The Father saved me, in Christ

[APAK]

Yes. But those are the works of salvation, not the works to be saved.

Yes, and one can only truly believe in the one he sent after the spirit of him,Christ is indwelt...APAK

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes, and one can only truly believe in the one he sent after the spirit of him,Christ is indwelt...APAK

The Holy Spirit is indwelt. Christ is in us via the of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is a human being with the second person of God in him.

His body simply cannot be in us.

 

[Enoch111]

To Dave L the simple act of asking is work.

Well then he worked for his salvation. What a shame.

 

[APAK]

The Holy Spirit is indwelt. Christ is in us via the of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is a human being with the second person of God in him.

His body simply cannot be in us.

Agreed it cannot be his physical body, that would be silly right. it is always his spirit...I don't know about your 2nd person though, that's not in my Bible..APAK

 

[APAK]

Well then he worked for his salvation. What a shame.

Man, you still don't get it and you still twist what I've said for some reason. They are righteous works after being saved i.e. salvation works as @CoreIssue said, not works to be saved ..why do you continue to lie? These are righteous works that a believer exercises, not freewill self-righteous works to gain salvation and then afterwards as you believe in. God is the orchestrator of salvation if you care to read more scripture.


Bless you as God only can,

APAK

 

[CoreIssue]

Agreed it cannot be his physical body, that would be silly right. it is always his spirit...I don't know about your 2nd person though, that's not in my Bible..APAK

Yes it is. Word is the second person in the Trinity who incarnated into the created body at the incarnation.

The flesh of Jesus Christ is fully human and his spirit the second person of the Trinity.

 

[marks]

(Joh 6:44) No one can come to me, except the Father that sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day.

Hi APAK,

I'd start at this point, with the inclusion of another passage.

John 12:31-33
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Jesus said that if He be "lifted up", idiomatic to being crucified, just like we would say, "get the needle", that if this happened, He would draw all men unto Himself.

Previous to Jesus' crucifixion, only those whom the Father drew would come. But then this was to change, and Jesus would now draw all men unto Himself.

Jesus died for all, so all can come, and Jesus draws all, though not all come. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Much love!
mark

 

[Helen]

Jesus died for all, so all can come, and Jesus draws all, though not all come. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Much love!
mark

I like to think of that as :-
"Many are called, ( but few) choose to be chosen. "

...Thinking the invite to the wedding feast..

 

[APAK]

Hi APAK,

I'd start at this point, with the inclusion of another passage.

John 12:31-33
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Jesus said that if He be "lifted up", idiomatic to being crucified, just like we would say, "get the needle", that if this happened, He would draw all men unto Himself.

Previous to Jesus' crucifixion, only those whom the Father drew would come. But then this was to change, and Jesus would now draw all men unto Himself.

Jesus died for all, so all can come, and Jesus draws all, though not all come. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Much love!
mark

Thanks mark and an interesting proposition you have posed that I have looked at before and did not use it for these, to me obvious reasons. The issues I have with it are these:

(Joh 12:32) καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον

In this Textus Receptus Greek verse version there is no mention of men or people or any person or any such noun. Translators added this in for some clarity that does present some confusion.

Now in the previous verse Jesus is speaking about the world. So, with context, if any word should be added for clarity it should be the word ‘world.’ Jesus was speaking of drawing all the peoples of the world to himself.

(Joh 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

So, verse 32 should read more accurately as:

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (all) the world to myself.


So now we have another issue: Is it all the people of the globe for all future generations? I think not. It must mean that he will draw from all peoples of the world, from everyone living anywhere. And so, this means not all, but chosen from all peoples of the world. And who is actually drawing people to Christ, it is the Father of course as the OP scripture describes.

Jesus is speaking in brevity that people should understand that the Father actually does the choosing or drawing because Jesus shall be uplifted into immortality and his spirit is presented to all that the Father chooses. So in a sense Jesus is credited with causing or indirectly doing the drawing and never the choosing. The Father has always done this and even today.

Your basis for saying, “Previous to Jesus' crucifixion, only those whom the Father drew would come. But then this was to change, and Jesus would now draw all men unto Himself.” Is actually baseless as you can see.

Since Genesis, God Almighty, the Father, per scripture, he does all the choosing and direct drawing of people and all seek him for salvation. By using a mistranslated or confusing verse as you did here, does not claim any weight in the transference of the Father’s key role to Jesus.

Sorry, I cannot buy into what you have recommended.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[APAK]

@marks ..forgot to add in another example of Jesus' style of speaking similar to John 12:32.
Remember the verse where Jesus said he would raise/build the Temple in 3 days again.
(Joh 2:19) Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

Again, Jesus is credited with indirectly causing this to happen as in it was his body renewed into life ,as in John 12:32 it was his own death of his body. As we know the Father did all the heavy lifting with rebuilding the temple, raising Christ to a new life, and also choosing and drawing from the world to salvation.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Jun2u]

John 12:31-33
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The reason I like the KJV Bible is because when a word is italicized the printer is warning the English reader that that word in italicized is NOT in the original manuscript.

Therefore the word “men” in the verse above is not in the original manuscript. By omitting that word the verse now have a different meaning. Now the new rendering should read: “And I, if I be lifted up will draw all unto mean.”

The problem now is the word “all.” That word must now be qualified. Does the word all mean each and every man now? Most certainly not. Who does the all refer to? Well, it can only refer to what we read in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives me will come to me… “

If this is not true then we can rightly say that all men will be saved, no ifs and buts. However, we know that hell is going to heavily be populated.

Matthew 1:21-23 reads:
21) “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Pretending to have knowledge of the Bible you are actually ignorant of Scripture. Get on your knees and ask God to give you wisdom, and rely not on theologians or pastors for understanding.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Helen]

The problem now is the word “all.” That word must now be qualified. Does the word all mean each and every man now? Most certainly not. Who does the all refer to? Well, it can only refer to what we read in John 6:37: “All that the
Father gives me will come to me… “

Agree about the word men in there not being in the original.
I too like the KJV.

If you read it all in context...it is speaking about judgement.
So I read it as I will draw all judgement unto Me. Which is what He came to earth to do. No?
You quoted :-

Matthew 1:21-23 reads:
21) “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

John 12:31-33
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me."

Just my two cents.

 

[marks]

So now we have another issue: Is it all the people of the globe for all future generations? I think not. It must mean that he will draw from all peoples of the world, from everyone living anywhere. And so, this means not all, but chosen from all peoples of the world. And who is actually drawing people to Christ, it is the Father of course as the OP scripture describes.

Jesus is speaking in brevity that people should understand that the Father actually does the choosing or drawing because Jesus shall be uplifted into immortality and his spirit is presented to all that the Father chooses. So in a sense Jesus is credited with causing or indirectly doing the drawing and never the choosing. The Father has always done this and even today.

Hi APAK,

It seems to me in this explanation you've essentially reversed the statement that Jesus actually made.

The Gospel tells us about a Father Who draws some to His Son, but then, upon that Son's death, the Son then draws all to Himself.

You've used the Greek grammatical practice of "assumed nouns", to insert a different noun than the translators used, alright, I'm not going to debate the scholarship of your choice compared to theirs, I don't see the need. Because what really is the difference, draw all (men) or draw all (the world)? I don't think you are talking about the globe, the planet, rather, the people on it, is that correct?

And if so, then where is the understanding that Jesus will not draw all (the people in the world) to Himself? Do we agree on this?

The next step is to say that with "all the people in the world", you go on to say that "all" does not mean "all", but that it actually means "some". I don't like to do those kinds of word substitutions, as I think they can lead us in the wrong directions. I try to stay with the precise words spoken as best I can.

This topic reminds me of the disciples eating grain on the Sabbath.

The Pharisees took exception to that, complaining to Jesus that they were violating the Law. Jesus of course replied with David and his men eating the Bread of the Presence because they had need. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath. And therefore, Jesus said, the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is to serve man. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

All authority in heaven and earth has been given unto Me, Jesus said.

Therefore the Son of Man is Lord over all heaven and earth.

Because their is something about our Great High Priest that sets Him apart from all else as the One who is in charge over our welfare. I don't claim to understand everything about this.

It is for Jesus to say what the Sabbath is. Jesus has all authority, and He uses that authority for our good.

When Jesus died, He became our High Priest. Until that time, Jesus did nothing on His Own. Therefore Jesus would not draw men to Himself. He was not yet our Priest. He did nothing on His Own. He did nothing for Himself.

After that time, Jesus was given all authority, became the only Mediator be God and mankind, was qualified as the only Redeemer and Savior of man, and commanded this be shared with all the world.

So that's more how I think of it.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

So now we have another issue: Is it all the people of the globe for all future generations? I think not. It must mean that he will draw from all peoples of the world, from everyone living anywhere. And so, this means not all, but chosen from all peoples of the world. And who is actually drawing people to Christ, it is the Father of course as the OP scripture describes.

Jesus is speaking in brevity that people should understand that the Father actually does the choosing or drawing because Jesus shall be uplifted into immortality and his spirit is presented to all that the Father chooses. So in a sense Jesus is credited with causing or indirectly doing the drawing and never the choosing. The Father has always done this and even today.

Hi APAK,

It seems to me in this explanation you've essentially reversed the statement that Jesus actually made.

The Gospel tells us about a Father Who draws some to His Son, but then, upon that Son's death, the Son then draws all to Himself.

You've used the Greek grammatical practice of "assumed nouns", to insert a different noun than the translators used, alright, I'm not going to debate the scholarship of your choice compared to theirs, I don't see the need. Because what really is the difference, draw all (men) or draw all (the world)? I don't think you are talking about the globe, the planet, rather, the people on it, is that correct?

And if so, then where is the understanding that Jesus will not draw all (the people in the world) to Himself? Do we agree on this?

The next step is to say that with "all the people in the world", you go on to say that "all" does not mean "all", but that it actually means "some". I don't like to do those kinds of word substitutions, as I think they can lead us in the wrong directions. I try to stay with the precise words spoken as best I can.

This topic reminds me of the disciples eating grain on the Sabbath.

The Pharisees took exception to that, complaining to Jesus that they were violating the Law. Jesus of course replied with David and his men eating the Bread of the Presence because they had need. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath. And therefore, Jesus said, the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is to serve man. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

All authority in heaven and earth has been given unto Me, Jesus said.

Therefore the Son of Man is Lord over all heaven and earth.

Because their is something about our Great High Priest that sets Him apart from all else as the One who is in charge over our welfare. I don't claim to understand everything about this.

It is for Jesus to say what the Sabbath is. Jesus has all authority, and He uses that authority for our good.

When Jesus died, He became our High Priest. Until that time, Jesus did nothing on His Own. Therefore Jesus would not draw men to Himself. He was not yet our Priest. He did nothing on His Own. He did nothing for Himself.

After that time, Jesus was given all authority, became the only Mediator be God and mankind, was qualified as the only Redeemer and Savior of man, and commanded this be shared with all the world.

So that's more how I think of it.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Does the word all mean each and every man now? Most certainly not.

Why not?

It seems to me that you are taking "all", and asking, all what? And your answer is, after your intermediate step, "some men". That intermediate step being the Father's drawing. But why would this not change? Jesus is here giving us the change?

Either we come to understand that what Jesus said first was being changed by what was to come, or we understand that Jesus was not speaking very clearly in not qualifying His statement. So we have to assume "all" actually means "some".

Is that not so?

Much love!
mark

 

[APAK]

Hi APAK,

It seems to me in this explanation you've essentially reversed the statement that Jesus actually made.

The Gospel tells us about a Father Who draws some to His Son, but then, upon that Son's death, the Son then draws all to Himself.

You've used the Greek grammatical practice of "assumed nouns", to insert a different noun than the translators used, alright, I'm not going to debate the scholarship of your choice compared to theirs, I don't see the need. Because what really is the difference, draw all (men) or draw all (the world)? I don't think you are talking about the globe, the planet, rather, the people on it, is that correct?

And if so, then where is the understanding that Jesus will not draw all (the people in the world) to Himself? Do we agree on this?

The next step is to say that with "all the people in the world", you go on to say that "all" does not mean "all", but that it actually means "some". I don't like to do those kinds of word substitutions, as I think they can lead us in the wrong directions. I try to stay with the precise words spoken as best I can.

This topic reminds me of the disciples eating grain on the Sabbath.

The Pharisees took exception to that, complaining to Jesus that they were violating the Law. Jesus of course replied with David and his men eating the Bread of the Presence because they had need. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath. And therefore, Jesus said, the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is to serve man. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

All authority in heaven and earth has been given unto Me, Jesus said.

Therefore the Son of Man is Lord over all heaven and earth.

Because their is something about our Great High Priest that sets Him apart from all else as the One who is in charge over our welfare. I don't claim to understand everything about this.

It is for Jesus to say what the Sabbath is. Jesus has all authority, and He uses that authority for our good.

When Jesus died, He became our High Priest. Until that time, Jesus did nothing on His Own. Therefore Jesus would not draw men to Himself. He was not yet our Priest. He did nothing on His Own. He did nothing for Himself.

After that time, Jesus was given all authority, became the only Mediator be God and mankind, was qualified as the only Redeemer and Savior of man, and commanded this be shared with all the world.

So that's more how I think of it.

Much love!
Mark

Stop beating around the bush or you really do not understand this portion of scripture Mark. Jesus does draw all folks to him because of his death and his Father's power to bring him to new life. I would think Jesus would draw an audience and the reason believers are saved. It was a monumental event, indeed. So what is all this about reversing the meaning again. Look I cannot make you believe what you believe here. You have to take a deep breath and start looking at critical items such as context, scriptural harmony with others etc. You cannot just make up an appealing idea that sound good in your mind and disregard someone else comment outright.....

What part are you having difficulty with...'to himself' expression???? what then...and then you use faulty scripture as support for YOUR theory..about the Sabbath etc....too much man...slow down and think about it more

I'll be out of pocket for a bit Mark..later then

Bless you,

APAK

 

[marks]

Stop beating around the bush or you really do not understand this portion of scripture Mark. Jesus does draw all folks to him

OK then that's different, you were just saying that He actually didn't.

As far as "beating around the bush" or "really do not understand", you'd have be be more specific. I'm thinking I gave a clear presentation but perhaps you didn't like it.

So what is all this about reversing the meaning again.

That was because you were saying that even though the text said that Jesus would draw all men to Himself, you said that meant that the Father was still only drawing some men to Jesus. Your statement was that Jesus really meant that He, Jesus, would draw all of the some who the Father did draw.

I cited that as a reversal of the meaning of Jesus' statement.

Look I cannot make you believe what you believe here. You have to take a deep breath and start looking at critical items such as context, scriptural harmony with others etc.

Perhaps I could say the same to you, eh?

Maybe you need to take a seat, in a spinning chair, and spin in a few circles, and then read some more chapters. But what does that have to do with our discussion?

Aren't you simply saying I need to calm down and start doing some real Bible study? Am I missing the meaning of your statement? Or is this it?

And isn't this simply to impugne me on a personal level, rather than address the Scriptural points I've offered?

You cannot just make up an appealing idea that sound good in your mind and disregard someone else comment outright.....

More personal characterization without actual refutation.

What part are you having difficulty with...'to himself' expression???? what then...and then you use faulty scripture as support for YOUR theory..about the Sabbath etc....too much man...slow down and think about it more

Again, kind of going on about how bad I am, but no actual refutation.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Jun2u]

[QUOTE=""ByGrace", post: 536207, member: 4427"]If you read it all in context...it is speaking about judgement. So I read it as I will draw all judgement unto Me. Which is what He came to earth to do. No?[/QUOTE]

No. Jesus came to die on the cross to redeem the sins of those the Father gave to Him. Yes, judgment is in view, but not in the context you are suggesting. The context however is found in verses 27-31.

verse 27 - “...Father save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour, (sacrificial death).” Did not Jesus come to go to the cross?

Verse 28 – What did the Father glorify and will glorify it again? The name of the Father for sending His Son to die on the cross for our sins, and the name “exaltated on high” given to Jesus after the resurrection.

Verse 29 – explains itself.

Verse 30 – Jesus said this voice came not because of me, but for your sake... for our sake? Yes, if Jesus had not come to go to the cross there would be no salvation for mankind!!

Verse 31 – Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world (Satan) be cast out. The judgment was against Satan. Before Jesus went to the cross there were only a handful that were saved, about five hundred in Galilee and one hundred in the upper room.

Jesus was victorious at the cross by defeating Satan. After the resurrection at Pentecost Peter gives a sermon and three thousand were saved. Satan’s ability to hold people in total bondage diminished.

Verse 32 – If I be lifted up will draw all (the Father gave to me) John 6:37, 39.

Verse 33 – self explanatory.

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Waiting on him]

John 6:28 "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

No one can call him Lord but by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[marks]

too much man...slow down and think about it more

In retrospect . . . I'd like to add that perhaps you may consider this more. Jesus is Lord of All as our High Priest, and does all for our good.

Much love!
Mark