The Father saved me, in Christ

[Jun2u]

Stop beating around the bush or you really do not understand this portion of scripture Mark. Jesus does draw all folks to him because of his death and his Father's power to bring him to new life. I would think Jesus would draw an audience and the reason believers are saved. It was a monumental event, indeed. So what is all this about reversing the meaning again. Look I cannot make you believe what you believe here. You have to take a deep breath and start looking at critical items such as context, scriptural harmony with others etc. You cannot just make up an appealing idea that sound good in your mind and disregard someone else comment outright.....

Some people should really practice what they preach.

Jesus did NOT draw “all folks” to Himself!! That’s an incorrect understanding of John 12:32, when people take a verse(s) out of context.

Where do you read that Jesus draws all folks to himself in the following verses
John 6:37, 39, 44, 65?

To borrow your own words: “You cannot just make up an appealing idea that sound good in your mind and disregard someone else comment outright..…

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

As we know the Father did all the heavy lifting with rebuilding the temple, raising Christ to a new life, and also choosing and drawing from the world to salvation.

One thing on this, as you had just quoted the passage, Destroy this temple and I will raise it . . . Jesus said that He would raise His Own body. And so He did.

So again, there is more to the story . . .

Much love!

 

[Jun2u]

Jun2u said: ↑
Does the word all mean each and every man now? Most certainly not.

Why not?

Because we must always qualify the word in question and ask how else is that word used in other parts of Scripture. In this case the word is “all.”

Luke 2:1 reads:
“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.”

Is this verse indicating all the countries of the world should be taxed? Certainly not! Only those countries that Rome conquered at that particular time!!

1 Corinthians 15:22
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

We know and understand the first word “all” means “each and every,” but the second word “all” cannot mean “each and every” because not everyone goes to heaven. Hell will heavily be populated.

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

Jun2u said: ↑
Does the word all mean each and every man now? Most certainly not.

OK, by this reasoning, I can state that in Adam, some men die. Not all died. Is that right?

All the world to be taxed . . . yes, I'm not thinking that Rome taxed the Japanese fishermen. We have to take things in context. But should we allow the contextual considerations from another passage change the apparent meaning in an unrelated passage?

Of course, something else occurs to me. Why should we assume that the Caeser Augustus didn't decree his people collect taxes from everyone in the world? Caesers weren't known for always being the most reasonable.

Myself, I like to be extremely careful any time I'm tempted to say, it Says this, but Means that. If I stick with what it says, that seems to work out better. But that's me.

Much love!
Mark

 

[APAK]

Very nice...I l

[QUOTE=""ByGrace", post: 536207, member: 4427"]If you read it all in context...it is speaking about judgement. So I read it as I will draw all judgement unto Me. Which is what He came to earth to do. No?

No. Jesus came to die on the cross to redeem the sins of those the Father gave to Him. Yes, judgment is in view, but not in the context you are suggesting. The context however is found in verses 27-31.

verse 27 - “...Father save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour, (sacrificial death).” Did not Jesus come to go to the cross?

Verse 28 – What did the Father glorify and will glorify it again? The name of the Father for sending His Son to die on the cross for our sins, and the name “exaltated on high” given to Jesus after the resurrection.

Verse 29 – explains itself.

Verse 30 – Jesus said this voice came not because of me, but for your sake... for our sake? Yes, if Jesus had not come to go to the cross there would be no salvation for mankind!!

Verse 31 – Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world (Satan) be cast out. The judgment was against Satan. Before Jesus went to the cross there were only a handful that were saved, about five hundred in Galilee and one hundred in the upper room.

Jesus was victorious at the cross by defeating Satan. After the resurrection at Pentecost Peter gives a sermon and three thousand were saved. Satan’s ability to hold people in total bondage diminished.

Verse 32 – If I be lifted up will draw all (the Father gave to me) John 6:37, 39.

Verse 33 – self explanatory.

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory[/QUOTE]

Jun2U...Very nice... I like it....
.although to @marks I will re-look your proposal more seriously then as I see you are eager for me to really understand it. You really did not share your work in logic though and I will have to improvise for you. It would have huge ramifications to the way most folks believe if what you say id true..
.I already see in your support, Jesus as being our high priest and the mediator pertain to those already saved,,,,irrelevant to this discussion.

What you really have for your support is the authority angle of Jesus that ties it all together and what that really means, and your replacement and diminished verse of John 6:37a based on an implicit assumption of its meaning and the insertion or replacement of John 12:32b. to make it all work. I think understanding Jesus authority is key to the answer..might be wrong

Give me a bit of time to get to it very soon please.

Bless you both...learning is fun with the Bible aye...

APAK

 

[CoreIssue]

1 Corinthians 15:22 New International Version (NIV) 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All who? It does not specify who the all are.


Those into universal salvation said it means everybody in the world all time so no one will go to the lake for eternity.

Two harmonizes the total Scriptures it is easy to see it means all who seek him in repentance, all come to him in faith in grace and seek his mercy.

On the issue of salvation is not a standalone verse. It is one piece of a bigger puzzle.

As for verses about all the world in ancient times it all the known world.

In Adam all did die but Christ gave a way to escape death.

All who come to Christ are presented to the father by our high priest and sacrificial lamb Jesus. The father accepts his sacrifice on our behalf we receive the Holy Spirit.

God knew all of this before anybody was born. He knew who would love him and he predestined them all to glorification.

In the Bible a promise from God is considered an accomplished fact. In the example of the incarnation of Christ. Contrary to what some say Jesus did not exist in fact for the incarnation, but as a sure promise of God it is considered fact. Just like those who have not yet received Christ, born already or not, God knows who they are and they're already guaranteed glorification.

Just like all the prophecies of the future are guaranteed to happen.

 

[APAK]

One thing on this, as you had just quoted the passage, Destroy this temple and I will raise it . . . Jesus said that He would raise His Own body. And so He did.

So again, there is more to the story . . .

Much love!

No, The Father raised him Mark....another subject and scripture to boot..APAK

 

[marks]

.although to @marks I will re-look your proposal more seriously then as I see you are eager for me to really understand it.

It's up to you if you want to understand this.

If you find something useful then good!

You really did not share your work in logic though and I will have to improvise for you.

don't improvise too much, lest you end up putting words into my mouth. If there is something you'd like elaboration on say the word.

It would have huge ramifications to the way most folks believe if what you say id true..
.I already see in your support, Jesus as being our high priest and the mediator pertain to those already saved,,,,irrelevant to this discussion.

Truth always has a major impact.

I'm talking about What God Does. What God does is love us. Which means to care for our wellbeing. You have God empowering us to sin. I don't see that as something God does. God empowers us to not sin.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 15:22 New International Version (NIV) 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All who? It does not specify who the all are.


Those into universal salvation said it means everybody in the world all time so no one will go to the lake for eternity.

Two harmonizes the total Scriptures it is easy to see it means all who seek him in repentance, all come to him in faith in grace and seek his mercy.

On the issue of salvation is not a standalone verse. It is one piece of a bigger puzzle.

As for verses about all the world in ancient times it all the known world.

In Adam all did die but Christ gave a way to escape death.

Hi CoreIssue,

I agree with you, when we read the rest of Scripture, we can understand what God is saying to us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, The Father raised him Mark....another subject and scripture to boot..APAK

So Jesus was lying when He said He would raise "the temple of His body"? Is this your assertion?

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus had the power to lay down His life, and the power to take it back up again.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
again.

And interesting thing here is that "rise" is an Active Voice verb, which means that the speaker is the one doing the action. Jesus raises Himself. This is the meaning of the Active Voice. Passive voice would be that someone else raised Him.

The fact is, Father, Son, and Spirit are each credited with Jesus' resurrection:

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

By the way . . . John 2:19 also uses the Active Voice, I will raise it up.

So, yes, the Father raised Jesus, and also, Jesus raised Jesus. Interesting, isn't it?

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

You really did not share your work in logic though

I have to say . . . I come back to comments like this and I really truly wonder . . .

What do you find not logical about my presentation? Be specific please. Show the part(s) that are not logical, and show how it is that they are not logical. Let's see if my logic holds up . . . Or if you are just being disparaging as so many on this board?

And why do you find it so important to be derogatory? If you have an argument, make it. But what do you feel you add to a discussion by saying, You're just not being logical here, but maybe I can try to figure out what you mean and fill in the blanks for you?

Sorry for all the metacommunication here, just the same, I'd like to challenge you to every time you feel like making a personal remark, to re-look at what it is about the post that brings up that desire, and instead, address the points in the post with an actual response, and not just more personal comments.

What do you think?

Much love!
Mark

 

[APAK]

Finally got back on after some server issue I guess...
@marks I did some more review.

After a little more time and thought in prayer on your proposal I still cannot buy into it. Here's why..

Jesus does not now perform the primal function of God’s plan for salvation that initiates the process, to seek him out and open hearts. Jesus performs the sealing process for salvation. Jesus was his perfect sacrifice for all men not both the creator of the sacrifice and the sacrifice himself. Jesus cannot usurp his Father’s most native function of drawing people to himself as even Jesus shall return the Kingdom back to his Father after all the work is completed. It is the Father's heaven and domain, ultimately, not Jesus who shall always give the Father glory.

Jesus does not perform all the choosing of all peoples today, or since his immortality, or even before when after he was risen from the dead by his Father, or as Jesus was resurrected as a rebuilt temple of his Father in 3 days.

These are other reasons.

1. There is no explicit scripture suggesting that the Father gave his son authority for choosing anyone to salvation. Scripture does however say that the Father does the choosing and electing. As is in my OP.

2. Authority in the biblical sense means one is authorized to perform certain tasks or functions established by the one spiritual leader, the one that is truly responsible for them. Since the Father is that leader and source of all works, and all spirits he is still ultimately responsible and must authorize such a drastic change as choosing those to be saved. There is no scripture to support it. He has always chosen and there is no Biblical precedence set for him authorizing salvation to others including his Son.

3. Jesus is authorized all types of functions for all believers and their sustainment, given by the Father and over all men, on earth for the Father’s purpose. He is also in charge of all heavenly creatures and functions. This is what is meant by ‘all authority is given to me on earth and in heaven.’

4. Those scriptures saying explicitly that the Father chose folks to election, of salvation, no matter how ‘loose’ or imprecise the language, should be upheld and takes precedence over any implicit assumptions suggested by yourself.

5. Jesus is the shepherd of his flock of sheep and gathers them from all over the world today. He does not make them sheep and also gathers them to his fold. Then he is more that a shepherd and the head of the body of believers.

6. With your logic that cannot be inspired by the spirit of Christ, Jesus is the creator and gatherer. He is now just not the mediator of his flock or body, he now replaces the Father and is the mediator between himself and himself – the Father is taken out of the loop. He is now not just the high priest, he is now not just the high priest he is also the Father of spirits, as the Father, the only one that deserved glory and true adoration and worship.

7. I believe that if Jesus truly mean in context that he draws all to him from the world it is because his Father first chooses them from all the world for him as the Father has always done since creation, before Christ.

And there is much more…I’ll stop here

I’ll stick to my OP in its current state.

Your truth is yours, not mine Mark


I will leave you with this scripture:

(Joh 17:1) These things spoke Jesus, and lifting up his eyes to Heaven, he said: Father, the hour comes. Glorify Your son, that the son may glorify you,
(Joh 17:2) even as You gave him authority over all flesh, so that he should give eternal life to all whom (YOU the Father- my emphasis) You have given him.


The Father still does ALL the choosing and giving souls to Jesus I’m afraid and Jesus seals the deal with his spirit indwelt in ones’ heart for salvation and eternal life. The Father chooses the soul and the other gives the soul eternal life. They work together as one spirit.

BL: In John 12:32b Jesus draws all believers to himself by his own immortal spirit after they receive his spirit in their hearts. They hear his 'voice' as his body and flock. It's has nothing to do with Jesus, after his resurrection by the Father, to suddenly acquire authority and perform the role of the Father's function of election....all believers are drawn to Jesus' spirit present within each believer...cannot make it much clearer

I'n done here with this thought for now...


Blessings,


APAK

 

[marks]

1. There is no explicit scripture suggesting that the Father gave his son authority for choosing anyone to salvation. Scripture does however say that the Father does the choosing and electing. As is in my OP.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So many like the NIV, in this case, I think it carries the day:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And what does Jesus then say? Therefore . . . Because I've been given ALL Authority, you go, and teach, and baptize, and I'm always with you.

Jesus, the Lord of All, Lord of the Sabbath, Lord of creation, Lord of me. Jesus, the Kindness of God towards us. God's Wisdom for mankind. Jesus, Who said, in essence, If I'm crucified, I'll draw ALL to Me.

Jesus Who loves us.

Once again, I find that if I stay with the simplicity of the straightforward reading of the text, I find truths both life-changing and glorious. And once again, it's all about Jesus.

Much love, and grace!

Mark

 

[marks]

4. Those scriptures saying explicitly that the Father chose folks to election, of salvation, no matter how ‘loose’ or imprecise the language, should be upheld and takes precedence over any implicit assumptions suggested by yourself.

Of course you are including in your reasoning the idea of God's election to salvation, which I find in complete disagreement with Scripture, particularly when you stay with the actual readings.

I know about that debate having years of experience with it, having studied the matter in much depth over much time.

What I find is that those who assert that view inevitably will point to a verse in the Bible, and declare that while it says such and such, it doesn't actually mean that.

I find nothing 'loose or imprecise' in saying, for instance, "all authority in earth and heaven is given to me". I would assert that it is you who are going against such a clear and concise statement from Jesus' very lips. And I've already shown what is admittedly a very small fraction of the surrounding overall context that frames this understanding.

Much love!
Mark

 

[bbyrd009]

The one thing you should be clear about is that I do not lie

Yet Scripture says diffently, right.
Granted we understand that you do not lie intentionally, supposedly
Of course I know different, but I'm keeping your secret for now ok

 

[bbyrd009]

You have no clue about the Gospel or anything else. Man could never be his own savior, so let's put that nonsense aside altogether.

At the same time you, and every Calvinist, and every Christian had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You had to make a decision, a choice, a commitment, a turning from sins and idols to God and Christ.

And if that is not what you did then you are not saved. And if that is what you did then just stop your nonsensical statements and abandon your false gospel.

i
see, you lie all the time I guess, without even meaning to,

 

[APAK]

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So many like the NIV, in this case, I think it carries the day:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And what does Jesus then say? Therefore . . . Because I've been given ALL Authority, you go, and teach, and baptize, and I'm always with you.

Jesus, the Lord of All, Lord of the Sabbath, Lord of creation, Lord of me. Jesus, the Kindness of God towards us. God's Wisdom for mankind. Jesus, Who said, in essence, If I'm crucified, I'll draw ALL to Me.

Jesus Who loves us.

Once again, I find that if I stay with the simplicity of the straightforward reading of the text, I find truths both life-changing and glorious. And once again, it's all about Jesus.

Much love, and grace!

Mark

Mark, I know you are still trying your best to place a square into a round hole, and then trying to sell it to me, to make me believe it is a perfect or natural fit.


Jesus' 'all' authority extending on the earth and in heaven is one thing. Another though is to what extent he has authority on the earth and in heaven?


Yes, it is extensive although scripture says it is limited in scope. For some maybe convenient reason, for your hypothesis to become credible, you have ignored this scope of Jesus' authority completely. If I were you and I am not you course, I would gauge and search scripture for these limitations. It may open your eyes a bit.


Jesus has specific functions that the Father authorizes and requires of his Son on all this earth for believers, as an example. He is the head of the congregation and has limited although extensive powers that he performs for us.


You said that Jesus the Christ is our mediator and I also agree with you. So as part of this function, his Father permitted Jesus to be the advocate for you. He intercedes and sustains us in faith. These are limitations of is all authority. There are many more examples.


Jesus still is not all-knowing and never will be...etc. This is one of the Father’s unique attributes and not Jesus.’ The Father cannot share these types of attributes.

As I said to you before, there shall be a time in the future when the Kingdom that Jesus sustains today is returned to the Father. Suggesting that Jesus’ all authority on earth and in heaven has an expiration date indeed. Jesus is not the Father and visa versa


Bless you,


APAK

 

[marks]

Mark, I know you are still trying your best to place a square into a round hole, and then trying to sell it to me, to make me believe it is a perfect or natural fit.

Curious bit of "knowledge". More like an insult if you ask me. I'm curious what you feel this adds to the discussion. Care to answer that?

As for the rest, you've let on your belief that Jesus has limited powers and limited knowledge.

You make the Father and the Son to be of different "stuff", the Father forever all-knowing and the Son forever ignorant.

I think this is one of those core disagreements underlying much else, and, given not only our different ways of reading the Bible, now it turns out we have significantly different understandings about God Himself.

So I think I have nothing more to say.

Much love!
Mark

 

[APAK]

Curious bit of "knowledge". More like an insult if you ask me. I'm curious what you feel this adds to the discussion. Care to answer that?

As for the rest, you've let on your belief that Jesus has limited powers and limited knowledge.

You make the Father and the Son to be of different "stuff", the Father forever all-knowing and the Son forever ignorant.

I think this is one of those core disagreements underlying much else, and, given not only our different ways of reading the Bible, now it turns out we have significantly different understandings about God Himself.

So I think I have nothing more to say.

Much love!
Mark

Let me save you some pain Mark....I'm not a Trinitarian or God=Jesus 'believer' as maybe you are....you see I already knew why you have taken liberty in your view of Jesus unlimited powers from the start of this discussion....the possibilities therefore with Jesus can be endless, even if scripture says NO!

Bless you,

APAK

 

[marks]

Let me save you some pain Mark....I'm not a Trinitarian or God=Jesus 'believer' as maybe you are....you see I already knew why you have taken liberty in your view of Jesus unlimited powers from the start of this discussion....the possibilities therefore with Jesus can be endless, even if scripture says NO!

Bless you,

APAK

Thank you for your clarification, I was beginning to suspect. We truly do not read the Bible the same way, nor do we believe in the same God.

But that Jesus is God there can be no doubt whatsoever.

Much love!
Mark