The false gospel of grace

[justbyfaith]

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such ***were*** some of you. But you ***were*** washed, but you ***were*** sanctified, but you ***were*** justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and ****by the Spirit of our God.***
NKJV

You can overlook the fact that all these WERE (PAST TENSE) if you wish but I will not.

Know that it was not all of those who lived in Corinth to whom this applied; neither does it apply to all of us: but it applies to those of us to whom it applies practically.

God has made a way for the un-godly to become sinless in THEIR SPIRIT, Not their flesh.

See Ephesians 5:30-32 and 1 John 3:5.

What I have seen is the constant effort of the Religious to place the Children of God under a false religion that teaches sinless perfection required for salvation.

You can rest assured that I am not among those who teach this. I do not see entire sanctification as a requirement for salvation; but rather as a (second) benefit for those of us who are fed up with living sinful lifestyles. Those of us who, when we find ourselves living according to the flesh, say, Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[H. Richard]

Know that it was not all of those who lived in Corinth to whom this applied; neither does it apply to all of us: but it applies to those of us to whom it applies practically.

You can rest assured that I am not among those who teach this. I do not see entire sanctification as a requirement for salvation; but rather as a (second) benefit for those of us who are fed up with living sinful lifestyles. Those of us who, when we find ourselves living according to the flesh, say, Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Explain your use of the word "practically". Not sure of what you mean.

Jesus has already sanctified those who are His. It is a DONE DEAL. It is not something we can do by the will of the flesh

You quote Romans 7. Do you really see what it says? Read the next verse.

Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Flesh has to live with the law of sin or cease to be flesh.

If the above verses do not describe what a person believes then they do not understand the JOY the children of God have in Christ who has made a way for sinners to be saved by freeing us from our sinful bodies and it's condemnation for sin.

If a person is required to sanctify, justify, themselves they are refusing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) and are trying to do it for themselves.

What I see is that the religious are totally into this thing OF NOT SINNING in the flesh as a way to get into Heaven without the work of the cross which sets them free. Most do not understand what they have been set free from.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Explain your use of the word "practically". Not sure of what you mean.

Jesus has already sanctified those who are His. It is a DONE DEAL. It is not something we can do by the will of the flesh

You quote Romans 7. Do you really see what it says? Read the next verse.

Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Flesh has to live with the law of sin or cease to be flesh.

If the above verses do not describe what a person believes then they do not understand the JOY the children of God have in Christ who has made a way for sinners to be saved by freeing us from our sinful bodies and it's condemnation for sin.

If a person is required to sanctify, justify, themselves they are refusing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) and are trying to do it for themselves.

What I see is that the religious are totally into this thing OF NOT SINNING in the flesh as a way to get into Heaven without the work of the cross which sets them free. Most do not understand what they have been set free from.

Jesus also set us free from the slavery of being dominated by our flesh. That is why the Christian martyrs are noted for special honors--they have completely overcome their fleshly desire to survive. The greater the freedom from the dominance of the flesh, the more joy in the Spirit. What greatly impacted the Romans during Roman persecutions was that the Christian martyrs went to their deaths SINGING. Such an astounding salvation.

As such, fasting feeds not the flesh, but the spirit born from on high. When individuals have fasted for spiritual reasons, they report an elation in the Holy Spirit that they had never felt before. Christians of the past were not so earthbound as we tend to be.

 

[H. Richard]

Jesus also set us free from the slavery of being dominated by our flesh. That is why the Christian martyrs are noted for special honors--they have completely overcome their fleshly desire to survive. The greater the freedom from the dominance of the flesh, the more joy in the Spirit. What greatly impacted the Romans during Roman persecutions was that the Christian martyrs went to their deaths SINGING. Such an astounding salvation.

A very good reply. Those who know that the promise of salvation comes from the work of God (Jesus) on the cross can completely ignore the condemnation of their sinful flesh and have joy that God will take care of them since they glorify the work of His Son on the cross.

The only thing I would want to change is the words you used "The greater the freedom from the dominance of the flesh, the more joy in the Spirit".

To the greater the freedom from the CONDEMNATION of the flesh the more joy in the Spirit".

 

[Episkopos]

25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Flesh has to live with the law of sin or cease to be flesh.

If the above verses do not describe what a person believes then they do not understand the JOY the children of God have in Christ who has made a way for sinners to be saved by freeing us from our sinful bodies and it's condemnation for sin.

If a person is required to sanctify, justify, themselves they are refusing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) and are trying to do it for themselves.

What I see is that the religious are totally into this thing OF NOT SINNING in the flesh as a way to get into Heaven without the work of the cross which sets them free. Most do not understand what they have been set free from.

You would have us serving two masters...God AND sin. Didn't Jesus say that we can't serve two masters?

Reading Paul correctly...he is not saying that he is serving God and sin simultaneously. When a person walks according to the flesh there is no power to overcome sin and remain pure. Only when we are empowered to walk according to the Spirit can we do so.

The joy you are speaking of is sinning and not feeling condemned for it. But people in the world who have had their consciences seared through sin also feel just fine in their sins. They don't have the conviction of sin....even when they sin. What you are saying is that you have no more conscience of sin either. So that your sin consciousness has been seared.

Are you supposed to be at peace IN your sin.

People will have to make up their minds about that. It is an easy way out...but is it according to the truth? (Even to entertain that possibility should be repulsive to us...but such is the scheme being presented here)

We become free from not just the condemnation of sin as you believe...but from the power of sin through Christ. You don't need to dampen your sin consciousness to be at peace...instead you are given real peace from above in holiness by walking as Jesus walked...without sin. You don't believe that is possible...calling any overcoming power from God...just works of the flesh. (of course the very opposite is true) Is raising the dead a work of the flesh? Is healing the sick a work of the flesh? But you relegate any victory over sin as a work of the flesh.

Did Jesus walk among us in a different kind of flesh? Yet He overcame so that He could give us that same grace to overcome the way He did.

Let people decide whether they want their consciences seared so as to be immune from guilt for their sins...OR... to actually be delivered from the power of sin by abiding in Christ.

A leper is one who no longer feels pain. Their nerve endings have become seared...so they hurt themselves continuously until their bodies become disfigured.

1 Tim. 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

There is a spiritual leprosy that causes it's victims to no longer feel the conviction of sin...just as any hardened sinner...yet still claim to love and have faith in God.

This affliction has infected many as a great delusion. All they who love iniquity...and are unwilling or unable to sacrifice themselves for the love of the truth...will believe the lie.

This is the choice set before us.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

A very good reply. Those who know that the promise of salvation comes from the work of God (Jesus) on the cross can completely ignore the condemnation of their sinful flesh and have joy that God will take care of them since they glorify the work of His Son on the cross.

The only thing I would want to change is the words you used "The greater the freedom from the dominance of the flesh, the more joy in the Spirit".

To the greater the freedom from the CONDEMNATION of the flesh the more joy in the Spirit".

Why? The flesh and the Spirit within us are constantly at war in this world of sin and death. It is not our earthly bodies which are evil--it is what we seek to do with them that can be quite evil. Since evil spirits (demons and fallen angels) do not have bodies to act out evil desires, they rely on humans to do their dirty work.

 

[Episkopos]

completely ignore the condemnation of their sinful flesh

Searing the conscience.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Searing the conscience.

I saw an apt quote: "When you get to the point where you see nothing wrong with what God has called sin, your conscience is seared."

 

[farouk]

I saw an apt quote: "When you get to the point where you see nothing wrong with what God has called sin, your conscience is seared."

Good point. Hebrews 9.14 is clear about the great importance of a clear, cleansed conscience.

 

[H. Richard]

You would have us serving two masters...God AND sin. Didn't Jesus say that we can't serve two masters?

Reading Paul correctly...he is not saying that he is serving God and sin simultaneously. When a person walks according to the flesh there is no power to overcome sin and remain pure. Only when we are empowered to walk according to the Spirit can we do so.

I believe verse 25 says what it says. 25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Obviously you do not want the last 7 words to mean anything.

The joy you are speaking of is sinning and not feeling condemned for it. --- Are you supposed to be at peace IN your sin.

You certainly have no peace thinking you have to be perfect and not sin in order to go to Heaven. No one can be at peace knowing that every time they commit a sin they are condemned for it. You think those in Christ are taking the easy way out but that is the flesh talking. To the flesh paying for your sin is the easy way out because in your heart you know you are still in your sins.

Those that believe as you do had better thank God for making a way for them to not be condemned for their sins of their flesh because ALL SIN JUST AS MUCH AS THE NEXT PERSON. Only the self-righteous think they do not sin.

Say what you will, and I am sure you will, but you are blinded by your religious ideas that you can save yourself by what you do or not do.

I am truly sorry for you but I will no longer waste my time on someone who thinks they never sin in their flesh any longer.. You can reply and post all you wish but you will have to find someone who is naive enough to think they never sin in their flesh.

 

[H. Richard]

So if I preach and teach that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for all the sins of the world I must love to sin and it is my every purpose to sin and I must have a seared conscience.

You people ought to be ashamed. You shut to door to Heaven by your insistence that a child of God must not sin in the flesh. Why? Because no man is without sin in the flesh as long as they live in the flesh. You want them to give up hope in Christ.

God judges His children and He does not take it kindly that those who claim Christ and then want to do it themselves.

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

IMHO yours is the fake gospel because it does not save anyone. Nor does it clear the conscience of those that sin in the flesh because they do not see their sin any longer.

 

[marks]

Are you supposed to be at peace IN your sin.

People will have to make up their minds about that. It is an easy way out...but is it according to the truth? (Even to entertain that possibility should be repulsive to us...but such is the scheme being presented here)

That's not what is being presented.

This idea keeps being deformed into something it's not.

So over and over and over again, "You people love your sin!" but the repetition does not make it true.

Though we sin, and though we hate sin, yet Jesus intercedes for us. That brings joy, knowing that we are still the beloved children of our Heavenly Father.

We rely on God to take us away from sin, to close the door on sin. And we rely on God's forgiveness for our sin, and this brings great joy!

Oh how happy is the man to whom God will not impute sin!!

This is the joy!

Or are you thinking that Jesus' intercession for us avails nothing?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

@Lady Crosstalk Thanks for the 'like'.

 

[Enoch111]

So over and over and over again, "You people love your sin!" but the repetition does not make it true.

That's called creating a false narrative so eventually it is accepted as true. Propagandists use this strategy all the time.

 

[marks]

That's called creating a false narrative so eventually it is accepted as true. Propagandists use this strategy all the time.

False Narrative, that was the term I was trying to think of!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

@Lady Crosstalk Thanks for the 'like'.

 

[justbyfaith]

Explain your use of the word "practically". Not sure of what you mean.

Jesus has already sanctified those who are His. It is a DONE DEAL. It is not something we can do by the will of the flesh

You quote Romans 7. Do you really see what it says? Read the next verse.

Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Flesh has to live with the law of sin or cease to be flesh.

If the above verses do not describe what a person believes then they do not understand the JOY the children of God have in Christ who has made a way for sinners to be saved by freeing us from our sinful bodies and it's condemnation for sin.

If a person is required to sanctify, justify, themselves they are refusing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) and are trying to do it for themselves.

What I see is that the religious are totally into this thing OF NOT SINNING in the flesh as a way to get into Heaven without the work of the cross which sets them free. Most do not understand what they have been set free from.

So, with the flesh we serve the law of sin...however not much later Paul writes that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
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.
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What I mean by practically is, that I speak it to counter the concept that we are positionally righteous and that we can be counted as perfect and righteous without it being true in the practical sense (although there is some truth to this concept, practical righteousness is not far behind if positional righteousness be the reality)...in other words, in reality as opposed to God looking at us and turning a blind eye to our sin(s).

So then, when the Bible says I am sanctified, it means that I am truly sanctified; it is not talking about the Lord looking at me through rose-colored glasses. There is another word for that....justification. So then, let's get our definitions right.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Good point. Hebrews 9.14 is clear about the great importance of a clear, cleansed conscience.

Something weird happened with this site's Bible quote mechanism--Your Hebrews 9:14 quote did not come out right.

 

[justbyfaith]

Something weird happened with this site's Bible quote mechanism--Your Hebrews 9:14 quote did not come out right.

He normally quotes it with a decimal point rather than with a colon; for some reason.

 

[marks]

He normally quotes it with a decimal point rather than with a colon; for some reason.

It makes you see the entire chapter. I don't know if that's what farouk has in mind, but it works for me!