The Evils of Cessationalism

[OzSpen]

How can Cessationism be evil when Paul -- by divine inspiration -- said that three specific spiritual gifts would cease, including tongues (1 Cor 13:8)?

This is a good way to create animosity among Christians, since the majority of Christians DO NOT speak in tongues.

Enoch,

Cherry picking a verse is dangerous in biblical interpretation. What does 1 Cor 13:8 state? ' Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away' (NIV).

What does the context tell us about when those gifts will cease?

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love (1 Cor 13:8-13 NIV).​

I often hear from cessationists that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit ceased when the canon of Scripture of the NT was finalised. There is nothing in the context that states it relates to the written word of God.

What it does say about the gifts ceasing is comparing a reflection in a mirror NOW with seeing (Him) fact to face THEN. When we are in the presence of Jesus - face to face with him - the gifts will be ended.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We have a perfect and complete Bible. And that is what those three gifts relate to -- divine revelation.

Enoch,

Where is that stated in 1 Cor 13?

Oz

 

[rockytopva]

Our dear Pastor Vaught... Who was North Carolina Pentecostal Holiness from the top of his head to the soles of his feet. Here are a few videos of him in the North Carolina spirit of Pentecostal Holiness church.... Complete with shouting, joy, and worship! My goodness! How I miss the North Carolinian ways!

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch, Where is that stated in 1 Cor 13? Oz

Not "stated" but taught.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies [DIVINE REVELATIONS], they shall fail; whether there be tongues [SUPERNATURAL LANGUAGES], they shall cease; whether there be knowledge [SUPERNATURAL KNOWLEDGE], it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [TRUE WHILE THE BIBLE WAS INCOMPLETE, HENCE THE NEED FOR THOSE THREE GIFTS]

10 But when that which is perfect* [COMPLETE] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

*Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.

This verse could not possible apply to Christ, and the context makes it clearly applicable to Scripture. Paul anticipated the completion of Scripture prophetically.

 

[Berserk]

How can Cessationism be evil when Paul -- by divine inspiration -- said that three specific spiritual gifts would cease, including tongues (1 Cor 13:8)? This is a good way to create animosity among Christians, since the majority of Christians DO NOT speak in tongues.

Your ghastly misinterpretation of 1 Cor. 13:8 must be dismissed as cultic heresy because it is rejected by all neutral academic book commentaries on 1 Corinthians. I challenge you to find a single academic commentary that agrees with your screed.
If you had only read the next few verses! Paul makes it clear that these gifts end only when we see Christ "face to face (vs. 12)," that is at His 2nd coming. No academic commentary defends the silly view that "that which is perfect" refers to the completed New Testament canon! The same role of spiritual gifts equipping the church until the 2nd coming is made in chap. 1:
"You are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ...so that you may be blameless on the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:7-8)." So the gifts of the Spirit anticipate the 2nd Coming and remain valid until then.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Enoch,

Where is that stated in 1 Cor 13?

Oz

it says we know in part, when that which is in part becomes complete, they ceased.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Not "stated" but taught.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies [DIVINE REVELATIONS], they shall fail; whether there be tongues [SUPERNATURAL LANGUAGES], they shall cease; whether there be knowledge [SUPERNATURAL KNOWLEDGE], it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [TRUE WHILE THE BIBLE WAS INCOMPLETE, HENCE THE NEED FOR THOSE THREE GIFTS]

10 But when that which is perfect* [COMPLETE] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

*Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.

This verse could not possible apply to Christ, and the context makes it clearly applicable to Scripture. Paul anticipated the completion of Scripture prophetically.

Yes...solid post;););)

 

[Enoch111]

I challenge you to find a single academic commentary that agrees with your screed.

Since when did *academic* commentaries become the standard? Academics mean nothing when it comes to spiritual truth, and many academics are rank apostates.

However, there are well-established commentaries (such as Jamieson. Fausset, and Brown) which say exactly what I have said:

'A primary fulfilment of Paul's statement took place when the Church attained its maturity; then "tongues" entirely "ceased," and "prophesyings" and "knowledge," so far as they were supernatural gifts of the Spirit, were superseded as no longer required when the ordinary preaching of the word, and the Scriptures of the New Testament collected together, had become established institutions.'

 

[Berserk]

Enoch: "However, there are well-established commentaries (such as Jamieson. Fausset, and Brown) which say exactly what I have said:"
It is giggle-worthy for you to actually cite this commentary written by pastors, not scholars, in 1871 long before the age and advancements of modern biblical scholarship!

Enoch: "Since when did *academic* commentaries become the standard? Academics mean nothing when it comes to spiritual truth, and many academics are rank apostates."

Since when? Since it really dawned on modern Christians that the Bible was actually written in Hebrew and Greek and on the highly corrupt text of the KJV on which Jamiesson, Fausset, and Brown rely. Many excellent modern academic commentaries are written by solid Evangelicals and other Christians and none of them agree with your cultic interpretation. But many of the best Greek and Hebrew scholars are non-Christians, just as many of the best scientists and surgeons are unbelievers. Yet even people of your ilk rely on them to meet your needs! So I reissue my challenge: find even 1 modern academic book commentary specifically on 1 Corinthians that agrees with you. You can't and that fact makes your interpretation a cultic heresy propagated by the myopic anti-Charismatic, anti-intellectual Fundamentalist Ghetto!

 

[Hope in God]

Prophecy has not ceased. I would agree that a word of prophecy is too often not from God, but the gift remains, as do healings, tongues, and words of wisdom and knowledge. These were never taken from the church. In reality, it is the commandments and doctrines of men that have caused them to cease in many denominations.

I wish the Charismatic Movement hadn't morphed into a sideshow of crazy manifestations and those who chose to follow signs and prosperity preachers as it is today. Thankfully, folks are moving away from much of that old extremism, although it still exists.

When worshipping in a Spirit filled assembly I look forward to times when the worship quiets and we begin to sing in tongues. It's very stirring and inspirational. Oftentimes, a prophecy will follow our singing in the Spirit. It is the best part of any Spirit filled gathering. Some folks have gotten healed merely by the presence of God drawn to the meeting through worship.

Luckily for me, I was saved in '72, after talking to a fellow seaman while deployed to the Caribbean on a destroyer. I asked Jesus to forgive me and confessed He rose from the dead. There wasn't an evangelical person onboard, so I wasn't taught against the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, I may not have gotten Spirit filled and spoke in tongues.

My receiving the infilling took place following a meeting in a beachfront house full of long-haired, sandal wearing, well tanned believers, none of them older than their twenties or thirties. As the Scriptures in Acts states, I was asked, "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" to which I said, "No." Did I want it? Sure! And so a brother laid his hand on me and led me in prayer and almost immediately I began speaking in tongues....and I still speak in tongues today. It is not gibberish, but rather, it is the Spirit of God making intercession for me. I don't always know what to pray, so the Holy Spirit does it for me, and praises the Lord.
Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

 

[Berserk]

Hope: "I wish the Charismatic Movement hadn't morphed into a sideshow of crazy manifestations and those who chose to follow signs and prosperity preachers as it is today. Thankfully, folks are moving away from much of that old extremism, although it still exists."

Remember, Satan counterfeits authentic spirituality and spiritual movements precisely because they are so potent in serving God.
Notice, too, that anti-Charismatics like Enoch and CoreIssue lack the intellectual integrity to seek out and read modern academic commentaries on specific Bible books that address issues under debate, and yet, still blindly pontificate against well established biblical insights. In Enoch's case, the phrase "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:8 is linked to the 2nd Coming by the phrase, "then face to face" in 13:12. This is universally recognized by modern Bible scholars and it also just happens to be common sense. In the first and 2nd century Jesus's saying about blasphemy against the Holy spirit is rightly understood as a rejection of divinely inspired contemporary ecstatic prophesying (so Didache and Irenaeus, et al).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, I say, and it is because it is obvious.

I'm not here to represent Bunyan, but Christ and to expose your false accusations and silly, callow misapplications of Scripture.

You're not representing the latter well, that is, Christ, in your religion, but are actually showing yourself to be more akin to diablos; accusing the brothers.

And falsely.

When was the last time a crippled healed and walked by someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone was raised from the dead by just having someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone walked on water?

All these were clearly done in biblical times. Yet, I have never witnessed them. But let someone babble and that's a clear sign the sign gifts have not ceased!

 

[Berserk]

Sovereign: "When was the last time a crippled healed and walked by someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone was raised from the dead by just having someone laying hands on them?"

You just need to leave your myopic Fundamentalist Ghetto and get out more. Smith Wigglesworth slammed a corpse against a wall in the presence of several witnesses and his prayer of faith brought the dead man back to life. Have you ever watched the movie "Faith Like Potatoes?" At its conclusion the evangelist is shown healing a Muslim cripple and the previously hostile Muslims who regularly saw the cripple begging in the public square were so awed that many of them got saved through this miracle! Our small weekly prayer group often sees miraculous healings in response to our prayers.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sovereign: "When was the last time a crippled healed and walked by someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone was raised from the dead by just having someone laying hands on them?"

You just need to leave your myopic Fundamentalist Ghetto and get out more. Smith Wigglesworth slammed a corpse against a wall in the presence of several witnesses and his prayer of faith brought the dead man back to life. Have you ever watched the movie "Faith Like Potatoes?" At its conclusion the evangelist is shown healing a Muslim cripple and the previously hostile Muslims who regularly saw the cripple begging in the public square were so awed that many of them got saved through this miracle! Our small weekly prayer group often sees miraculous healings in response to our prayers.

Benny Hinn has healed many, too.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Enoch,

Cherry picking a verse is dangerous in biblical interpretation. What does 1 Cor 13:8 state? ' Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away' (NIV).

What does the context tell us about when those gifts will cease?

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love (1 Cor 13:8-13 NIV).​

I often hear from cessationists that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit ceased when the canon of Scripture of the NT was finalised. There is nothing in the context that states it relates to the written word of God.

What it does say about the gifts ceasing is comparing a reflection in a mirror NOW with seeing (Him) fact to face THEN. When we are in the presence of Jesus - face to face with him - the gifts will be ended.

Oz

Hey, Oz! Always great to see you!

I was having this same discussion with Enoch the other day. I'm still waiting for responses to Posts #79 and #80.
So how are we seeing right now?

 

[Hidden In Him]

No academic commentary defends the silly view that "that which is perfect" refers to the completed New Testament canon!

I found it a strange argument as well. It makes the apostle out to be pointing to the church still being here 350 years later at the very least, and thus prophesying that the return of Christ was in no way imminent, which seems to be completely in disagreement with what he wrote in both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

 

[SkyWriting]

How can Cessationism be evil when
Paul -- by divine inspiration --
said that three specific spiritual gifts would cease, including tongues (1 Cor 13:8)?

This is a good way to create animosity among Christians, since the majority of Christians DO NOT speak in tongues.

Paul also claims salvation before faith, and that Jesus converted him personally.
But Jesus doesn't seem to convert anyone else that way. Paul makes other claims too.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

When was the last time a crippled healed and walked by someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone was raised from the dead by just having someone laying hands on them?
When was the last time someone walked on water?

All these were clearly done in biblical times. Yet, I have never witnessed them. But let someone babble and that's a clear sign the sign gifts have not ceased!

They think since they get all worked up in the flesh during a service and feel accomplished and excited that they're right with God and others aren't. Baals prophets did the same thing, screaming, yelling, excitement, pleading, dancing, jibberish.

Charismatic chaos is a lie. It's all a show, all about being the center of attention as you notice all the glory and attention is directed at them. Do you ever see Christ glorified? No. They think the Holy Spirit glorifies himself, and them, when his ministry is to glorify Christ. John 16:14. Not to mention the horrendous preaching by taking the word out of context, and it's almost always about what they can get, do, become, appealing to the flesh, appealing to covetousness, condemning others &c.

 

[OzSpen]

Not "stated" but taught.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies [DIVINE REVELATIONS], they shall fail; whether there be tongues [SUPERNATURAL LANGUAGES], they shall cease; whether there be knowledge [SUPERNATURAL KNOWLEDGE], it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [TRUE WHILE THE BIBLE WAS INCOMPLETE, HENCE THE NEED FOR THOSE THREE GIFTS]

10 But when that which is perfect* [COMPLETE] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

*Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.

This verse could not possible apply to Christ, and the context makes it clearly applicable to Scripture. Paul anticipated the completion of Scripture prophetically.

Enoch,

I find that to be your imposition on the text. Nowhere in 1 Cor 13 is 'that which is perfect/complete' stated or inferred to be the completion of the canon of Scripture.

However, as I stated in #41, 1 Cor 13:8-13 teaches that the gifts ceasing is comparing a reflection in a mirror NOW with seeing (Him) face to face THEN. When we are in the presence of Jesus - face to face with him - the gifts will be ended.

I do not find cessationism associated with the completion of the canon in Scripture.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

it says we know in part, when that which is in part becomes complete, they ceased.

Anthony,

When do you understand that will be?

Oz