The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[FollowHim]

Peter! Long time no see! I see you have not changed a bit

anyone with any sense would realize that she has to many I’d

salvation is not what can I do
For you god. It’s what Can you do for
Me! When you add I to the equation you are admitting god needs your help

I appreciate your concern for me as regards you want me to find something you value.
But unfortunately in all social interactions one has to realise people are only what they disclose and not what we assume.
I have had friends who I believed were one particular way, until I got to know them better, and sadly I discovered it was something else entirely.

And it is also amusing that you think you can summarise interactions in the past with interactions now and then come to the conclusion I have not changed. What has not changed is your projections and assumptions. It literally does not matter who I am or what I believe, it is the all knowing eye that sees the truth. I suppose one could say drawing these kind of conclusions from a few sentences on a forum is not as bad as analysing peoples reaction to oneself by one word, which is often a sign of serious perception problems but this is not far off.

And I must admit I cannot take it personally, because how could someone who does not know me be so assertive unless they have no clue.
One of my relatives who was a little extreme and easily influenced followed an indian guru who claimed to be God, or an incarnation. He went up to this guru and said that obviously the guru knew everything about him. This was such a delusional statement of faith, because all the man had to do was agree. Turns out this guru was a conman, and exploited his followers, but people really do need to believe they know, not just a little, they know.

I am happy to know in Jesus I am known and loved, and by His Spirit I can walk in Holiness. I have no right to know anything about anyone else unless they disclose it, whether in faith, emotion or sin. One dear brother seemed to disagree with me, and upon sharing my life and spiritual experiences it turned out we were brothers in the Lord. Equally some who appear brothers are overwhelmed by hatred and envy of others, while on the surface they seem nice, their hearts and minds are out of control.

The issue of arming police who at 20 years old can shoot innocent people dead with no comeback, is no minor matter, yet the colour of skin of the victim in some minds implies guilt or innocence. And worse still these victims are brothers and sisters in Christ with a good heart. But then hard hearted people do not notice, because they are as they are, and God does not require them to be ambassadors of love and acceptance, a living example of Christ on earth, except that is exactly what Jesus asks of us. But what hard hearted people do not see, it is not an obligation or something we work towards, it is Christs words and indwelling Holy Spirit working through us.

Of course this sounds like death to those who are dying, but life to those who are in Christ. And brothers and sisters in Christ you can tell which side of this fence people stand on by their reaction and self condemnation. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

Peter! Long time no see! I see you have not changed a bit

anyone with any sense would realize that she has to many I’d

salvation is not what can I do
For you god. It’s what Can you do for
Me! When you add I to the equation you are admitting god needs your help

"When you add I to the equation you are admitting god needs your help"

This is such a blind statement. Love by its nature needs others, it is how love works, literally.
Love says, I need you, who you are to interact with me and we become a whole walking together.

Listen to Jesus, "I and the Father are one."
"May they be one like us" talking about the apostles.

Being a body of many parts we admit we need one another. So Jesus is inviting us to commune with Him because He needs us and we need Him.
Need can be used in a unhealthy way, a co dependency and exploitation, or it can be an upbuilding appreciation of service one to another.

What is amazing the Son does not claim to be God, but honours the Father even though He is worthy of praise and honour Himself.
The Son did not claim status, the Father gave Him status. The Holy Spirits ministry is to bring honour and glory to the Son and the Father.
They are interwoven with appreciation and humbleness which is stunning and so different than ourselves.

I need appreciation and support, I need people who love and appreciate my contributions and I want to encourage and appreciate others as best I can. Knowing our needs helps us to bear the pain when it is not met and also give us space when we are out of energy and ability to continue. One big mistake those with enthusiasm and desire to help others, forget they themselves have real needs that must be met and recognised or they are eaten alive. Jesus knew this well and withdrew for prayer and communion with the Father often and regularly, as well as spending time with the disciples and encouraging them.

So to summarise, I need the Lord and the Lord desires we are in communion with Him, God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"When you add I to the equation you are admitting god needs your help"

This is such a blind statement. Love by its nature needs others, it is how love works, literally.
Love says, I need you, who you are to interact with me and we become a whole walking together.

Listen to Jesus, "I and the Father are one."
"May they be one like us" talking about the apostles.

Being a body of many parts we admit we need one another. So Jesus is inviting us to commune with Him because He needs us and we need Him.
Need can be used in a unhealthy way, a co dependency and exploitation, or it can be an upbuilding appreciation of service one to another.

What is amazing the Son does not claim to be God, but honours the Father even though He is worthy of praise and honour Himself.
The Son did not claim status, the Father gave Him status. The Holy Spirits ministry is to bring honour and glory to the Son and the Father.
They are interwoven with appreciation and humbleness which is stunning and so different than ourselves.

I need appreciation and support, I need people who love and appreciate my contributions and I want to encourage and appreciate others as best I can. Knowing our needs helps us to bear the pain when it is not met and also give us space when we are out of energy and ability to continue. One big mistake those with enthusiasm and desire to help others, forget they themselves have real needs that must be met and recognised or they are eaten alive. Jesus knew this well and withdrew for prayer and communion with the Father often and regularly, as well as spending time with the disciples and encouraging them.

So to summarise, I need the Lord and the Lord desires we are in communion with Him, God bless you

So God need you to help him save you?

You think to highly of yourself man. There is not one ounce of work you can do to get a god to forgive you if one sin. Let alone all the ones you have committed since birth

but as usual. You think otherwise

and is. You have not change Concerning the gospel I see your posting. Same Ole stuff

 

[FollowHim]

So God need you to help him save you?

You think to highly of yourself man. There is not one ounce of work you can do to get a god to forgive you if one sin. Let alone all the ones you have committed since birth

but as usual. You think otherwise

and is. You have not change Concerning the gospel I see your posting. Same Ole stuff

You always try and polarise the conversation into language that is suggesting the wrong problem and the wrong solution.
God is someone one needs to define, how He desires to have things and what is His solution to our failure.
Salvation or the process of turning sinners into the redeemed people of God needs clarifying and scoping out.
Mixing up role and status also needs clarification.

The Father needed Jesus to come to earth and die upon the cross for the salvation or purchase of His people.
Describing need does not define loss or weakness but connectedness and working as team.
When a team set out to rescue a patient from a mountain, the patient needs to cooperate or the rescue will not work.
This dependency does not devalue the rescue or the patients appreciation of being rescued or even the total reliance the patience has on the team.

What is clear from the description given by EG is admitting we are involved for him devalues God and His work.
It is a theme that seems like wisdom, but denies salvation, the transformation of sinner to saint. The whole foundation of free will and choosing to follow and walk, is dependant on cooperation, responsibility and sacrifice. Listen to Jesus,

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:37-38

We do not call ourselves worthy, we accept that by loving Jesus more than our family and taking up our cross and following Him makes us worthy. The foolishness of those who do not listen to Jesus, is they see simply their perspective and can go no further.

Jesus says something unbelievable.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

He gave His life that we might have life, to be counted worthy, to walk as He walked, to love as He loved, to share in His glory. He picked us up and has raised us up out of our sinfulness into His glorious light. So it is not I who thinks we are fantastic, it is God through Jesus who has raised us up to be His people, a glorious and wonderful place. The enemies of Christ think being a sinner but acknowledging who Christ is the gospel except demons do the same and are not saved. As John the Baptist declares

7 "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."
Matt 3:7-8

The foolishness of those who claim faith to salvation but have no fruit is there is no reward or reality in this state, it is just being a bystander to ones own damnation. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Same Ole stuff

I wish the wisdom I share in Christ now I had years ago, but we grow from glory unto glory.
And it see with greater clarity the traps of sin hidden within unbelievers positions, which polarise and destroy the spirituality of others.
I can stand alongside an unbeliever praising God in song, and still their unbelief does not stop my fellowship and worship of the King, because He transcends the sinfulness and hypocrisy of those around.

Now for me this was a trap I was falling into. Like getting discouraged when people who claim to know Jesus share heresy and sinful behaviour. It will always be so, and some even might be brothers and sisters from the past. On the day of judgement Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, but until then I just praise God and walk in His ways.

And hopefully I share Jesus and His salvation, love and hope through the cross to all who call out to Him.
And because this is a living testimony, it is always growing and changing, a vast see that extends out into eternity, except on Gods people see this. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You always try and polarise the conversation into language that is suggesting the wrong problem and the wrong solution.
God is someone one needs to define, how He desires to have things and what is His solution to our failure.
Salvation or the process of turning sinners into the redeemed people of God needs clarifying and scoping out.
Mixing up role and status also needs clarification.

The Father needed Jesus to come to earth and die upon the cross for the salvation or purchase of His people.
Describing need does not define loss or weakness but connectedness and working as team.
When a team set out to rescue a patient from a mountain, the patient needs to cooperate or the rescue will not work.
This dependency does not devalue the rescue or the patients appreciation of being rescued or even the total reliance the patience has on the team.

What is clear from the description given by EG is admitting we are involved for him devalues God and His work.
It is a theme that seems like wisdom, but denies salvation, the transformation of sinner to saint. The whole foundation of free will and choosing to follow and walk, is dependant on cooperation, responsibility and sacrifice. Listen to Jesus,

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:37-38

We do not call ourselves worthy, we accept that by loving Jesus more than our family and taking up our cross and following Him makes us worthy. The foolishness of those who do not listen to Jesus, is they see simply their perspective and can go no further.

Jesus says something unbelievable.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

He gave His life that we might have life, to be counted worthy, to walk as He walked, to love as He loved, to share in His glory. He picked us up and has raised us up out of our sinfulness into His glorious light. So it is not I who thinks we are fantastic, it is God through Jesus who has raised us up to be His people, a glorious and wonderful place. The enemies of Christ think being a sinner but acknowledging who Christ is the gospel except demons do the same and are not saved. As John the Baptist declares

7 "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."
Matt 3:7-8

The foolishness of those who claim faith to salvation but have no fruit is their is no reward or reality in this state, it is just being a bystander to ones own damnation. God bless you

this is what I mean about Peter here never changing,

you take a simple concept, and a simple discussion, and he takes this simple concept and blows it out of proportion and makes it seem like it is a huge undertaking and we have to do this and that and everything else

Oh and he inserts what he thinks EG does and believes and claims he knows better than EG, and EG has no right to tell him he is wronf

thanks again peter, I almost lost my mind tryingg to explain things (my belief and the gospel) to you in Christian Chat, I do not wish to go down this path again, it did not work there and it will not working here, it’s a waste of time
And we know where it finally led.

 

[FollowHim]

this is what I mean about Peter here never changing,

you take a simple concept, and a simple discussion, and he takes this simple concept and blows it out of proportion and makes it seem like it is a huge undertaking and we have to do this and that and everything else

Oh and he inserts what he thinks EG does and believes and claims he knows better than EG, and EG has no right to tell him he is wronf

thanks again peter, I almost lost my mind tryingg to explain things (my belief and the gospel) to you in Christian Chat, I do not wish to go down this path again, it did not work there and it will not working here, it’s a waste of time
And we know where it finally led.

I am curious, you almost lost your mind trying to explain the gospel? But you claim it here it is a simple concept.
I do find this suggestion amusing. The bible is thousands of pages long, across 2000 years of known history, but it is simple.
Another argument is the gospel is simple if you accept it, but impossible to understand if you do not, beyond ones ability to grasp.

Why is it that you found this so hard? Because maybe I am not what you expected or can cope with.
It is a strange reality, to speak Jesus's words and to get such antagonism and animosity from someone who claims to follow and listen to Jesus.
It is almost as if the words they say they are following they are actually not.

Paul describes the people of God in these terms

1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:1-2

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:12-13

Amen. We are dearly loved children, purchased, cleansed and made whole.
So dear brothers and sisters in Christ, after reading the contributions above, do you think I am being dearly loved and appreciated for encouraging and loving the people of God as they follow Christ, or being condemned and rejected?

Now some have a history of life in church, with great bitterness and hatred of certain approaches and expressions of Christ. This hatred spills over into their discussions with others, and for no apparent reason some are made as enemies of God while others as their friends, but unfortunately this is being driven by their emotional reaction to their history and unresolved issues, to which I in Christ can but pray for them.

This is why getting drawn into such interactions just leads to confusion, with no apparent cause, accusations and emotions that are neither appropriate or true. One tactic of these folk is to play the victim, and claim they have tried and failed to convert this poor reprobate, while actually conveying only the emotional setting and not any content.

But their antagonism is not innocent or idle, but fierce and dangerous, because they intend harm to the people of God and regard them as their enemy. But shinning a light on this approach is all that is needed, so God bless, it means only the attempt is made but nothing connects.

God bless you

 

[BarneyFife]

try the NT with those who are born again

Who could've seen that coming? Jesus seems to have expected Nicodemus to understand the new birth from the Old Testament, dispensationalism (which is truly not in the Bible) notwithstanding. What difference would it make anyway if you couldn't find a specific English word in the Bible? There are probably 100+ words that are not in the Bible that are held by nearly all Christians as orthodoxy.

 

[Doug]

This thread is needed because eternal security advocates tend to ignore relevant biblical contexts and verse clusters. The thread will initially focus on the 2nd half of the first century (Revelation and then Hebrews) and then shift to Paul and finally to Jesus. In the process, it will be demonstrated that the election and perseverance texts cited by the OSAS advocates are actually irrelevant to the issue. To avoid chaotic discussion please follow my lead and focus your remarks on the biblical book currently under discussion.

1. THE BOOK OF REVELATION

The case against OSAS in Revelation is clearcut and decisive.

“If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes and I will not erase your name from the Book of Life (3:6).”

The threat of erasure implies that the church of Sardis already has their names written in the Book of Life! To prevent the loss of their salvation, they must “conquer,” that is, they must heed the Lord's threat: “Remember then what you have received and heard; obey it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief (3:3).” These Christians must persevere in their faith like “those who have not soiled their garments (3:4).”

In the letter to the church of Smyrna the need to “conquer” is again stressed as the way to avoid losing one's salvation: “Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (2:11).” And how can Christians conquer? “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (3:10).” Again, the implication is that if they are not faithful, their names that are already written in the Book of Life will be erased and they will forfeit “the crown of life.” Remember, the Greek word for “faith” also means “faithful.”

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is resolved by realizing that this passage is to be applied to Israel and not the church today, the Body of Christ.

The churches in Revelation are churches in the future. The book of Revelation concerns Israel:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

The tree of life will be found in the new Jerusalem, the future earthly kingdom of Israel:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

The body of Christ has a future in the heavenly places not the earthly:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

It is for Israel to reign over the nations on earth if they endure until the end:

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10

The book of life is for Israel:

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

Revelation 21:27 refers once again to the new Jerusalem on earth:

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

Those of israel that overcometh will be granted to sit on the throne:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

To sit on the throne was allocated to the Jews:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

He that overcometh shall obtain the inheritance:

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7

Israel will inherit the kingdom:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

The believing remnant of Israel will overcome by believing Jesus is the Son of God:

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?1 John 5:5

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 11:29, For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ecc 3:14, I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

[BarneyFife]

Snore. Forever means forever unless it comes to covenants, even though He speaks of the Everlasting covenant. And the slicing and dicing of the Word continues.

 

[BarneyFife]

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is resolved by realizing that this passage is to be applied to Israel and not the church today, the Body of Christ.

The churches in Revelation are churches in the future. The book of Revelation concerns Israel.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

The tree of life will be found in the new Jerusalem, the future eartly kingdom of Israel.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

The body of Christ has a future in the heavenly places not the earthly.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

It is for Israel to reign over the nations on earth.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10

The book of life is for Israel.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

Revelation 21:27 refers once again to the new Jerusalem on earth.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

To him that overcometh will be granted to sit on the throne.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

To sit on the throne was allocated to the Jews.

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

He that overcometh shall obtain the inheritance.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7

Israel will inherit the kingdom.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

The believing remnant of Israel will overcome by believing Jesus is the Son of God..
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?1 John 5:5

The church is Israel now, futurism notwithstanding.

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="CharismaticLady, post: 839022, member: 8246] So don't tell me that OSAS doesn't teach anything goes.[/QUOTE]

Salvation is a Gift from the Lord God for ones True Heartfelt Belief.

Understand, it is followed by the Gift of a Quickened spirit, via Gods Spiritual Baptism.

It is A Personal relationship Between ONE individual And The Lord God, offered by God and Accepted by the man.

The Agreement for an individual to Receive Gods offered Gifts, Comes with...TWO LAWS,
That Jesus called the Two greatest Laws.
Adhering to LAWS are man's downfall, Yet, The NT better Testament Gives us a WAY to Keep...those Two great Laws, and The Highest Power, one has Submitted to, TO KEEP a man Faithful To the Lord God Forever, BY the Lord Gods INDWELLING Spirit!

It is a Secure Failsafe Assurance, By the Power of God indwelling Spirit, The Saved and Born Again, Shall always be with the Lord God.

Once Accomplished, This is Never required to be Repeated, Hoped for, of Affraid of God Renegging and Taking His Gift Away from an individual.
Such a man having Received Gods Gifts, Can Never Again Disbelieve or be Unfaithful to the Lord God.

You seem to imply a presumed Perfected Behavior in an a Saved and Born Again man.
Or that judging a man's behavior toward other men, somehow effects an individual's relationship with God.

A mans relationship with God, being Saved and Born Again, "is established secure" and Has NOT one iota to do with relationships "between" two individual humans.

A man's relationship with other men; good, bad, indifferent, is simply the necessary environment humans experience.
Their consequences can be endless, unknown, pleasant or unpleasant. That is between men.
Certainly God has given guidelines on behaviors between men for the best outcome, Through PRECEPTS. Follow them if you please, and when you do not, eh you suffer the (whatever) Consequences the other man doles out.

You can probably search through the 600+ Mosaic Laws and find consequences for behaviors between men, unfavorable, and called A Man Committing a Sin Against another man...But you, by your posts do not appear to be Jewish, or Subject TO Jewish Law..

..so What Sin Does a Gentile Commit Against another man?

Can you answer?

Thanks,
Taken

 

[Taken]

This thread is needed because eternal security advocates tend to ignore relevant biblical contexts and verse clusters. The thread will initially focus on the 2nd half of the first century (Revelation and then Hebrews) and then shift to Paul and finally to Jesus. In the process, it will be demonstrated that the election and perseverance texts cited by the OSAS advocates are actually irrelevant to the issue. To avoid chaotic discussion please follow my lead and focus your remarks on the biblical book currently under discussion.

1. THE BOOK OF REVELATION

The case against OSAS in Revelation is clearcut and decisive.

“If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes and I will not erase your name from the Book of Life (3:6).”

The threat of erasure implies that the church of Sardis already has their names written in the Book of Life! To prevent the loss of their salvation, they must “conquer,” that is, they must heed the Lord's threat: “Remember then what you have received and heard; obey it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief (3:3).” These Christians must persevere in their faith like “those who have not soiled their garments (3:4).”

In the letter to the church of Smyrna the need to “conquer” is again stressed as the way to avoid losing one's salvation: “Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (2:11).” And how can Christians conquer? “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (3:10).” Again, the implication is that if they are not faithful, their names that are already written in the Book of Life will be erased and they will forfeit “the crown of life.” Remember, the Greek word for “faith” also means “faithful.”

How CAN a Christian "Conquer"?

Problem....WHAT is a Christian?

Some would say A CHRISTIAN is a person, curious About the Teaching of Jesus Christ, and shows up to A Christian Church TO Hear and Learn ABOUT GOD and His Word JESUS and His Power CHRIST.

Similar to Jewish Disciples, Jesus chose, and they FOLLOWED Jesus Around;
Hearing, Learning, DOUBTING, Believing, Wondering, DENYING, (continuing Following, save one), Believing....or walking away, as did Judas.

Are THOSE the Christians YOU are Talking About, regarding the Revelation Churches... YOU are IMPRESSING "MUST CONQUER"??

* The Scripture is Clearly TEACHING About the CHURCHES.
* The Letters TO the Churches IS Regarding THE Leadership OF the Churches...
What the Leadership Teaches, How they Impress (or not), the Teaching of Christ Jesus, Controlling their Services, outbursts, impatience of attendees, etc.
Certainly the Leadership of the Churches Need to Keep ORDER in the Churches.

What does the Leadership Getting ON Track of their Own Teaching and Getting a handle on Controlling an out of Order Congregation HAVE TO DO WITH AN INDIVIDUAL: WHO "HAS OVERCOME the Wicked one"?

NOTHING!!!

You have presented a completely Twisted Premise to Attack "individual's" WHO Have OVERCOME.

The Church Clerics are one thing.
The Congregates are another thing.
An Individual is another thing.

In Revelations;
the Church Leaders are Being Addressed, some scolded, some praised.
the Congregates are Being addressed as a Whole, some pleasing, some NOT so much.

"Individuals" WHO have OVERCOME, are addressed "as Individuals", in Other text THAT APPLY TO Individual's...
Regardless of Church Leaders/ Or Body of Congregates.

I am No more Responsible FOR your Choices, than You are responsible FOR my Choices.

You and I could SIT side by side in the Exact same Church...
And While I have Chosen To Accept Christ Jesus' Offering...Of Victory NOW, Through Him in OVERCOMING Death and the Wicked one.....
You Obviously Believe that is NOT Possible.

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcomethem: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1John.5
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

You have much to Say Against an Individual WHO has Accepted, Christ Jesus' Offering...(and without shame of hiding) their ONCE Receiving His Gift of Salvation, as Sufficient and Forever.

But you Hide, when it comes to Your own Personal Testimony...

How MANY TIMES have YOU Personally called ON the Lord, TO Accept His Offered Gift of Salvation?

And IF you have Ever accepted HIS Gift, Why is it Insufficient?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The church is Israel now, futurism notwithstanding.

Rev 2 and three were written to 7 churches anyway not Israel

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How CAN a Christian "Conquer"?

Problem....WHAT is a Christian?

Some would say A CHRISTIAN is a person, curious About the Teaching of Jesus Christ, and shows up to A Christian Church TO Hear and Learn ABOUT GOD and His Word JESUS and His Power CHRIST.

Similar to Jewish Disciples, Jesus chose, and they FOLLOWED Jesus Around;
Hearing, Learning, DOUBTING, Believing, Wondering, DENYING, (continuing Following, save one), Believing....or walking away, as did Judas.

Are THOSE the Christians YOU are Talking About, regarding the Revelation Churches... YOU are IMPRESSING "MUST CONQUER"??

* The Scripture is Clearly TEACHING About the CHURCHES.
* The Letters TO the Churches IS Regarding THE Leadership OF the Churches...
What the Leadership Teaches, How they Impress (or not), the Teaching of Christ Jesus, Controlling their Services, outbursts, impatience of attendees, etc.
Certainly the Leadership of the Churches Need to Keep ORDER in the Churches.

What does the Leadership Getting ON Track of their Own Teaching and Getting a handle on Controlling an out of Order Congregation HAVE TO DO WITH AN INDIVIDUAL: WHO "HAS OVERCOME the Wicked one"?

NOTHING!!!

You have presented a completely Twisted Premise to Attack "individual's" WHO Have OVERCOME.

The Church Clerics are one thing.
The Congregates are another thing.
An Individual is another thing.

In Revelations;
the Church Leaders are Being Addressed, some scolded, some praised.
the Congregates are Being addressed as a Whole, some pleasing, some NOT so much.

"Individuals" WHO have OVERCOME, are addressed "as Individuals", in Other text THAT APPLY TO Individual's...
Regardless of Church Leaders/ Or Body of Congregates.

I am No more Responsible FOR your Choices, than You are responsible FOR my Choices.

You and I could SIT side by side in the Exact same Church...
And While I have Chosen To Accept Christ Jesus' Offering...Of Victory NOW, Through Him in OVERCOMING Death and the Wicked one.....
You Obviously Believe that is NOT Possible.

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcomethem: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1John.5
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

You have much to Say Against an Individual WHO has Accepted, Christ Jesus' Offering...(and without shame of hiding) their ONCE Receiving His Gift of Salvation, as Sufficient and Forever.

But you Hide, when it comes to Your on Personal Testimony...

How MANY TIMES have YOU Personally called ON the Lord, TO Accept His Offered Gift of Salvation?

And IF you have Ever accepted HIS Gift, Why is it Insufficient?

Glory to God,
Taken

Amen the overcommers are those who have come to faith in Christ and been born of him.

 

[FollowHim]

Amen the overcommers are those who have come to faith in Christ and been born of him.

3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Rev 3:3

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Rev 3:11

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Rev 3:19

5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first.
Rev 2:5

15 Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
16 Repent therefore!
Rev 2:15-16

25 Only hold on to what you have until I come.
Rev 2:25

The above actions that are given in revelation talk about repenting, being earnest, show the love of Jesus, avoid false Nicolaitans and Jezebel etc.

This is a long way from just coming to faith and being born again. If this was the actual message, you guys have nothing to worry about, you are all ok, because you are saved, the letters would not exist. Each letter to each church has a warning and an encouragement to achieve something. I therefore cannot connect what you are saying at all.

 

[Taken]

Amen the overcommits are those who have come to faith in Christ and been born of him.

I have not Yet have one, (who is Against OSAS) Answer how many times "they" have been "Saved"....

or WHY being Saved ONCE, is insufficient.

I don't EXPECT an Answer from Beserk.
It is much easier to finger point to others, (with inapplicable premises) then to Examine and be accountable for ones own self.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Rev 3:3

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Rev 3:11

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Rev 3:19

5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first.
Rev 2:5

15 Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
16 Repent therefore!
Rev 2:15-16

25 Only hold on to what you have until I come.
Rev 2:25

The above actions that are given in revelation talk about repenting, being earnest, show the love of Jesus, avoid false Nicolaitans and Jezebel etc.

This is a long way from just coming to faith and being born again. If this was the actual message, you guys have nothing to worry about, you are all ok, because you are saved, the letters would not exist. Each letter to each church has a warning and an encouragement to achieve something. I therefore cannot connect what you are saying at all.

Go Ahead and try To earn your salvation Petey

the verses were
Posted which prove it is those who are in Christ by faith who overcome

 

[Taken]

3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Rev 3:3

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Rev 3:11

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Rev 3:19

5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first.
Rev 2:5

15 Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
16 Repent therefore!
Rev 2:15-16

25 Only hold on to what you have until I come.
Rev 2:25

The above actions that are given in revelation talk about repenting, being earnest, show the love of Jesus, avoid false Nicolaitans and Jezebel etc.

This is a long way from just coming to faith and being born again. If this was the actual message, you guys have nothing to worry about, you are all ok, because you are saved, the letters would not exist. Each letter to each church has a warning and an encouragement to achieve something. I therefore cannot connect what you are saying at all.

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent.

That is redundant to an individual WHO HAS ALREADY "OVERCOME".

An individual Who Has OVERCOME, BY and through Christ Jesus...Has Already Obeyed, Already Repented, Already Been Forgiven, Already Received The Lord Gods Gift of Salvation and Quickening, Already Received Gods Internal Spirit (Power), That SEALS and Keeps what IS His, unto Himself...

What Warning, does such a person Require to DO, what is Already Accomplished?

Hold on to What I HAVE until He Comes?
Of Course.

* What I Have is His Assurance.
* What is Fact...IS the World is Full of People, preaching, advocating, promoting,
MY ASSURANCE, IS Faulty, IS untrustworthy.

You betcha, I hold on to what I have, (His Assurance), and AM NOT persuaded by men, to accept what THEY promote.

Glory to God,
Taken