The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[PinSeeker]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

Hey, David, if God is God ~ and of course He is ~ I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you, but if God spoke the entire universe into existence pretty much instantaneously, then why would you say there's "no way... the great white throne judgment (could) be involving just 24 hours or less"? I mean, how could you really possibly say that? This is really a rhetorical question, but how long would you think it would have to take? And, I'm being a little facetious here ~ just a little bit... ~ but how long does it take you to read Matthew 25:31-46?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

What they don't seem to study, is reality. In the real world satanic deception is still taking place and has never stopped taking place. Which seems rather bizarre if satan is supposed to be in the pit, which means he is unable to deceive the nations at the time. Yet, according to reality, nations are still being deceived as we speak. When satan is actually in the pit in the future, not one nation upon the earth will be being deceived by him. It's pretty simple. Prior to the thousand years satan is deceiving nations. During the thousand years he is no longer deceiving nations. After the thousand years he is once again deceiving nations. That's what the Bible teaches. Amils contradict that since their interpretation, when comparing to reality, has him still deceiving nations when he is not even supposed to be deceiving nations.

Yep.
See 1 Peter 5:8, where he said Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. If Satan was already bound at the cross, then he would not be able to do that still.

The Amill doctrine is from Satan, I have no doubt about that. One of the wrong things it does is promotes trust and belief in this 'present' world of evil, which Satan has been given control over. Apostle Peter said this present world is reserved unto destruction by fire (2 Peter 3). This is why Lord Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this present world, simply because this world is ordained by God to perish. Even the new heavens and a new earth won't come until after Satan, hell, and death are destroyed, as written in Rev.20.

When Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, many believers back then began to think His Kingdom had come then, but seeing all the wickedness still going on, and because of some of the spiritual ideas He said, as also Apostle Paul used, those believers began to think His Kingdom was only ever meant in the 'spiritual sense' only. That kind of thinking then began justifying the wicked of this world in thinking like, "Well, they're doing wickedness now, but they will eventually convert to Jesus Christ and be saved", all before Lord Jesus returns. That kind of idea then led to men's false doctrine of Universalism. So junk doctrines from the devil simply build on top of each other to create new junk doctrines. This is why it is so important to stick to what God's Word says as written, and pray that The Holy Spirit will help one distinguish between 'literal' parts of God's Word vs. expression, symbols, and analogy that God also uses in His Word.

 

[PinSeeker]

What they don't seem to study, is reality.

Come on, my friend. Come on.

... In the real world satanic deception is still taking place and has never stopped taking place. Which seems rather bizarre if satan is supposed to be in the pit, which means he is unable to deceive the nations at the time.

David, Before Jesus's coming, Satan most certainly "deceived the nations"... He was able to prevent the spread of the Gospel beyond the nation of Israel (which is a people, not a land mass). Since Jesus's coming, and for sure since the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, he is absolutely unable to do that.

Yet, according to reality, nations are still being deceived as we speak.

No, he is absolutely unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel to all nations. Thus Jesus's mandate to His disciples ~ including all of us ~ that we "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that He has commanded us" (Matthew 28:19-20).

When satan is actually in the pit in the future, not one nation upon the earth will be being deceived by him. It's pretty simple.

Well, it is pretty simple. But remember what Jesus Himself says in Matthew 12... "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house..." Jesus has most certainly entered Satan's house, so to speak, and the plundering of Satan's "goods" continues to this day... and will, until, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, "all of Israel..." ~ which includes both Jew and Gentile, God's elect, consisting of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ "...is saved."

Prior to the thousand years satan is deceiving nations.

Individuals. Not nations. He is bound and sealed from deceiving the nations ~ again, preventing the spread of the Gospel. He will be loosed for a little while when Israel is complete, though, as John says in Revelation 20.

During the thousand years he is no longer deceiving nations.

Agreed.

After the thousand years he is once again deceiving nations.

Agreed... or at least attempting to. At that time, Israel will be complete, and the end will be very close at hand, even to us.

That's what the Bible teaches.

Well, yes...

Amils contradict that since their interpretation, when comparing to reality, has him still deceiving nations when he is not even supposed to be deceiving nations.

He's not deceiving the nations; He cannot. See above.

It's a big point of disagreement, for sure, but nothing to be "at each other" over. Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Davidpt]

1. Amill believes that on the day of Christ's future return, all the wicked are destroyed.

Bible FACT: Zechariah 14 reveals at Christ's return, the leftovers who came up against Jerusalem will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the feast of tabernacles. Isaiah 24 reveals the kings of the earth at Christ's return will be cast into Satan's pit prison and after many days (the "thousand years" of Rev.20) will be visited.


6. Amill wrongly believes Christ's Kingdom is just a 'spiritual' kingdom and will not be a literal physical kingdom. This is how they try to justify the evil and wickedness that exists still today 2,000 years after Christ's death and resurrection as representing His Kingdom, because it is a spiritual kingdom only.

Bible FACT: When Jesus said His Kingdom is not of 'this' world, He did not mean His Kingdom would never 'literally' manifest physically upon this earth. Per Zechariah 14, at His future return, His feet are to literally touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, bringing all His saints with Him, and that Mount will split in two. And there He will begin His future reign over all the nations, including the leftovers that came up against Jerusalem. That and much more is written in Zechariah 14, and it is LITERALLY to happen upon this earth.

These are probably your strongest points against Amil, the fact that it is plainly obvious to a lot of us that verse 4 and 5 involve Christ's bodily return in the end of this age, and that verses 16-19 are meaning post His return. And that these in verses 16-19 are not meaning the saved who put on bodily immortality during the 2nd coming if they can be punished for not complying with what is being commanded of them. Those verses involve being ruled over with a rod of iron. Wonder where these in verses 16-19 come from if Amils insist there are no mortal survivors once the 2nd coming occurs? Did Zechariah lie to us or something?

 

[Davidpt]

Well, it is pretty simple. But remember what Jesus Himself says in Matthew 12... "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house..." Jesus has most certainly entered Satan's house, so to speak, and the plundering of Satan's "goods" continues to this day... and will, until, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, "all of Israel..." ~ which includes both Jew and Gentile, God's elect, consisting of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ "...is saved."

A cpl of things about this. For one, Amils typically have satan bound at the cross or soon thereafter, yet Jesus was already doing these things before Amil even has satan bound. And another thing, once satan is bound he stays bound the entire thousand years. So in what way would what you bring up here have any relevance one way or the other to his thousand year binding?

Something I have noted is this. In the example you submitted, something is being cast out of something. In Revelation 20:1-3, the opposite is happening, something is being cast into something. IOW, these passages are unrelated.

 

[Davidpt]

Individuals. Not nations. He is bound and sealed from deceiving the nations ~ again, preventing the spread of the Gospel. He will be loosed for a little while when Israel is complete, though, as John says in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Depending on how one might look at this, one way would be ludricrous, the other way wouldn't be.

The ludicrous way. And shall go out to deceive the nations, the number of nations is as the sand of the sea.

Not ludicrous. And shall go out to deceive the nations, the number of people living in them is as the sand of the sea.


What about Jews then? If you are interpreting nations to be meaning individual Gentiles, well Jews are not Gentiles are they? Where do Jews fit in your theology? After all, Jews can be saved just as well as Gentiles can be saved, can't they?

 

[PinSeeker]

These are probably your strongest points against Amil,

They're not strong at all, David. They're not invalid concerns, but the points themselves are mischaracterizations. The only question, really, is whether the mischaracterizations are inadvertent or purposeful.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Freedm]

Amills study alright, they study doctrines from Gnosticism. That is who started the false doctrine of Amillennialism in the 2nd century A.D.

Amils study the Bible, just like you. You must know that there are often multiple different ways to understand a scripture. You must know that. Why do you disparage your brothers because they understand it slightly differently than you do? They've done nothing wrong. They're just trying to understand things, the same as you.

 

[PinSeeker]

A cpl of things about this. For one, Amils typically have satan bound at the cross or soon thereafter, yet Jesus was already doing these things before Amil even has satan bound.

That's a fair point; I would just say that Jesus was demonstrating that these things are possible, and that we are to follow after Him. But you will agree, I'm sure, that Jesus did not actually give the command to go and disciple the nations until after he had been resurrected, and the coming of the Holy Spirit to the disciples at Pentecost in Acts 2 occurred only 40 days after His ascension in Acts 1. The disciples and the early church began evangelizing immediately after that. Even if we mark it from the beginning of Jesus's earthly ministry to Pentecost, that's only a time span of three years... or even from His birth by Mary, so a time span of 33 years. In any case... not really anything to quibble about. Generally speaking, The coming of Jesus bound Satan from deceiving the nations. Trying to pinpoint an exact moment is... well, going a little overboard. Satan is bound, and the Gospel goes forth to all nations, and the number of people being born again of the Spirit and coming to Christ, people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, is increasing at a great rate, and Satan can't do a thing to stop it from happening. Satan is bound, and Jesus is "plundering his house."

And another thing, once satan is bound he stays bound the entire thousand years. So in what way would what you bring up here have any relevance one way or the other to his thousand year binding?

Well, I guess we have to address what's meant by the "thousand years," the "millennium," as John propagates those concepts in Revelation 20. And maybe we even have to examine "thousand" as it appears in the Bible and whether in Revelation 20 it is actually a hard number or not. Context always determines that. In the case of Revelation 20, the thousand is in the context of completeness, of fullness, and not of a hard number, and that same context surrounds different numbers throughout Scripture.

Something I have noted is this. In the example you submitted, something is being cast out of something. In Revelation 20:1-3, the opposite is happening, something is being cast into something. IOW, these passages are unrelated.

I really am not sure what you're talking about here; you'll have to be more explicit. In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is rendered utterly powerless to do anything to deceive the nations. In this way, he is bound and sealed from doing so.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Depending on how one might look at this, one way would be ludricrous, the other way wouldn't be.

The ludicrous way. And shall go out to deceive the nations, the number of nations is as the sand of the sea.

Not ludicrous. And shall go out to deceive the nations, the number of people living in them is as the sand of the sea.

Right, I like the "not ludicrous" option... I'm really not sure of what you're taking issue with, David, but I would just say that in both Ezekiel and Revelation and elsewhere, when we see "nations," we should not think of nation-states or physical countries. We can get further into that, but I think that should be sufficient.

What about Jews then? If you are interpreting nations to be meaning individual Gentiles, well Jews are not Gentiles are they? Where do Jews fit in your theology? After all, Jews can be saved just as well as Gentiles can be saved, can't they?

Ah, well, here it is. Read what Paul says about who Jews are in Romans 2:28-29 and tell me what you think about what he says in that passage. And Hebrews 1:2-2, which is in my signature below... And, I'm not sure if this needs to be headed off, but this is where these discussions often go awry and into the "replacement" ridiculousness...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

What they don't seem to study, is reality. In the real world satanic deception is still taking place and has never stopped taking place. Which seems rather bizarre if satan is supposed to be in the pit, which means he is unable to deceive the nations at the time. Yet, according to reality, nations are still being deceived as we speak. When satan is actually in the pit in the future, not one nation upon the earth will be being deceived by him. It's pretty simple. Prior to the thousand years satan is deceiving nations. During the thousand years he is no longer deceiving nations. After the thousand years he is once again deceiving nations. That's what the Bible teaches. Amils contradict that since their interpretation, when comparing to reality, has him still deceiving nations when he is not even supposed to be deceiving nations.

We have biblical evidence of the above throughout the New Testament.

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

* The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

The other Amil argument: THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN'S WORKS

This is what we have been told about this:

"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.

"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.

The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.
​

"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

1. Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.

2. Apparently, according to this Amil argument, the destruction of Satan's works will last for a mere thousand (symbolic) years, only to be "reversed for a short period at the close of the thousand years" (as though his works were merely bound for "a thousand symbolic years").​

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus says, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Nothing there about "binding Satan's works," but rather binding him so that he can no longer ~ at least for now ~ do his "work" of deceiving the nations, which, again is properly understood as preventing the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein. He is rendered utterly powerless to do so ~ bound and sealed from doing so.

So, yes, Satan's "house" is being "plundered" ~ many of "his goods" (his children, who are dead in their sin) are being taken. Paul speaks in that same context in Ephesians 2:5, that "...God ...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved..." And Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening, or even to curb it to any degree.

Grace and peace!

 

[ewq1938]

You need to read it again ewq. You have misread.

Changing the "firepower" that somehow envelopes and burns the entire world as coming from the enemy army is still not what the bible says. There is no such attack from them shielded by the city. There is no shield for the city. This scenario also denies fire coming from God in heaven.

The bible says the enemy surrounds the city, fire comes from heaven and destroys that army. No shield, no "firepower" from the enemy and no global fire either. Nothing you stated about that is from the bible.

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus says, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Nothing there about "binding Satan's works," but rather binding him so that he can no longer ~ at least for now ~ do his "work" of deceiving the nations, which, again is properly understood as preventing the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein. He is rendered utterly powerless to do so ~ bound and sealed from doing so.

So, yes, Satan's "house" is being "plundered" ~ many of "his goods" (his children, who are dead in their sin) are being taken. Paul speaks in that same context in Ephesians 2:5, that "...God ...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved..." And Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening, or even to curb it to any degree.

Grace and peace!

On other boards when this subject is brought up, I usually ask Amils what does all of that mean once he is loosed, though? Let's look at some of the things you submitted that are applicable to when he is bound according to Amils such as yourself.

1) preventing the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein.

Which should mean when he is loosed that he can prevent the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein.

2) He is rendered utterly powerless to do so

Which should mean when he is loosed that he is powerful enough to do so.

3) So, yes, Satan's "house" is being "plundered" ~ many of "his goods" (his children, who are dead in their sin) are being taken. Paul speaks in that same context in Ephesians 2:5, that "...God ...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved..." And Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening, or even to curb it to any degree.

Which should mean when he is loosed his house is no longer being plundered. It should mean---even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved---that satan can absolutely prevent that from happening. Why? Because you all are applying those things to his binding, yet he isn't bound forever, he's loosed eventually and that when he is loosed it has to be the opposite of when he is bound.

 

[quietthinker]

Changing the "firepower" that somehow envelopes and burns the entire world as coming from the enemy army is still not what the bible says. There is no such attack from them shielded by the city. There is no shield for the city. This scenario also denies fire coming from God in heaven.

The bible says the enemy surrounds the city, fire comes from heaven and destroys that army. No shield, no "firepower" from the enemy and no global fire either. Nothing you stated about that is from the bible.

Reading the scriptures in their context uncovers surprising, even alarming things. Without context one would sanction stoning of adulteress women, knocking out eyes and teeth, killing the enemy and so on.

If one doesn't want to see context one can argue all one likes about words and what the bible says. Ultimately with this mindset one will behave like the religious in Jesus day given the right circumstances.

 

[PinSeeker]

On other boards when this subject is brought up, I usually ask Amils what does all of that mean once he is loosed, though?

And what kind of answers do you get? I can only imagine... My answer would be, "I don't know, but it'll be bad..." Sorry, that's nothing to laugh about, to be sure.

Let's look at some of the things you submitted that are applicable to when he is bound according to Amils such as yourself.

Hm. Yes, we'll see if they are really applicable or not...

1) preventing the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein.

Which should mean when he is loosed that he can prevent the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein.

Hm. Well, in theory, yes, but this will be after all of Israel has been saved. So at that point, it really doesn't matter if he is able to prevent the spread of the Gospel or not, because the Gospel will already have completely had it's intended ~ by God ~ effect, and all who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (as Paul puts it in Ephesians 1) will then be in Christ.

2) He is rendered utterly powerless to do so

Which should mean when he is loosed that he is powerful enough to do so.

And he is, and will be able to, but again... see above.

3) So, yes, Satan's "house" is being "plundered" ~ many of "his goods" (his children, who are dead in their sin) are being taken. Paul speaks in that same context in Ephesians 2:5, that "...God ...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved..." And Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening, or even to curb it to any degree.

Which should mean when he is loosed his house is no longer being plundered.

Right. See above. God will have brought His Israel to completion.

It should mean---even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved---that satan can absolutely prevent that from happening.

Okay, fine, but the answer to all these objections is what I said to you at the outset of this post. All that God purposed to save will have been saved. Can Satan prevent it? Yes. But at that point, when He is loosed, the Gospel will have accomplished all it was sent to accomplish, and there will be nothing left for Satan to prevent.

Why? Because you all are applying those things to his binding, yet he isn't bound forever, he's loosed eventually and that when he is loosed it has to be the opposite of when he is bound.

I agree with this. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Hey, David, if God is God ~ and of course He is ~ I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you, but if God spoke the entire universe into existence pretty much instantaneously, then why would you say there's "no way... the great white throne judgment (could) be involving just 24 hours or less"? I mean, how could you really possibly say that? This is really a rhetorical question, but how long would you think it would have to take? And, I'm being a little facetious here ~ just a little bit... ~ but how long does it take you to read Matthew 25:31-46?

Grace and peace to you.

The only way I see that being logical is if the GWTJ takes place outside of time. But then that presents a problem with John 12:48 if that verse involves the GWTJ. That verse says the judgment is in the last day. In the realm pertaining to outside of time there couldn't possibly be a last day. A last day involves measurable time IOW.

And I haven't even brought up any of the following yet.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems to me, Matthew 25:31 spells out the timing of this, meaning when it initially gets underway.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Obviously, this is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Therefore, it should not be incorrect to understand Matthew 19:28 like such, in light of Matthew 25:31.

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We have two options here if we agree that Matthew 19:28 begins after Matthew 25:31 is fulfilled.

Option 1) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this forever without end.

Option 2) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this for a period of time, just not forever.

If we decide Option 2) appears to be the most reasonable conclusion to arrive at, we are to believe that they only do this for 24 hours or less? Obviously, they wouldn't still be doing this when the end comes and that God is all in all. If there are a thousand years following the 2nd coming though, this allows them more time to do this, meaning they continue doing it until the thousand years expire. Which makes better sense than they just doing this for 24 hours or less. If option 1) is the more reasonable option instead, then I guess that means what I was arguing per option 2), these arguments would be moot in that case.

What is meant by judging the 12 tribes of Israel? Obviously, it can't have anything to do with co-judging with Christ during the GWTJ since that judgment will also be involving ppl having no connection with the 12 tribes of Israel whatsoever. Not to mention, only Christ(God) is worthy of judging and sentencing someone in this manner, we sure aren't.

 

[grafted branch]

Will there no longer be night and day ever again the moment Christ returns?
I think the OT already answers that question, though.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night , which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me , saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD .

Even if one thinks they can successfully argue against verse 36 somehow, how do they figure they are going to do the same with verse 37 as well?

Hi David, I’ve been looking at this forum for a while and I decided to join also.

I know we’ve been over this before but you are leaving out the ordinances themselves. They are found in Genesis 1:14-19, the lights in the firmament (sun, moon, and stars) are for signs, seasons, days, and years. And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.

In Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself.

If we take these things literally then at some point the sun and moon are not obeying the ordinances in Genesis 1. Which would mean no eternal promises about Israel are meant for the nation of Israel since the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise would come to pass.

 

[Davidpt]

Hi David, I’ve been looking at this forum for a while and I decided to join also.

I know we’ve been over this before but you are leaving out the ordinances themselves. They are found in Genesis 1:14-19, the lights in the firmament (sun, moon, and stars) are for signs, seasons, days, and years. And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.

In Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself.

If we take these things literally then at some point the sun and moon are not obeying the ordinances in Genesis 1. Which would mean no eternal promises about Israel are meant for the nation of Israel since the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise would come to pass.

The problem is that you think you have found a way around verse 37 in particular.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

It seems like everyone except for maybe you, fully realizes what heaven above is referring to. It is referring to endlessness, something that even God can't measure. And since heaven above can't be measured, neither will God cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done. And like I mentioned before, one can't interpret verse 37 in one manner then interpret verse 36 in an entirely different manner. IOW, if verse 37 is involving an impossibility then so is verse 36. You of course are not doing that since you are seeing no impossibilities in either verse, yet verse 37 clearly involves an impossibility. BTW, glad to see you here. I enjoy discussing/debating things with you even when we can't seem to see eye to eye on a lot of these things.

 

[grafted branch]

The problem is that you think you have found a way around verse 37 in particular.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

It seems like everyone except for maybe you, fully realizes what heaven above is referring to. It is referring to endlessness, something that even God can't measure. And since heaven above can't be measured, neither will God cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done. And like I mentioned before, one can't interpret verse 37 in one manner then interpret verse 36 in an entirely different manner. IOW, if verse 37 is involving an impossibility then so is verse 36. You of course are not doing that since you are seeing no impossibilities in either verse, yet verse 37 clearly involves an impossibility. BTW, glad to see you here. I enjoy discussing/debating things with you even when we can't seem to see eye to eye on a lot of these things.

The angel with the golden reed is able to make measurements in Revelation 21:15. How would it be possible for the angel to make those measurements unless it was possible to measure heaven above?

 

[Davidpt]

Well, I guess we have to address what's meant by the "thousand years," the "millennium," as John propagates those concepts in Revelation 20. And maybe we even have to examine "thousand" as it appears in the Bible and whether in Revelation 20 it is actually a hard number or not. Context always determines that. In the case of Revelation 20, the thousand is in the context of completeness, of fullness, and not of a hard number, and that same context surrounds different numbers throughout Scripture.

The way I tend to reason this, when it comes to years in particular, the pattern throughout the Bible seems to be, that every time a number is followed by years, it is always meaning in the literal sense. Some random examples.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


1 Kings 7:1 But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house.

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;

Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.


Plenty more where these came from. How is it reasonable that if the number is a thousand, it isn't meaning that actual amount of years though everywhere else it is meaning the actual amount of years specified?

The Greek word for thousand is chilioi in Revelation 20. Unless my Strong's is wrong, chilioi is also found in the following passage.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand(chilioi) two hundred and threescore days.


Here's a math question for you. Hopefully you were good in math. Since the above verse involves the number 1260, 200 + 60 + what number = 1260? Which obviously proves that chilioi means exactly 1000 since math doesn't lie. There is no way to arrive at 1260 if one of those numbers is 200, one of those numbers is 60, but that the other number is not 1000. 200 + 60 + 1000 = 1260. 200 + 60 + 2000 does not equal 1260, that equals 2260.