The Explanation Of Speaking In Tongues

[revturmoil]

Had to go and didn't get a chance to finish or edit my last reply.

The entire chapter of 1 Corinthian's 2 supports the idea that we should use spiritual common sense in understanding all spiritual things. I just read William Barclay's commentary on it and this is a great chapter. The main words in the Greek are impressive and it would take no less than a day anyway to really study it. I can tell you that the the chapter expresses a concern for using the prudent use of knowledge in understanding all the spiritual gifts. The only way we can discern whether a gift, (or tongues for the sake of argument) is truly from the Spirit is by the evidence experienced in the event. How can we prove that what was spoken was indeed from God? What evidence is there other than the verification of the interpretation! We are told not only to test the spirits but also use wisdom in understanding and discerning these things. The problems Paul saw in the Corinthian church are the same I see in the church today and the bigest problem was the misuse and misunderstanding of 'tongues'!

 

[[email protected]]

Previously I posted:
This is exactly what I meant when I referred to children in the play box throwing sand at one another.
At this point, a quotation of scripture will be met by another quotation of scripture to justify the opposite POV.

My question is to ask whether one believes that the Holy Spirit can have an effect upon the human body, specifically tongues, healing, revelation & inspiration, salvation and RESURRECTION.

DO YOU BELIEVE?

PS No scripture references required.

I believe the Holy Spirit has an effect on the human spirit and in turn the gifts are administered. Whatever happens to the body afterwards is up to the Spirit but any of it must be verified! In order for people to believe in any gift of the Spirit they must be validated and that's not difficult to do with tongues. The only way I've seen tongues authenticated was with the three Muslim's who had accepted Christ. The message from the tongues speaker and interpreter was meant specifically for the Muslim's. They're visa's were renewed and were headed back to Crete in a few days. This happened almost 40 years ago and the message was for them to stand fast in the faith.

I take that as a "yes, BUT" and by inference ... "not for our day"...basically you're hedging your bets...sandbagging...expressing doubts about spirituality as experienced in the first century and by a denomination that you think is a bunch of losers. I've been there and heard it all.

This sort of spiritual arrogance sets the established denominations apart from those who innocently tread upon the path of Christ. The innocents don't know any better, hence they believe AND ACT. I was a part of meetings and discussions in the early 1970's during the last great national revival. During those meetings, denominational leaders decided WITH PURPOSE to squash, ignor and otherwise reject the acts of the Holy Spirit so as to further their own agenda (gay leadership, liberation theology, situational ethics and personal improvement, and dare I say endless fund raisers).

Let's be brutally honest. Either the Holy Spirit is alive and well today or its gone off to Never Never Land with the lost boys/apostles. Which is it?

At what point have the Holy Spirit's blessings been removed from the church and potential experience of all (all of the gifts, not just the one that's hard to swallow.....how about healing and prophetic utterance and the BIG one - resurrection)?

Just because one group of people chooses to believe it and another group chooses not, doesn't mean it is invalid for all.

 

[jiggyfly]

I think I get what Jiggyfly was saying... correct me if I'm wrong Jiggy...

It does say the natural man can't receive the things of the Spirit because they seem foolish... and speaking in tongues is from the Spirit... so if speaking in tongues seems foolish to someone... I guess there's a chance they might be seeing things from the perspective of a natural man and not spiritually...

Bingo Robbie! In an earlier post Kaoticprofit made the comment that the only way the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues could be verified as genuine was by an unbeliever.

 

[revturmoil]

Previously I posted:
This is exactly what I meant when I referred to children in the play box throwing sand at one another.
At this point, a quotation of scripture will be met by another quotation of scripture to justify the opposite POV.

My question is to ask whether one believes that the Holy Spirit can have an effect upon the human body, specifically tongues, healing, revelation & inspiration, salvation and RESURRECTION.

DO YOU BELIEVE?

PS No scripture references required.


I take that as a "yes, BUT" and by inference ... "not for our day"...basically you're hedging your bets...sandbagging...expressing doubts about spirituality as experienced in the first century and by a denomination that you think is a bunch of losers. I've been there and heard it all.

This sort of spiritual arrogance sets the established denominations apart from those who innocently tread upon the path of Christ. The innocents don't know any better, hence they believe AND ACT. I was a part of meetings and discussions in the early 1970's during the last great national revival. During those meetings, denominational leaders decided WITH PURPOSE to squash, ignor and otherwise reject the acts of the Holy Spirit so as to further their own agenda (gay leadership, liberation theology, situational ethics and personal improvement, and dare I say endless fund raisers).

Let's be brutally honest. Either the Holy Spirit is alive and well today or its gone off to Never Never Land with the lost boys/apostles. Which is it?

At what point have the Holy Spirit's blessings been removed from the church and potential experience of all (all of the gifts, not just the one that's hard to swallow.....how about healing and prophetic utterance and the BIG one - resurrection)?

Just because one group of people chooses to believe it and another group chooses not, doesn't mean it is invalid for all.

I'm not sandbagging. I answered your question. That is if I understand your question. Maybe you should ask it differently.

You said,
My question is to ask whether one believes that the Holy Spirit can have an effect upon the human body, specifically tongues, healing, revelation & inspiration, salvation and RESURRECTION.

I replied,
I believe the Holy Spirit has an effect on the human spirit and in turn the gifts are administered. Whatever happens to the body afterwards is up to the Spirit but any of it must be verified.

What's the problem?

I can be more specific if you try again!

 

[revturmoil]

Let's be brutally honest. Either the Holy Spirit is alive and well today or its gone off to Never Never Land with the lost boys/apostles. Which is it?

The questions really should be.

Is tongues as necessary today as they were then? How do they truly work? Is what we hear an administration of the Spirit of God or is it of man? I'm not in denial that tongues are real and necessary.

Tongues have nothing to do with God's Spirit being alive or not. I believe in them but not the way the Pentecostals do. I've had enough hours studying it and probably experienced it over a hundred a times in church. Only twice can I say the were real and verified.

At what point have the Holy Spirit's blessings been removed from the church and potential experience of all (all of the gifts, not just the one that's hard to swallow.....how about healing and prophetic utterance and the BIG one - resurrection)?

It's not that any aspect of the Holy Spirit has been removed but what was and is the gift was necessary for? The church today is in a much different situation than it was then. And God did work more miraculously in the churches infancy for it's advancement. In a congregation of people all of the same language, I don't see how tongues are necessary. But back then when there were people of several different languages listening to a disciple preach Christ, tongues edifyed the people because they saw the miracle at work. The words that were spoken were the words that were interpreted thus edifying the church and a sign to the unbeliever.
To better answer your qquestion. Tongues are used in the church today the way I described and it's usually experienced by people doing God's work in foreign countries esp. third world countries with a multi-lingual people present.

Just because one group of people chooses to believe it and another group chooses not, doesn't mean it is invalid for all.

Of course that's true. But that group must have the correct understanding of it just like the rapture doctrine. It's not a question with me whether tongues are real or not. The problem is how they are used, understood, and verified.

 

[Robbie]

When it comes to the gifts of the Spirit people should probably spend more time worry about themselves having them and less times trying to figure out if other people are faking it or doing it wrong... it reminds of this job I used to have... the guy who was the most judgmental and worried about whether everyone else was doing their job or doing it right also happened to be the person that never seemed to be doing anything...

 

[revturmoil]

When it comes to the gifts of the Spirit people should probably spend more time worry about themselves having them and less times trying to figure out if other people are faking it or doing it wrong... it reminds of this job I used to have... the guy who was the most judgmental and worried about whether everyone else was doing their job or doing it right also happened to be the person that never seemed to be doing anything...

This is a forum. It's where we discuss these things and nobody is worried about anything except maybe you. If you don't have anything constructie to bring to the discussion, then why even complain?

 

[Robbie]

I see pointing out the futility and dangers in trying to figure out if other people are faking it or doing it wrong when it comes to Spiritual things and the positivity that could come out of focusing on whether we're walking in the Spirit as being constructive...

This is a forum where we discuss opinions... those are my opinions... and just like you're not the authority of who's speaking in tongues the right way... you're not the authority of what opinions people are allowed to share on this forum...

 

[[email protected]]

I replied,
I believe the Holy Spirit has an effect on the human spirit and in turn the gifts are administered. Whatever happens to the body afterwards is up to the Spirit but any of it must be verified.

What do you mean by 'verified'? Must we all stand around on resurrection day and wait for some committee to verify our documents before entering paradise?

 

[revturmoil]

What do you mean by 'verified'? Must we all stand around on resurrection day and wait for some committee to verify our documents before entering paradise?

I keep repeating the fact that tongues is the easiest gift to counterfeit. So how can anyone prove or believe tongues are in fact from God and not counterfeit? Just because someone speaks in tongues doesn't mean they're real. There's a real purpose for them and one true way of their administration. Tongues are of no use in the church unless they are spoken in an earthly tongue. And again, the only way we can be assured they are real and from God is by the confirmation that what was spoken is indeed what was interpreted. Every gift has that element of verification in order for people to see they are from God. The only way tongues can be confirmed and valid is if they are spoken in an earthly language.

 

[IanLC]

Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 1Corinthians 14:39

I know by personal experience because I do speak in tongues that is from God. I was taught that there are two types of tongues. One when the Holy Spirit utters through you and makes intercession for you to God. It is a language known between you and God. The other type of tongues is meant for the edification of the body of Christ. Most of the time when you speak there is an interpreter or God gives you an interpretation. When praises go up to both tongues are acceptable. But when you do it to disrupt, interrupt and cause confusion in the service then your tongues are not from God and needs to cease. Speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit needs to be done during the worship service in decency and order. When you are by yourself, at a prayer meeting, tarrying service, etc. where ther is no formal program speak s much as you want under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt. Prophecy is the greater of the gift of tongues without an interpreter. If you speak and God gives you interpretation or there is an interpreter who interprets your tongues then it is equal with the gift of prophecy.

Shalom and God bless!

 

[Foreigner]

I keep repeating the fact that tongues is the easiest gift to counterfeit.

-- The ease with which you feel tongues can be counterfitted does not negate the fact that they are true.
An individual's abuse / misuse / falsification of God's gift does not negate the fact that it is....well, God's gift.

So how can anyone prove or believe tongues are in fact from God and not counterfeit?

-- By it's fruits. If someone speaks in tongues and someone interprets and it does not come to pass or is proven wrong....guess what, false.
But I have been in church where someone has spoken out in tongues and afterwards someone had done an interpretation - a very specific interpretation - and it has come to pass specifically as prophecied. These have pertained to individuals, the church itself, the town the church in in, etc.

Just because someone speaks in tongues doesn't mean they're real.

-- So just because someone does it.......doesn't mean it's real?

Tongues are of no use in the church unless they are spoken in an earthly tongue.

-- Actually, for corporate benefit within a church, they just have to be 'interpreted' in an earthly tongue.

The only way tongues can be confirmed and valid is if they are spoken in an earthly language.

-- Over history there have been thousands of languages spoken. Today in Africa alone they speak roughly 2000 different languages.

Just because a language isn't recognized by you when spoken in church doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate language.

The first time I was in Saudi Arabia and heard Arabic spoken at a normal speed by a native speak speaker, it sounded, to me, just.......like.......gibberish.

It didn't sound anything like the text book said it would and my first impression was, "He is making that up as he goes."

Just because you don't recognize a language being spoken in church by someone does not mean it is not an earthly langauge.



What it comes down to is this:

If it is real within the church, you will know by the fruits.

As far as individually, you can speak in tongues during your prayer time to God.

UHCIA is right when he says, "One when the Holy Spirit utters through you and makes intercession for you to God. It is a language known between you and God."

When you are in your prayer time, praising God, laying things at His feet, there are times when you open your mouth and the Holy Spirit will speak on your behalf, telling God exactly what you cannot find words for or what you yourself don't realize you need.

I laughed when someone here mentioned that is the devil interjecting himself into your prayer time when you are speaking in tongues. Ridiculous.

Again, you know by the fruits. Peace, a closer bond with God, answered prayers, etc.

If you don't do it, that's fine. Are you still a Christian? Of course.

Can you still be a great Christian and fulfill all God wants for you? Absolutely.

Is doing this necessary for salvation? Of course not.

But you are missing out on a personal, intimate dimension that can change your relationship with God in an incredible way.

 

[revturmoil]

-- The ease with which you feel tongues can be counterfitted does not negate the fact that they are true.

Correct. Only that most of them today are counterfeit.


An individual's abuse / misuse / falsification of God's gift does not negate the fact that it is....well, God's gift.

All of God's gifts can be verified that they are indeed from Him. Tongues are no different. It's so easy to counterfeit that it's been proven hundreds of times where one stages a tongues speaking and someone who has no clue of it interprets it.

--

By it's fruits. If someone speaks in tongues and someone interprets and it does not come to pass or is proven wrong....guess what, false.　

That's not true either because most tongues are not prophetic. The only way to validate the true gift of tongues is to prove that what was said is in fact what was interpreted.

But I have been in church where someone has spoken out in tongues and afterwards someone had done an interpretation - a very specific interpretation - and it has come to pass specifically as prophecied. These have pertained to individuals, the church itself, the town the church in in, etc.

But can you prove that what was spoken was in fact what was interpreted? If you can't it was likely bogus and self fulfilling!

Actually, for corporate benefit within a church, they just have to be 'interpreted' in an earthly tongue.

-- Over history there have been thousands of languages spoken. Today in Africa alone they speak roughly 2000 different languages.

Just because a language isn't recognized by you when spoken in church doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate language.

I guess you don't understand what I'm saying about tongues. Those 2000 languages are a good reason why tongues are spoken in an unknown earthly language and also interpreted in another earthly language just like it did during the time of the apostles. That's the only way to prove it and why it's meant for unbelievers.

The first time I was in Saudi Arabia and heard Arabic spoken at a normal speed by a native speak speaker, it sounded, to me, just.......like.......gibberish.

It didn't sound anything like the text book said it would and my first impression was, "He is making that up as he goes."

Just because you don't recognize a language being spoken in church by someone does not mean it is not an earthly langauge.

What it comes down to is this:

If it is real within the church, you will know by the fruits.

Fruits have nothing to do with speaking in tongues. Tongues are not prophecy.

The fruit of speaking in tongues is in the edification of the church through the witness of the unbeliever. There's no miracle in tongues when the unbeliever can't determine that what was said is what was interpreted.

As far as individually, you can speak in tongues during your prayer time to God.

UHCIA is right when he says, "One when the Holy Spirit utters through you and makes intercession for you to God. It is a language known between you and God."

When you are in your prayer time, praising God, laying things at His feet, there are times when you open your mouth and the Holy Spirit will speak on your behalf, telling God exactly what you cannot find words for or what you yourself don't realize you need.

I've never heard a person pray in tongues in a language that had any structure to it. Speaking with tongues of angels appars to be forbidden in public and meant for you personally.

I laughed when someone here mentioned that is the devil interjecting himself into your prayer time when you are speaking in tongues. Ridiculous.

Again, you know by the fruits. Peace, a closer bond with God, answered prayers, etc.

If you don't do it, that's fine. Are you still a Christian? Of course.

Can you still be a great Christian and fulfill all God wants for you? Absolutely.

Is doing this necessary for salvation? Of course not.

But you are missing out on a personal, intimate dimension that can change your relationship with God in an incredible way.

Nobody is missing out on anything by not speaking in tongues except maybe a good show! . Peace or a closer bond with God has nothing to do with tongues. 99% of the time it's counterfeit. So I want nothing to do with it because I experienced it for real twice with foreigners in a foreign country. I saw the real thing and heard the structure of a real language and so did the unbelievers. It was proven that what was spoken in a Greek tongues was the same as what was spoken in English. I just have a problem with anything else. The problems with tongues today is the same problems Paul dealt with then.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I believe.

Seems to me that speaking in tongues is basically speaking another language, more likely a human language. The speaker doesn't always understand, and the listeners don't always understand. So, that's why the order was set by Paul (God?).

I think the part where Paul says, "or tongues of angels" I think he was just showing it doesn't matter,,, language of man (being the simpler, and angels being something holy) So, that it doesn't matter which language. If no one understands you're only talking to God, Later it also states, "Talking into the Air" As in the only one who understands you is God. Reason being that, there's no one there that speaks the particular language you're gifted with.

You can pray in tongues yes, I believe so.

There is nothing in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. Who ever it was that said it was right, Jesus intercedes for us.

Someone mentioned (not the first time I heard it) but praying in tongues is so the devil wont hear....... very very sorry but that made me LOL

Point blank,, "If God be for us, who can be against us?"

So, if you like to have a church where everyone is speaking in tongues,,,, sorry you're doing it wrong! Check the Bible.
If you think that those who don't speak in tongues isn't saved,,,,, sorry, you're wrong again! Check the Bible.
If you think the purpose for speaking in tongues is to not let the devil hear what you say,,,,,, sorry, you guessed it, you're wrong! Check the Bible.

Now, I ask this question,,


If Paul states that speaking in tongues is not for believers but for non believers,,,,,,,, Why are some using it as a sign for believers?????????

 

[[email protected]]

I keep repeating the fact that tongues is the easiest gift to counterfeit. So how can anyone prove or believe tongues are in fact from God and not counterfeit? Just because someone speaks in tongues doesn't mean they're real. There's a real purpose for them and one true way of their administration. Tongues are of no use in the church unless they are spoken in an earthly tongue. And again, the only way we can be assured they are real and from God is by the confirmation that what was spoken is indeed what was interpreted. Every gift has that element of verification in order for people to see they are from God. The only way tongues can be confirmed and valid is if they are spoken in an earthly language.

Ok, so who is qualified to 'verify' an incident of healing, revelation, wisdom, or even spiritual regeneration?

Is all this some expression of the feeble minded, an elaborate hoax forming the basis of a false ideology?

If so, then the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is also a lie for many refuse to accept the 'verification' of His life as well.

Millions of people have 'verified' that these gifts and manifestations are given by the Holy Spirit to us today.
There are testimonies to fill a library of books, yet others discredit the 'verification' as the rantings of the lunatic fringe.

If there are no gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation today, as many so state, then neither is salvation available or possible to anyone since it is the chief gift.

If tongues cannot be 'verified', then neither can salvation be verified since it is an entirely subjective experience.

Who is qualified to verify the work of the Holy Spirit?
God alone.
If God alone, then who are we to judge?
If God be a fraud then we are all alike guilty of a terrible fantasy.

If the testimony of brothers in the faith is not sufficient to stand as 'verified evidence', then the Bible itself stands in disrepute and we are each guilty of fraud, deceit and self-delusion for nothing of which we write is thereby legitimate.

I stand ready to testify before the church, the world, the demons of hell and the holy angels of God that I have seen and heard the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation, including the gift of tongues. Who here will call me a liar and how do you propose to 'verify' that I am not speaking the truth?

In my opinion, all this bickering and opposition to tongues is merely an expression of spiritual envy and the pretense of an authority which is itself a deception of the unholy. Those who deny the work of the Holy Spirit are guilty of an unforgiveable sin because they have taken it upon themselves to judge God. They have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and their end is to join the accuser of the brethern in the eternal flames.

Which is it?
Are none willing to choose?
I think not, for it is more fun to argue and accuse than to accept the truth.

The alternative is to deny Christianity's hope for mankind and I dare say that there are many ready to do that very thing.

 

[Foreigner]

"Nobody is missing out on anything by not speaking in tongues except maybe a good show! . Peace or a closer bond with God has nothing to do with tongues. 99% of the time it's counterfeit." - kaoticprofit



-- Isn't it amazing that those that never have done something, claim that those that have...have never really done it either?

It makes you laugh...and feel bad for them.

Just curious though, kaoticprofit, how did you come up with your out-of-thin-air statistic that "99% of the time it's counterfit" ?

Thank you though for admitting that it can indeed be real...even if by your own fictionalized statistics it is only 1% of the time.




.

 

[jiggyfly]

Nobody is missing out on anything by not speaking in tongues except maybe a good show! . Peace or a closer bond with God has nothing to do with tongues. 99% of the time it's counterfeit. So I want nothing to do with it because I experienced it for real twice with foreigners in a foreign country. I saw the real thing and heard the structure of a real language and so did the unbelievers. It was proven that what was spoken in a Greek tongues was the same as what was spoken in English. I just have a problem with anything else. The problems with tongues today is the same problems Paul dealt with then.

A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. 1Cor. 14:4
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]So Kaotic, you feel that being strengthened in the Lord is nothing?
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