The false gospel of grace

[justbyfaith]

It makes you see the entire chapter. I don't know if that's what farouk has in mind, but it works for me!

It's good except you have to click on it and go to another screen to see the scripture quoted; rather than just roll the mouse over it and be able to see the verse in question.

 

[marks]

It's good except you have to click on it and go to another screen to see the scripture quoted; rather than just roll the mouse over it and be able to see the verse in question.

I have a mouse, and I know how to use it! Besides, I don't think @farouk would mind me saying it's more profitable to read a chapter of the Bible than any of our posts. Just sayin' . . .

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I believe verse 25 says what it says. 25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Obviously you do not want the last 7 words to mean anything.

It is not safe to make a theology out of one line of Scripture. Read the Book of James and say that refraining from sin is not important. Read the epistles of 1,2 and 3 John and try to explain why he speaks about refraining from sin. Yes, he does say that, if we do sin, Jesus would cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) God understands that we could succumb to temptation, in a moment of weakness.

You certainly have no peace thinking you have to be perfect and not sin in order to go to Heaven. No one can be at peace knowing that every time they commit a sin they are condemned for it. You think those in Christ are taking the easy way out but that is the flesh talking. To the flesh paying for your sin is the easy way out because in your heart you know you are still in your sins.

Now, that is just weird--about as weird as those who were telling the Apostle Paul that the more one sins, the more grace (see the Book of Romans). He very firmly put that thinking away. No one is saying that any of us are thinking that we don't need "the grace through faith" that is our salvation. I do not think perfection is possible in this world, nor do I think that I am perfect.

Those that believe as you do had better thank God for making a way for them to not be condemned for their sins of their flesh because ALL SIN JUST AS MUCH AS THE NEXT PERSON. Only the self-righteous think they do not sin.

No, not everyone "sins as much as the next person". You do not quite understand the whole of the gospel. Saying that we are no longer slaves to sin is at the heart of the gospel. Any and all sin is offensive to God--but He has made a way for our sins to be covered. If we truly love God, we will seek to please Him--and He hates sin. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Say what you will, and I am sure you will, but you are blinded by your religious ideas that you can save yourself by what you do or not do.

This is a totally unfounded accusation. We understand that we are powerless to save ourselves.

I am truly sorry for you but I will no longer waste my time on someone who thinks they never sin in their flesh any longer.. You can reply and post all you wish but you will have to find someone who is naive enough to think they never sin in their flesh.

Who said THAT!??! No one who has read the Bible for any length of time lacks understanding that they sin--but they are cognizant of what sins they do have and they confess, seeking God's forgiveness.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

So if I preach and teach that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for all the sins of the world I must love to sin and it is my every purpose to sin and I must have a seared conscience.

You people ought to be ashamed. You shut to door to Heaven by your insistence that a child of God must not sin in the flesh. Why? Because no man is without sin in the flesh as long as they live in the flesh. You want them to give up hope in Christ.

God judges His children and He does not take it kindly that those who claim Christ and then want to do it themselves.

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

IMHO yours is the fake gospel because it does not save anyone. Nor does it clear the conscience of those that sin in the flesh because they do not see their sin any longer.

I don't think you understand at all what we are saying. Which one of us said that we do not sin? And accusing us of wanting others to "give up hope in Christ" is terribly misguided on your part.

 

[farouk]

So, with the flesh we serve the law of sin...however not much later Paul writes that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
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What I mean by practically is, that I speak it to counter the concept that we are positionally righteous and that we can be counted as perfect and righteous without it being true in the practical sense (although there is some truth to this concept, practical righteousness is not far behind if positional righteousness be the reality)...in other words, in reality as opposed to God looking at us and turning a blind eye to our sin(s).

So then, when the Bible says I am sanctified, it means that I am truly sanctified; it is not talking about the Lord looking at me through rose-colored glasses. There is another word for that....justification. So then, let's get our definitions right.

Romans 8 does include the phrase about walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Paul also speaks in Romans of 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith', at the beginning and at the end of the Epistle.

 

[marks]

So, with the flesh we serve the law of sin...however not much later Paul writes that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
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What I mean by practically is, that I speak it to counter the concept that we are positionally righteous and that we can be counted as perfect and righteous without it being true in the practical sense (although there is some truth to this concept, practical righteousness is not far behind if positional righteousness be the reality)...in other words, in reality as opposed to God looking at us and turning a blind eye to our sin(s).

So then, when the Bible says I am sanctified, it means that I am truly sanctified; it is not talking about the Lord looking at me through rose-colored glasses. There is another word for that....justification. So then, let's get our definitions right.

I would add that God also says that we are ARE righteous and holy, that is, the new man, the new creation. It actually is true. But it's not always seen.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

....to keep you under the bondage of sin. The false gospel of grace is one that has been cleverly devised for these last days which is almost impossible to differentiate from the true gospel. This is because the false gospel of grace uses exactly the same vocabulary that the true gospel uses with some serious spin doctoring.

Satan has basically invented a false gospel of grace that is every sinner's dream come true. Of course we are all sinners, but evil comes and using this false gospel of grace, tells Christians they are free to sin and delve into iniquity to the point there are now two classes of sinners these days which are 180 degrees apart when it comes to being under the dominion of sin in Satans lair. One class of sinners likes it that way, and the others want out from sin and its dominion.

The devil has designed this false gospel of grace for the first group. The false gospel tells sinners that they are in good and regular standing in their sin, which is what some have always wanted to hear, that Jesus saves us while we keep on sinning and continue happily in its bondage.

The true gospel is the news for every sinner who is fed up with sin and its bondage, and longing to be set free from its penalty and power and that gospel is sin shall not have dominion over us. When we accept Christ we do it with the understanding of what sin has done to us, its true price and the comprehension of its ultimate result of eternal death. We dont want its corruption to ourselves and its destructive influence over us, so we come to Christ who cleanses us from its wages and its dominion. That is the true gospel, to be alive in Christ not dead in sin, to be set free by Him from sins wages and so that sin is no longer our master, destroying and corrupting us with its evil.....

Scripture is clear on what the true gospel is, not a license to sin but a way to become free from sin and iniquity..

Romans 6:1-14

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

From Mat. 5:19-20, please explain the difference between "a bad sinner" (least) and "a good sinner" (great).

And then explain how it is that both the bad sinner and the good sinner are in the KoH/Kog together.

KJV- Mat. 5[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jon Mathews]

It's all in the details...the little words. The gospel is BY grace not the subject itself of the gospel. So there is no gospel OF grace. The gospel is always of the kingdom of God...a place.

It's like when you go to work BY car. Is your work the car itself? No. It is the means by which you go TO work.

The false gospel of grace is that by just having a car....that means you are at your place of work without going anywhere. Like a senile person who gets into a car and doesn't know where to go. The thinking goes...I'm in the car so I must be already at my place of work. There is a disconnect with reality and logic going on.

No. The Gospel is the news that Christ died for sins, was buried, and on the 3rd day rose from the grave. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The CORE of this Gospel is the Grace of God. Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the Gospel and He was full of Grace and Truth (John 1:14). Satan doesn't want believing their sins are forgiven and cleansed by Faith in this Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

No. The Gospel is the news that Christ died for sins, was buried, and on the 3rd day rose from the grave. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The CORE of this Gospel is the Grace of God. Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the Gospel and He was full of Grace and Truth (John 1:14). Satan doesn't want believing their sins are forgiven and cleansed by Faith in this Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are you saying cleansed as in washed away so that the power of sin is destroyed...or just whitewashed? I think I already know your position...but it is a false gospel that serves man...not God. It justifies "believers" IN their sins. So there is actually no real cleansing taking place...just an ideology that makes one think they are cleansed even as they sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Grace takes us to a higher level where we become more responsible for sins...not less. God's ways are equal. Since grace is so powerful in a good way...it can also be powerful in a bad way when we misuse it.

It's like nuclear power. You don't mess with it. One must be very careful when handling radioactive material. So it is with grace.

Many people confuse God's mercy with grace. Grace makes us holy...without sin...or else it isn't grace from God. Grace is the power of God unto godliness. Grace is power...the power of God us-ward. Grace sanctifies us...makes us holy.

We are kept by this power of God (grace) through faith. The faith OF Jesus Christ. But if we are not careful we transgress against grace. We abuse God's gift and grieve His Holy Spirit.

See how God has upped the ante...

Heb. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Grace brings MORE fear of God....the same way that handling uranium brings more fear than handling wood.

 

[prism]

Grace isn't an infused power or object but rather the manner God deals favorably with those who are His.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Grace takes us to a higher level where we become more responsible for sins...not less.

Yes--"To whom much has been given, much will be required..."

Many people confuse God's mercy with grace. Grace makes us holy...without sin...or else it isn't grace from God. Grace is the power of God unto godliness. Grace is power...the power of God us-ward. Grace sanctifies us...makes us holy.

I agree--God's mercy makes forgiveness possible, but His grace is much more than just forgiveness.

Grace brings MORE fear of God....the same way that handling uranium brings more fear than handling wood.

Yes.

 

[Nancy]

I find myself lately asking, not just for myself but, for other Christians I know to be blessed with the Grace to be humble enough to listen to others who think and interpret scripture differently than I. If I'm in error, I WANT to know...whether or not I LIKE the answer. I just want to please Him in all I do. Surrender in all things is paramount to my life as, I do not have that kind of "will power" to do these things on my own. Besides, we can do nothing without Him anyhow.
Until we all realize just how sufficient His Grace really is...it is just words without applicability.

 

[Episkopos]

I find myself lately asking, not just for myself but, for other Christians I know to be blessed with the Grace to be humble enough to listen to others who think and interpret scripture differently than I. If I'm in error, I WANT to know...whether or not I LIKE the answer. I just want to please Him in all I do. Surrender in all things is paramount to my life as, I do not have that kind of "will power" to do these things on my own. Besides, we can do nothing without Him anyhow.
Until we all realize just how sufficient His Grace really is...it is just words without applicability.

Amen sister! This is a proper and humble attitude to have. God indeed gives grace to the humble.

Too often people believe only in what they want the bible to say. But what wisdom is there in twisting the words that are there to save us? We are only hurting ourselves (and those who hear us) by ignoring the sheer magnitude of God's work in saving mankind.

This thread is about the false grace that is so popular...so that even the elect could be deceived. But this false grace is an affront to God...as it serves to save what God is trying to get us to forsake. Do we really want to play chicken with God to see who blinks first?

Grace makes us holy. IF we sin then we have an advocate in Jesus to restore us to holiness...and a walk that is blameless and pleasing to God. People that say they are under grace and still sin habitually...are lying. They are still under the law and walking in their own strength. Grace gives us the power to walk as Jesus walked..as we abide in Him.

But this is intolerable...scandalous to the carnal man. The carnal man wants absolution for being a sinful man...not an offer of becoming something entirely different ...like being holy with God. That's not on our wish list.

The truth is a scandal...a revolution of God's will come to earth. It is received and entered into by faith.

How dare God provide a grace that is sufficient to overcome sin! Who today understands and experiences this sufficiency?

Such a sad state is the church of today in. Who can muster a faith that takes them outside their own limitations and into the impossible and unlimited power of what God can do? Who actually believes that ALL things are possible with God? Very very few. Who believes they can do ALL things through the strengthening of grace?

 

[Nancy]

Amen sister! This is a proper and humble attitude to have. God indeed gives grace to the humble.

Too often people believe only in what they want the bible to say. But what wisdom is there in twisting the words that are there to save us? We are only hurting ourselves (and those who hear us) by ignoring the sheer magnitude of God's work in saving mankind.

This thread is about the false grace that is so popular...so that even the elect could be deceived. But this false grace is an affront to God...as it serves to save what God is trying to get us to forsake. Do we really want to play chicken with God to see who blinks first?

Grace makes us holy. IF we sin then we have an advocate in Jesus to restore us to holiness...and a walk that is blameless and pleasing to God. People that say they are under grace and still sin habitually...are lying. They are still under the law and walking in their own strength. Grace gives us the power to walk as Jesus walked..as we abide in Him.

But this is intolerable...scandalous to the carnal man. The carnal man wants absolution for being a sinful man...not an offer of becoming something entirely different ...like being holy with God. That's not on our wish list.

The truth is a scandal...a revolution of God's will come to earth. It is received and entered into by faith.

How dare God provide a grace that is sufficient to overcome sin! Who today understands and experiences this sufficiency?

Such a sad state is the church of today. Who can muster a faith that takes them outside their own limitations and into the impossible and unlimited power of what God can do?

"Too often people believe only in what they want the bible to say. But what wisdom is there in twisting the words that are there to save us?"
They are fooling only themselves. Why bother??! If one still enjoys and continues in sin, that one simply cannot be saved! The only thing God asks of us is to Stop living in sin. He hates it so much I must say it probably hurts Him no end. Thank Him for His long-suffering!!! lol.
What is it, simple ignorance? Denial? False teachers? I'd say a bit of all? Christians in general are no longer on fire for Him and His ways and Truth. They heap up those false teachers who make them comfortable in their sin! Wow. It is a tragedy, really. We all need to be on our knees, asking, begging and pleading with God to revive these dry bones and open their eyes and ears! God help us all!

 

[CoreIssue]

Grace takes us to a higher level where we become more responsible for sins...not less. God's ways are equal. Since grace is so powerful in a good way...it can also be powerful in a bad way when we misuse it.

It's like nuclear power. You don't mess with it. One must be very careful when handling radioactive material. So it is with grace.

Many people confuse God's mercy with grace. Grace makes us holy...without sin...or else it isn't grace from God. Grace is the power of God unto godliness. Grace is power...the power of God us-ward. Grace sanctifies us...makes us holy.

We are kept by this power of God (grace) through faith. The faith OF Jesus Christ. But if we are not careful we transgress against grace. We abuse God's gift and grieve His Holy Spirit.

See how God has upped the ante...

Heb. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Grace brings MORE fear of God....the same way that handling uranium brings more fear than handling wood.

What do you base your claim race can be misused upon?

You make it sound like a power generator. Way too similar to the Name it and Claim it error. Or the word of faith, WOF.

You do not become more responsible for the grace. Saying you were responsible for when unsaved you are still responsible for, but the consequences change.

Born again the spirits become sin for. Not our flesh.

God's mercy is by grace.

Hebrews does not say what you claim. He was addressing this to Jews in dealing with the struggles Jews were having with the fulfillment of Mosaic law.

The born again are judged for rewards. The unrepentant will be judged for punishment.

I do not fear God nor does he want me to fear him.

2 Timothy 1:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

After the resurrection the Bible always speaks of the unsaved fearing.

The Old Testament uses fear in the context of all in mystery.

 

[Episkopos]

"Too often people believe only in what they want the bible to say. But what wisdom is there in twisting the words that are there to save us?"
They are fooling only themselves. Why bother??! If one still enjoys and continues in sin, that one simply cannot be saved! The only thing God asks of us is to Stop living in sin. He hates it so much I must say it probably hurts Him no end. Thank Him for His long-suffering!!! lol.
What is it, simple ignorance? Denial? False teachers? I'd say a bit of all? Christians in general are no longer on fire for Him and His ways and Truth. They heap up those false teachers who make them comfortable in their sin! Wow. It is a tragedy, really. We all need to be on our knees, asking, begging and pleading with God to revive these dry bones and open their eyes and ears! God help us all!

And what is worse still is the religious imposters who don't sin outwardly...but inwardly. These have a form of godliness...and very good sounding doctrines. But they have no love in them. They are hard bitten...bible thumping, self-righteous and fully radical in their defense of the truisms they have centered their lives on. But they walk as ordinary men...without any connection to the truth. They walk in the imagination...albeit religious imagination...of the new improved carnal mind. These may have been reformed...but not transformed.

And the saddest part is that some of these have actually encountered God. But they have made the fatal error of drawing the wrong conclusions for their visitation. Then there are those who have had a false visitation..that caters to their own self-love.

I think it's easier to stick with the truth in simplicity...and the pursuit of His realm where love, joy and peace flow out of us like a river. Until then...we claim simply to be bumbling towards eternity.

 

[CoreIssue]

"Too often people believe only in what they want the bible to say. But what wisdom is there in twisting the words that are there to save us?"
They are fooling only themselves. Why bother??! If one still enjoys and continues in sin, that one simply cannot be saved! The only thing God asks of us is to Stop living in sin. He hates it so much I must say it probably hurts Him no end. Thank Him for His long-suffering!!! lol.
What is it, simple ignorance? Denial? False teachers? I'd say a bit of all? Christians in general are no longer on fire for Him and His ways and Truth. They heap up those false teachers who make them comfortable in their sin! Wow. It is a tragedy, really. We all need to be on our knees, asking, begging and pleading with God to revive these dry bones and open their eyes and ears! God help us all!

Yes and no.

Paul's spells about quite clearly that the Saints will continue to sin because of the flesh.

But he also makes it quite clear we will not sin as we did before being saved and that we will struggle to stop sinning altogether. The war of the old And new natures.

Total sanctification is a train wreck and the stumbling block that hinders people from growing in sanctification. They are chasing the unattainable on this earth.

 

[CoreIssue]

And what is worse still is the religious imposters who don't sin outwardly...but inwardly. These have a form of godliness...and very good sounding doctrines. But they have no love in them. They are hard bitten...bible thumping, self-righteous and fully radical in their defense of the truisms they have centered their lives on. But they walk as ordinary men...without any connection to the truth. They walk in the imagination...albeit religious imagination...of the new improved carnal mind. These may have been reformed...but not transformed.

And the saddest part is that some of these have actually encountered God. But they have made the fatal error of drawing the wrong conclusions for their visitation. Then there are those who have had a false visitation..that caters to their own self-love.

I think it's easier to stick with the truth in simplicity...and the pursuit of His realm where love, joy and peace flow out of us like a river. Until then...we claim simply to be bumbling towards eternity.

Every born-again sends outwardly and inwardly.

Paul makes that quite clear.

 

[Nancy]

And what is worse still is the religious imposters who don't sin outwardly...but inwardly. These have a form of godliness...and very good sounding doctrines. But they have no love in them. They are hard bitten...bible thumping, self-righteous and fully radical in their defense of the truisms they have centered their lives on. But they walk as ordinary men...without any connection to the truth. They walk in the imagination...albeit religious imagination...of the new improved carnal mind. These may have been reformed...but not transformed.

And the saddest part is that some of these have actually encountered God. But they have made the fatal error of drawing the wrong conclusions for their visitation. Then there are those who have had a false visitation..that caters to their own self-love.

I think it's easier to stick with the truth in simplicity...and the pursuit of His realm where love, joy and peace flow out of us like a river. Until then...we claim simply to be bumbling towards eternity.

Haha, and "bumble" we do! Just as long as we continue to "bumble" in that race of all races ♥
"These have a form of godliness..."
Indeed, and that to me is so obvious!
"2 Timothy 3:5
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
I worry about my soft hearted hard headed sweet as the day is long sister. I think she is coming around now that I no longer berate her about all of these "sensational" You Tube videos!!!!!!