The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Zao is life]

No need to read even beyond your first sentence here. When we see any reference to "nations" in the Bible, FullnessOfTheGentiles ~ Revelation 20 included ~ we should not automatically associate that with nation-states, or countries, or governments.


Same as above. Even to what you say here about governments, take China, for example. China is doing everything it can to stop the spread of the Gospel, but still, it's spreading like wildfire there. Iran is another. I am very close with some missionaries in both countries, and the Gospel is advancing with power there despite the efforts of the governments. It's hard work, for sure, but God is doing great things in those parts of the world. He is building His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Grace and peace to you.

Well from what I can see your argument is tantamount to asserting that Satan had to be bound in order for Abraham to have believed God's message, and he had to be bound again and again repeatedly so that Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets etc could all believe God's message.

How could John the Baptist have believed God's message, for that matter, if Satan needed to be bound first so that the Word of God could go out?

I think your argument imagines that Satan had all this power over God before Jesus died and rose again and ensured he got 'bound'.

Yet all the scriptures say, is that when Jesus died and rose again, Satan's power over death was destroyed. He became a defeated foe, not an absent one, and he never ever had the power over God to prevent His Word from going out that you have ascribed to him by your argument.

He is a defeated foe, not one who is absent from the scene every time he might hear someone sharing the gospel. He's not even omnipresent, and never was. His ability is restricted to be roaming about on the earth like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. No binding in it. (Bind a lion and watch it roam around seeking whom it may devour. The two do not happen together. The lion is either bound, or it is not).​

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, so, it was late last night, and now I'm coming back to this post...

The only way I see that being logical is if the GWTJ takes place outside of time.

The Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20 is after the Jesus's return, after the close of this age, after the thousand years are ended. Time is just a construct, David. Sure, things happen sequentially, and time passes in that way. We say God is "outside of time," but another way to say that is that all times are the present to Him. Which is hard to wrap our minds around, but it is what it is; He is the great I AM.

But then that presents a problem with John 12:48 if that verse involves the GWTJ. That verse says the judgment is in the last day. In the realm pertaining to outside of time there couldn't possibly be a last day. A last day involves measurable time IOW.

I think you're being to... wooden, or strict with that. So John 12:48... I say, don't be so strident concerning "on the last day." Just think of it generally in the same light as "when the thousand years are ended" in Revelation 20. Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 19:28, Revelation 20:11-15... all refer to the same event. There is no conflict, either in Scripture (which we will agree on, I'm sure) or as presented by Amillennialism.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

What does Premil do with Babylon? In Revelation 18:2 it becomes the hold of every foul spirit.

If Babylon is the bottomless pit then it would seem to cause issues with Revelation 18:4 where my people are commanded to come out of her, meaning humans are in the bottomless pit.

If Babylon is not the bottomless pit then you have Satan being bound in some kind of way just as the Amil do.

Speaking for myself, I haven't really given much thought to what you raise here. One thing we have to keep in mind, Premil agreess that someone is in the pit in this age, they just don't agree that it is satan. Premil also agrees that this same something in the pit, the beast in this case, that it is loosed from the pit in this age. Which could simply mean the time frame involving Revelation 18 and what you brought up, that this is during when he has been loosed from the pit, not while he is still in the pit. As to Babylon being the pit or not being the pit, I have no clue what you mean by that since I have never taken Babylon to be meaning the pit. According to this same chapter this Babylon in question ends up being no more, as if never existed. If Premil has satan cast into the pit post the 2nd coming, how can he be cast into something that no longer exists? Revelation 18:21

 

[Zao is life]

Since there is such a thing as a resurrection of the saved when Christ returns, this then explains how those at the time could still fulfill this after they had already died.

The above is what I've understood and even subconsciously assumed to be the case for a very long time - even long before I developed the idea regarding who rules over whom in the millennium that I expressed in my previous post. The apostles and those of that generation whom Jesus was speaking to will rise from the dead and reign over the twelve tribes of Israel during, and throughout the thousand years.

You've made me realize once again that we who believe in Jesus (all of us) subconsciously assume things in one part of scripture all the time in such a way as to keep whatever we read fitting with our understanding of another part, or other parts of scripture.

I don't know if I ever believed that 'judging' the 12 tribes was even as much as helping the Judge (Jesus) - but judging in the same sense of the Judges in the book of Judges, who judged the 12 tribes.

The difference between then (the time of the book of Judges) and when the words of Jesus come to pass, is that then there was no king over Israel yet. Now there is a King. They will judge under the King's authority (of course). I know you know that ​

 

[grafted branch]

As to Babylon being the pit or not being the pit, I have no clue what you mean by that since I have never taken Babylon to be meaning the pit. According to this same chapter this Babylon in question ends up being no more, as if never existed. If Premil has satan cast into the pit post the 2nd coming, how can he be cast into something that no longer exists? Revelation 18:21

Well, Premil argue at length about how Satan isn’t bound until the millennium, so I would think being caged or bound in Babylon might fit with being bound for the millennium. I don’t know exactly how Premil deals with this, which is why I asked.

 

[Davidpt]

The 12 tribes of Israel = Jews and Gentiles in Christ, IMO.

There can be no mixture of mortals and immortals in the paradise of the Kingdom of Christ. We will all be immortals, a few ruling over the masses (i.e over the 12 tribes of Israel), IMO, because Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden the moment he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. The moment he became mortal, he was expelled from the Garden of Eden.

The final rebellion is not the rebellion of nations of mortals: After a period had passed during the sabbath rest of God, Satan was permitted into the paradise (of the Garden of Eden) so that man - who was living forever - could be tested.

= after the resurrection we will have people reigning over us = those who had forsaken all to follow Him and those who had been martyred, and those who been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast, will be reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel, i.e over all who ever died in Christ without having to go through all that, and had been resurrected from the dead.

Yes, resurrected people can be punished with no rain during the millennium for not going up from year to year to worship the King as in Zechariah 14.

Compare these things. Think about them:

Immortality is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, and who alone has (eternal) life in Himself, according to the scriptures. "You will not surely die" implies that man (the creature) has eternal life in himself, and was (and still is) the first lie.

"You will surely die".
"You will not surely die" - implying that Adam's immortality | eternal life was in himself.

And so Adam died, and his death (the first death) came to all men, because all sinned.

The 2nd death cannot come to anyone who is not alive (zao) in his own body.

It's not wrapped up until it's all wrapped up. Adam was tested while he was living forever, before he died. The sons of Adam will all be tested. Those who had forsaken all for him, had been martyred, had already been tested, are promised that the 2nd death will have no authority over them. They will reign over the 12 tribes of Israel (living, resurrected saints) for a thousand years (in Revelation 20 only those who had refused the mark and worship of the beast were promised that the 2nd death will have no authority over them).

Satan will be released again one last time. Those who (like Adam did) believe their immortality | eternal life is in themselves instead of in Christ our Creator (who alone is immortal and who alone has eternal life in Himself), and who also rebel against Christ and the authority of the others over them (who are reigning over them), will experience the 2nd death.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour those Gog/Magog armies who surround the camp of the saints. Like the beast and the false prophet before them, they will be thrown alive (zao) into the lake of fire. The devil who deceived the nations again will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Then Death and hades will deliver the rest of the dead up for the GWT - those mortals of whom it is written, "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed".

The final rebellion is not the rebellion of nations of mortals: After a period had passed during the sabbath rest of God, Satan was permitted into the paradise (of the Garden of Eden) so that man - who was living forever - could be tested.

1. Adam's death, which came to all men.
2. The last Adam's (Christ's) death and resurrection from death, which comes to all men.
3. The 2nd death.

There will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death. And there will be no mortals in the millennium. It's the sons of Adam in paradise, having received immortality in Christ (through His Spirit in them sharing with Him in HIS immortality), having been resurrected from the dead.

There can be no mixture of mortals and immortals in the paradise of the Kingdom of Christ. We will all be immortals, a few ruling over the masses (i.e the 12 tribes of Israel), IMO, because Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden the moment he was prevented from eating of the tree of life, the moment he became mortal.

So reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel has nothing to do with the last day and how long it will last, IMO.​

I need time to consider what all you submitted here. In the meantime here is something I have been thinking for a long time. Clearly, a lot of passages in the NT involving prophetic events are compressed, and that Amils are not taking some of that into account. Which could mean a lot of the missing details in these compressed passages, they are found throughout the prophets in the OT. Amils typically apply those prophecies in the OT to be only involving the first advent up to the 2nd advent, none of it involving post the 2nd advent. Why would the Bible be silent on what happens after Christ returns though, meaning between His return and the great white throne judgment? Why wouldn't there be a gap between those 2 events?

 

[Davidpt]

The angel with the golden reed is able to make measurements in Revelation 21:15. How would it be possible for the angel to make those measurements unless it was possible to measure heaven above?

In the KJV the exact phrase 'heaven above' is found in the following passages.

Genesis 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Joshua 2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

1 Kings 8:23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Not only does heaven above involve things we can see from the earth below, Acts 2:19 for instance, it also involves things we can't see from the earth below--- there is no God like thee, in heaven above(1 Kings 8:23). Obviously, God is in heaven above, yet no one can see God from the earth below. Yet, one can see stars from the earth below, and with powerful telescopes one can even see planets from the earth below. Except there is much more to heaven above than what we able to see. How then is it possible to measure heaven above when not all of heaven above is even visible to us?

As to what you brought up in Revelation 21, that is apparently something one is able to see, meaning this city new Jerusalem. It has walls even, and borders, etc. Where are these walls and borders in heaven above? Where is it in heaven above that when you get to a certain location that there is nothing beyond that? Kind of like if the earth was flat and that if you walked far enough in one direction you would run out of earth eventually and simply fall off it. As if the earth has ends somewhere. Except everyone already knows circles can't have ends.


Once again, no matter what you argue and what you argue with, it will never take away from the fact that Jeremiah 31:37 involves an impossibility, which then tells us whether or not these ordinances will ever depart from Him. Of course they won't. The only way they can besides being able to search the foundations of the earth beneath,, someone has to be able to measure heaven above first. And clearly, what you brought up per Revelation 21, that has zero to do with measuring heaven above, since heaven above obviously contains more than just this city you brought up.

 

[Davidpt]

Well, Premil argue at length about how Satan isn’t bound until the millennium, so I would think being caged or bound in Babylon might fit with being bound for the millennium. I don’t know exactly how Premil deals with this, which is why I asked.

The fact there is Revelation 18:21 to consider, Babylon can't be meaning the pit per Premil since the pit per Premil still exists after Christ has returned, while Babylon no longer does.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all

What I have underlined I take that to mean once this is fulfilled, it will be as if it never existed. It for sure won't exist anymore, ever.

If it can be convincingly argued that Revelation 18:21 is meaning after the thousand years rather than prior to the thousand years, that would seem to maybe debunk Premil in that case.

 

[grafted branch]

Not only does heaven above involve things we can see from the earth below, Acts 2:19 for instance, it also involves things we can't see from the earth below--- there is no God like thee, in heaven above(1 Kings 8:23). Obviously, God is in heaven above, yet no one can see God from the earth below. Yet, one can see stars from the earth below, and with powerful telescopes one can even see planets from the earth below. Except there is much more to heaven above than what we able to see. How then is it possible to measure heaven above when not all of heaven above is even visible to us?

As to what you brought up in Revelation 21, that is apparently something one is able to see, meaning this city new Jerusalem. It has walls even, and borders, etc. Where are these walls and borders in heaven above? Where is it in heaven above that when you get to a certain location that there is nothing beyond that? Kind of like if the earth was flat and that if you walked far enough in one direction you would run out of earth eventually and simply fall off it. As if the earth has ends somewhere. Except everyone already knows circles can't have ends.


Once again, no matter what you argue and what you argue with, it will never take away from the fact that Jeremiah 31:37 involves an impossibility, which then tells us whether or not these ordinances will ever depart from Him. Of course they won't. The only way they can besides being able to search the foundations of the earth beneath,, someone has to be able to measure heaven above first. And clearly, what you brought up per Revelation 21, that has zero to do with measuring heaven above, since heaven above obviously contains more than just this city you brought up.

Jeremiah 31:37 doesn’t say if all of heaven as a whole can be measured, it says if heaven above can be measured. In other words if it is possible to measure heaven above then …

A similar statement would be, if you can count numbers then … As you know we can always add one more number and since this can go on to infinity nobody will ever count all the numbers yet we can all count numbers just not to infinity.

Your argument has to have both all of heaven in its entirety being measured and for heaven not to be finite.

If you are correct then Jeremiah 31:35-36 does happen but Jeremiah 31:37 doesn’t. Which means Israel will cease from being a nation before God and all the seed of Israel will not be cast off for all that they have done. I’m not sure if you would agree with this or not.

 

[grafted branch]

The fact there is Revelation 18:21 to consider, Babylon can't be meaning the pit per Premil since the pit per Premil still exists after Christ has returned, while Babylon no longer does.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all

What I have underlined I take that to mean once this is fulfilled, it will be as if it never existed. It for sure won't exist anymore, ever.

If it can be convincingly argued that Revelation 18:21 is meaning after the thousand years rather than prior to the thousand years, that would seem to maybe debunk Premil in that case.

So when Satan is caged in Babylon how will the rest of the world be? Will nations still be deceived or not?

 

[rwb]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

Hi David, welcome!

I, being amillennial also believe that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer, there is still some time left for this world. That time is not yet judgment day, which I believe shall come in A day, the time left after time given the Church for building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit has expired (a symbolic thousand years), Satan will then have his little season.

Notice how John writes "in the days" plural, more than one day. When the seventh angels begins to sound time for that which was shrouded in mystery "should be finished". The mystery is that which God had declared to His prophets.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the mystery that is finished in the days the seventh angel begins to sound? I believe the mystery that had been hidden was how Christ would build the spiritual Kingdom of God as His Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth, and the Gentiles would complete His Kingdom.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:3-8 (KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The building of the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel and power of Christ's Spirit coincides with the binding of Satan for a period of time symbolized a thousand years. Satan being bound through Christ's cross and resurrection was to keep him from deceiving the nations. Which He was able to do before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man by holding them in bondage to death. This bondage has been broken for whosoever hears the Gospel and by grace through faith turns to Christ for everlasting life. That's why the time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God and Satan's binding both come to an end when the Kingdom of God is complete, so too the thousand years will expire.

So in the days of the seventh trumpet when it begins to sound, Satan shall be set free from bondage to gather together all who are of Gog and Magog which symbolizes antichrists and antichristian followers of Satan. In these days instead of destroying the last Christians left alive on this earth, fire shall come down from God to devour them all. Then we shall have come to A day of judgment where the dead will be called to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. So the last days when the seventh trumpet begins to sound is a very busy unknown, but very short period of time for what I call Satan's last hurrah before being cast into the eternal flames.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't know if I ever believed that 'judging' the 12 tribes was even as much as helping the Judge (Jesus) - but judging in the same sense of the Judges in the book of Judges, who judged the 12 tribes.

The difference between then (the time of the book of Judges) and when the words of Jesus come to pass, is that then there was no king over Israel yet. Now there is a King. They will judge under the King's authority (of course). I know you know that [/JUSTIFY]

Slowly but surely, it appears to me that we are getting somewhat on the same page here. I liked what you said here in particular---They will judge under the King's authority (of course). IMO, to judge the 12 tribes of Israel is in order to help them do the right things, to make the right decisions. Maybe Daniel 7 holds some clues here?

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Could the people meant here be meaning the 12 tribes of Israel, and the saints of the most High, this is meaning the ones sitting on the 12 thrones? I don't know? Maybe, maybe not. Something that just crossed my mind. Haven't really had time to think about it yet.

 

[Davidpt]

Hi David, welcome!

I, being amillennial also believe that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer, there is still some time left for this world. That time is not yet judgment day, which I believe shall come in A day, the time left after time given the Church for building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit has expired (a symbolic thousand years), Satan will then have his little season.

Notice how John writes "in the days" plural, more than one day. When the seventh angels begins to sound time for that which was shrouded in mystery "should be finished". The mystery is that which God had declared to His prophets.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the mystery that is finished in the days the seventh angel begins to sound? I believe the mystery that had been hidden was how Christ would build the spiritual Kingdom of God as His Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth, and the Gentiles would complete His Kingdom.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:3-8 (KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The building of the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel and power of Christ's Spirit coincides with the binding of Satan for a period of time symbolized a thousand years. Satan being bound through Christ's cross and resurrection was to keep him from deceiving the nations. Which He was able to do before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man by holding them in bondage to death. This bondage has been broken for whosoever hears the Gospel and by grace through faith turns to Christ for everlasting life. That's why the time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God and Satan's binding both come to an end when the Kingdom of God is complete, so too the thousand years will expire.

So in the days of the seventh trumpet when it begins to sound, Satan shall be set free from bondage to gather together all who are of Gog and Magog which symbolizes antichrists and antichristian followers of Satan. In these days instead of destroying the last Christians left alive on this earth, fire shall come down from God to devour them all. Then we shall have come to A day of judgment where the dead will be called to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. So the last days when the seventh trumpet begins to sound is a very busy unknown, but very short period of time for what I call Satan's last hurrah before being cast into the eternal flames.

Roger, I don't know if you realize it or not, but you and I have been knowing each other for quite some time now, since the days of that Bibleforums board you and I were members of a long time ago. Then I encountered you on another board recently that both you and I are members of, except you quit posting there eventually. I'm thinking about maybe doing the same, not posting on the other board anymore since I tend to like this board better, at least thus far. And that I already know a lot of you from this other board, and that you all are mainly posting over here now.

 

[Davidpt]

So when Satan is caged in Babylon how will the rest of the world be? Will nations still be deceived or not?

satan is never caged in Babylon per Premil if Babylon is already no more by the time he is caged. By caged, you are meaning in the bottomless pit, right? If yes, the fact Christ will have returned, saved saints co ruling with Him, those that were deceived yet spared, would not still be deceived during the millennium. How could they be if satan is in the pit, Christ has returned, and that saved saints are ruling over them? Who would be trying to deceive them during the millennium?

 

[rwb]

Roger, I don't know if you realize it or not, but you and I have been knowing each other for quite some time now, since the days of that Bibleforums board you and I were members of a long time ago. Then I encountered you on another board recently that both you and I are members of, except you quit posting there eventually. I'm thinking about maybe doing the same, not posting on the other board anymore since I tend to like this board better, at least thus far. And that I already know a lot of you from this other board, and that you all are mainly posting over here now.

Yes, I do remember how we have been frustrating one another for many years now regarding our opposing positions of eschatology. I wondered if you would one day come to this site. I've been here now since 11/22, I was happy to find a community where discussion is more freely allowed. The moderators are far less nanny like than the other boards. Good to hear from you again, looking forward to our boxing matches. LOL.

 

[rwb]

Well from what I can see your argument is tantamount to asserting that Satan had to be bound in order for Abraham to have believed God's message, and he had to be bound again and again repeatedly so that Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets etc could all believe God's message.

How could John the Baptist have believed God's message, for that matter, if Satan needed to be bound first so that the Word of God could go out?

I think your argument imagines that Satan had all this power over God before Jesus died and rose again and ensured he got 'bound'.

Yet all the scriptures say, is that when Jesus died and rose again, Satan's power over death was destroyed. He became a defeated foe, not an absent one, and he never ever had the power over God to prevent His Word from going out that you have ascribed to him by your argument.

He is a defeated foe, not one who is absent from the scene every time he might hear someone sharing the gospel. He's not even omnipresent, and never was. His ability is restricted to be roaming about on the earth like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. No binding in it. (Bind a lion and watch it roam around seeking whom it may devour. The two do not happen together. The lion is either bound, or it is not).​

The answer lies in the question of how Satan was able to deceive the nations prior to his being bound. It was not as so many believe to rid the world of evil. It was so the Kingdom of God could be built. Before Christ's coming Satan had power to hold the nations who had never heard of Christ in bondage to fear of death. We are not set free from this bondage until we have been given eternal life through Christ. In fact Satan had already been somewhat bound at the beginning of His ministry on earth. The Scriptures speak of Christ casting out devils and demons even before through the cross and resurrection Satan lost all power to hold the nations of those who would be saved in bondage to fear of death. As I've said that bondage is broken when we know the life we have through Christ is forever and that we shall never die. Remember the nations before the advent of Christ had never heard this message before.

 

[Zao is life]

I need time to consider what all you submitted here. In the meantime here is something I have been thinking for a long time. Clearly, a lot of passages in the NT involving prophetic events are compressed, and that Amils are not taking some of that into account. Which could mean a lot of the missing details in these compressed passages, they are found throughout the prophets in the OT. Amils typically apply those prophecies in the OT to be only involving the first advent up to the 2nd advent, none of it involving post the 2nd advent. Why would the Bible be silent on what happens after Christ returns though, meaning between His return and the great white throne judgment? Why wouldn't there be a gap between those 2 events?

I agree. I believe that Amils (and MANY Premils) don't really see the reason for the millennium. To Amils, Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, came, died, and rose again, and God is now, and has been calling all who will hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, until He returns. Then it will all be wrapped up. No need for another thousand years.

That's Amils. But I believe that MANY Premils don't seem to realize that the thousand years is not all about Israel, or Jews, or resurrected saints

- it's all about Jesus, and the promise TO HIM. He is the Son of man. See how the one thing leads to the next:
​

GOD'S PURPOSE

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness.
And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
(Genesis 1:26)​

Adam's choice spoiled God's purpose for creating man.

The Son of man is promised the following:

Psalm 8:3-9
"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than God (Hebrew: 'elohiym, see Genesis 1:26-27 Hebrews 1:3), and have crowned him with glory and honor.

You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas. O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!"

Psalm 2:7-8
“I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.”

Yet,

John 18​

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews.

But now (nŷn: of this present time) My kingdom is not from here.

Hebrews 2
7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honour, and did set him over the works of your hands:
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

But now (nŷn: of this present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

What do we see, then, at this present time?

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than God (elohiym) for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that santifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Jesus has not reigned in this sense yet:

Psalm 2:7-8
“I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.”

So, when He returns.

Revelation 19:5
"And out of His (Christ's) mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd [poimaínō] them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God."

The word in the Greek is shepherd. In the Psalms it's smash, crush. First He crushes all His enemies who do not believe. Then He takes up His rightful rule and becomes the Shepherd of all who were His at the time of His return.

Then, after He has reigned a thousand years and all enemies except death have been brought under His feet, then the reign of man (through the Son of man) comes to an end, when He hands the Kingdom back to God the Father, and God will be all in all:

1 Corintians 15
24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The word is deî and is better translated as "it is right, it is fitting for Him to reign until He has put all enemies under His feet".

Of course, the Amils believe that it's already happening now, for Jesus, and so they will always flatly ignore sentences that qualify statements, like this in Hebrews 2:8:
​

"But now (nŷn: of this present time) we see not yet all things put under him.",

and this in John 18:36:

"But now (nŷn: of this present time) My kingdom is not from here."

But whether we're in the millennium now or whether it's still coming, the millennium is all about God's purpose for Christ - the Son of man, and the promise made TO HIM. It's not "all about us", though we are greatly privileged to share with Him in HIS inheritance:

1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.

But it's still not about us, it's not about the Jews, it's not about "the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled", and it's not about anyone else or anything else - it's about Jesus, the seed of Abraham, the Son of man, the priest in the order of Melchizedek, the one who inherits the throne of David.

It's HIS inheritance. THAT'S the reason for the thousand years. The only reason.

And in the process, at the close of that period the rest of the sons of Adam will be tested who had been raised from the dead but had never been tested the way Adam was, or in the way all those who had left all to follow Jesus and had been martyred or beheaded for their witness and refusal to worship the beast, had already been tested.​

 

[grafted branch]

satan is never caged in Babylon per Premil if Babylon is already no more by the time he is caged. By caged, you are meaning in the bottomless pit, right? If yes, the fact Christ will have returned, saved saints co ruling with Him, those that were deceived yet spared, would not still be deceived during the millennium. How could they be if satan is in the pit, Christ has returned, and that saved saints are ruling over them? Who would be trying to deceive them during the millennium?

In Revelation 18:2 Babylon is the hold of every foul spirit and cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Wherever in time you place Babylon, it has to contain Satan because Satan is foul and unclean.

If Premil has Babylon being no more by the time Christ returns then sometime prior to the second coming Satan is in Babylon. I’m just wondering if Satan can still deceive the nations while he’s in Babylon.

 

[Zao is life]

Slowly but surely, it appears to me that we are getting somewhat on the same page here. I liked what you said here in particular---They will judge under the King's authority (of course). IMO, to judge the 12 tribes of Israel is in order to help them do the right things, to make the right decisions. Maybe Daniel 7 holds some clues here?

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Could the people meant here be meaning the 12 tribes of Israel, and the saints of the most High, this is meaning the ones sitting on the 12 thrones? I don't know? Maybe, maybe not. Something that just crossed my mind. Haven't really had time to think about it yet.

It's also the Kingdom of the citizens who are governed by the judges under the rule of the King. It's bliss. It's peace. It's everything good we can ever imagine - and more.

 

[Zao is life]

satan is never caged in Babylon per Premil if Babylon is already no more by the time he is caged. By caged, you are meaning in the bottomless pit, right? If yes, the fact Christ will have returned, saved saints co ruling with Him, those that were deceived yet spared, would not still be deceived during the millennium. How could they be if satan is in the pit, Christ has returned, and that saved saints are ruling over them? Who would be trying to deceive them during the millennium?

The angels who sinned and are now kept in chains are not in Babylon. Sometimes what people claim you are saying may be merely a straw man argument.