorned for her husband? Wouldn't it be when this is true----and his wife hath made herself ready(Revelation 19:7)? Have you ever heard of a wife making herself ready but then not being adorned for her husband until a long time later in the future? Keeping in mind that if the wife has already made herself ready at the time of the 2nd coming but is not adorned for her husband until a thousand years later, that this doesn't make logical sense. Therefore, the time frame Revelation 21:1-2 is involving has to be the same time frame Revelation 19:7 is involving.

 

[quietthinker]

IOW, you are a SDA. But I should have realized that from your sig since I know who EGW is meaning. It apparently went over my head at the time. I have nothing against SDAs. Lot of things I tend to agree with SDAs about. I don't agree with the SDA interpretation of the millennium, though. But at least SDAs are Premils, where we at least have that in common.

In my view though I am Premil, I tend to think the NJ comes down at the beginning of the thousand years and that it involves Zechariah 14:16-19 for one. Most Premils do not agree the NJ is on the earth during the thousand years, yet there are some Premils that do agree.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Here we are told that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This connects the Lamb's wife with the NJ(new Jerusalem)

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

When is a bride generally adorned for her husband? Wouldn't it be when this is true----and his wife hath made herself ready(Revelation 19:7)? Have you ever heard of a wife making herself ready but then not being adorned for her husband until a long time later in the future? Keeping in mind that if the wife has already made herself ready at the time of the 2nd coming but is not adorned for her husband until a thousand years later, that this doesn't make logical sense. Therefore, the time frame Revelation 21:1-2 is involving has to be the same time frame Revelation 19:7 is involving.

Thanks for the reply, however for the purpose of staying on track, how does this address the matter of 'then come the end'?
* by the way, I'm not SDA

 

[ewq1938]

9. The New Jerusalem will be attacked (the Earth will swarm with resurrected dead numbered as the sand of the sea but the New Jerusalem will be shielded by God. The firepower directed at the City will 'bounce back' so to speak

I'm glad God thought about giving the city a shield because apparently his fire canon will aim badly and shoot at the wrong target. Oh, it's just regular Jerusalem not NJ. That doesn't come out of heaven until after the GWTJ is over.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm glad God thought about giving the city a shield because apparently his fire canon will aim badly and shoot at the wrong target. Oh, it's just regular Jerusalem not NJ. That doesn't come out of heaven until after the GWTJ is over.

Jesus came to this Earth representing the Father, full of grace and truth..... 'If you have seen me, you seen the Father', Jesus told his mates. Do you think Jesus worked a fire cannon?

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus came to this Earth representing the Father, full of grace and truth..... 'If you have seen me, you seen the Father', Jesus told his mates. Do you think Jesus worked a fire cannon?

You said God shot fire at the city but there was a shield that essentially shot the fire away and killed the enemy. That isn't found in the bible.

 

[quietthinker]

You said God shot fire at the city but there was a shield that essentially shot the fire away and killed the enemy. That isn't found in the bible.

You need to read it again ewq. You have misread.

 

[Davy]

You are so funny, claiming that one only needs to study to know the truth, as if Amils haven't studied. If studying was all it took, then we would all agree, would we not?

Amills study alright, they study doctrines from Gnosticism. That is who started the false doctrine of Amillennialism in the 2nd century A.D.

 

[Davy]

Look at this brethren in Christ who wonder about men's false doctrine of Amillennialism:

1. Amill believes that on the day of Christ's future return, all the wicked are destroyed.

Bible FACT: Zechariah 14 reveals at Christ's return, the leftovers who came up against Jerusalem will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the feast of tabernacles. Isaiah 24 reveals the kings of the earth at Christ's return will be cast into Satan's pit prison and after many days (the "thousand years" of Rev.20) will be visited.

2. Amill believes that Jesus is presently reigning from Heaven at the right hand of The Father.

Bible FACT: per Matthew 25:31, at Jesus' future return is when He will sit upon His throne of glory inherited from His father David, and begin His prophesied reign over the earth (see Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet). The throne of David, which per Luke 1:32 Jesus is to inherit, is an EARTHLY THRONE, not a Heavenly one.


3. Amill wrongly believes the Millennium began with Christ's resurrection.

Bible FACT: Revelation 20 states that those of the "first resurrection" are the saints that go through the "great tribulation" at the end of this world and overcome in Christ Jesus, which points to their NOT HAVING REIGNED ON EARTH, but instead having been PERSECUTED BY SATAN'S HOST during the "great tribulation". Their 'resurrection' is shown to occur on the day of Christ's FUTURE RETURN, which is WHEN those saints will REIGN WITH JESUS, and not before. This means that "first resurrection" is still yet future to us.


4. Amill wrongly believes the 'resurrection' written of for the time of Christ's future return (a la 1 Thessalonians 4), happened on the day of Christ's resurrection.

Bible FACT: Per John 5:28-29, Jesus showed both the "resurrection of life" AND the "resurrection of damnation" will occur on the final day of this world, when they shall hear His voice, and come forth out of their graves. In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul showed at the "last trump", meaning the final 7th Trumpet, the dead in Christ will be raised, which is the future resurrection. In 2 Timothy 2:17-18, Apostle Paul rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus for saying that the resurrection is past already, which is the actual idea Amills are pushing since by that they are teaching 1 Thess.4:13-17 already happened back at Jesus' resurrection.


5. Amill wrongly believes when Peter at Pentecost quoted from Joel 2:28-32, that it meant that Joel 2 Scripture was happening right then in the days of the Apostles.

Bible FACT: The Joel 2:28-32 Scripture which Peter quoted on Pentecost in reality involves the time at the very END, immediately prior to the Day of The Lord, which is the day of Jesus' future return. This is why that Joel 2:31 Scripture points to the "day of the Lord".

Per Mark 13:9-13 Jesus warned for the END that some brethren will be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a TESTIMONY for Him, and to not premeditate what one will say in that 'hour', because it will be The Holy Spirit speaking, (i.e., the cloven tongue of Pentecost). Thus Peter quoting from Joel 2 at Pentecost was for an ENSAMPLE of a major event that's to happen at the END of this world involving the future TESTIMONY for Jesus by the cloven tongue!


6. Amill wrongly believes Christ's Kingdom is just a 'spiritual' kingdom and will not be a literal physical kingdom. This is how they try to justify the evil and wickedness that exists still today 2,000 years after Christ's death and resurrection as representing His Kingdom, because it is a spiritual kingdom only.

Bible FACT: When Jesus said His Kingdom is not of 'this' world, He did not mean His Kingdom would never 'literally' manifest physically upon this earth. Per Zechariah 14, at His future return, His feet are to literally touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, bringing all His saints with Him, and that Mount will split in two. And there He will begin His future reign over all the nations, including the leftovers that came up against Jerusalem. That and much more is written in Zechariah 14, and it is LITERALLY to happen upon this earth.

Likewise, when Jesus said the Kingdom of God is "within you" per Luke 17:21, He was referring to something that Amills cannot understand, because they only dwell upon their 'flesh', and obviously do not understand Heavenly order things per God's written Word. This earthly dimension we live in today is NOT the only dimension of reality. The Heavenly dimension exists too, and it is where God and the angels dwell, even where Satan and hell exists.

God's Kingdom to come, right now, IS IN HEAVEN, in that OTHER DIMENSION where God and His Christ is. Those in Christ still alive on earth are already connected to it, 'in spirit' (i.e., our spirit inside our flesh connected to the Jerusalem that is above, Gal.4:26; Phil.3:20). But as written, that Heavenly Order of God's Kingdom will come back... to this earth in the future world to come, as written. Even the last verse of Ezekiel 48 declares the name of the future Holy City on earth will be known as, "The LORD is there", meaning right here, UPON THIS EARTH! Genesis 2 reveals God's Garden of Eden (which is where He abides), was once upon this earth, literally, and God's River flowed out of His Garden to feed 4 other rivers upon this earth.

Those things the Amills do not understand, as they are following the likes of Simon Magus, and Origen who was finally excommunicated because he tended to make everything in God's Word into an allegory, as did Marcion, and Cerinthus (a Gnostic), Clement of Alexandria, also like Origen heavily allegorized The Bible being influenced by Neo-Platonism and Gnosticism. Augustine then took up the Amill robe, and some of the Reformers also did. Once it got rolling, the lie simply became an accepted 'tradition'.

 

[Davidpt]

Amills study alright, they study doctrines from Gnosticism. That is who started the false doctrine of Amillennialism in the 2nd century A.D.

What they don't seem to study, is reality. In the real world satanic deception is still taking place and has never stopped taking place. Which seems rather bizarre if satan is supposed to be in the pit, which means he is unable to deceive the nations at the time. Yet, according to reality, nations are still being deceived as we speak. When satan is actually in the pit in the future, not one nation upon the earth will be being deceived by him. It's pretty simple. Prior to the thousand years satan is deceiving nations. During the thousand years he is no longer deceiving nations. After the thousand years he is once again deceiving nations. That's what the Bible teaches. Amils contradict that since their interpretation, when comparing to reality, has him still deceiving nations when he is not even supposed to be deceiving nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

Learn what from Amills??? That's such an ignorant statement you make, simply because all one need do is STUDY God's Word and keep HIS Word as written to know the doctrines of men called Amillennialism do NOT align with God's Word!

Well, Amillennialists would say the exact same thing regarding Premillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Preterists. In the end, Freedm is right; there's only ~ at least regarding the millennium ~ disagreement between us... and no intention by any one of the four not to "keep His Word as written" or to... not align with God's Word. So, regarding what you say here... right back atcha, my friend. I'd say all of us are "keeping John's prophecy, because we believe Christ Jesus is coming back, and the final Judgment will happen, and the new heaven and new earth will be a reality, and

So you are funny, saying that someone like me who RECOGNIZES the Amill fake doctrine of men you're on might learn something from it!

Well... rather than "recognizes'... holds that position.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.