The fig tree Generation=Will Not Die Before the Rapture!

[Jay Ross]

Just so others know more about my answer, men's doctrines of Preterism (and Historicism to a point) believe Christ's Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. With the Greek word aion in Matt.24:3, which is translated as "world" in the KJV, they try to supplant that with the word "age" and then... here's the rub, and then they try to apply a different meaning to that word 'age' to make it say that was only the days of the Apostles, and that 'age' ended back then.

It's a very sneaky ploy by false doctrinists, but it's really a very silly and stupid ploy, because it's so... easy to know by Christ's context of His 2nd coming at the END OF THIS WORLD that His disciples were asking Him about that timing, and not some ignorant application of the end of the disciples' age.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

These Preterists are so easy to unmask! By their doctrine (especially Full Preterists) they HAVE... to treat Jesus' 2nd coming as already past history IF they push their falseness saying all those signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse were fulfilled back in the Apostle's days! And that's where you got 'em, because God's Word is very clear about prophecy of Jesus' future 2nd coming AND ITS CONDITIONS of what all it involves (our GATHERING TO HIM! PHYSICALLY!). So it's very easy to know where their false doctrines are coming from, because who would want to go against God's Word about the future return of our Lord Jesus Christ? Who wants to rule this world instead? Answer that to yourselves and you'll know where their doctrines originate.

Oh @Davy, you really love to twist words and put them into another’s mouth to falsify what they write to gain the apparent upper hand in a discussion. That is a ploy on your part and is easy to discern the false argument presented.

Now with respect to what I have consistently posted, I have written that Christ’s second coming, defined as when he returns on the Clouds with all of the heavenly Hosts, to begin the judgement at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement are recorded in Revelation 20, will occur at the end of the Millennium Age. With this being the case, and since we are presently coming to the end of the second age/generation of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers, as written within the commandments, Exodus 20:4-6, on their children and their children’s children, it is impossible to understand that αἰῶνος with the embedded Greek Root (G:0165) in it, as found in Matthew 24:3 is actually only referring to a singular age as you are suggesting. It is my view that in Matthew 24:3, it is referring to the end of the “ages” and not just to the end of an “age” as you are writing and posting in your rebuttals

The list of where αἰῶνος is found in the New Testament is as follows: - Matthew 13:22, 13:39, 13:40, 13:49, 24:3, 28:20, Mark 4:19, Luke 1:70, 16:8, 20:34, 20:35, John 9:32, Acts 3:21, 15:18, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 2:6, 2:6, 2:8, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 3:21, Hebrews 1:8, 6:5, 2 Peter 3:18, Jude 1:25.

Now if we only consider the first and the last verse where the Greek Word, αἰῶνος, is found in the New Testament we read the following: -

Matthew 13:22: - Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Jude 25: - 25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

Now in carefully reading the original texts on which the English Translations are based, then in both verses above, αἰῶνος, should be understood in the English translations as “ages” and not “age” as you are suggesting in your false argumentative rebuttal post above.

Now in forcibly arguing that the question(s) asked by the disciples included, and “of the end of the world,” is only supported by 10 of the 28 Translations listed at Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" reproduced below, where the English word “world” is used: -

1. New International Version: - age
2. New Living Translation: - world
3. English Standard Version: - age
4. Berean Study Bible: - age
5. Berean Literal Bible: - age
6. New American Standard Bible: - age
7. King James Bible: - world
8. Christian Standard Bible: - age
9. Contemporary English Version: - world
10. Good News Translation: - age.
11. Holman Christian Standard Bible: - age
12. International Standard Version: - age
13. NET Bible: - age
14. New Heart English Bible: - age
15. Aramaic Bible in Plain English: - world
16. GOD'S WORD® Translation: - world
17. New American Standard 1977: - age
18. Jubilee Bible 2000: - age
19. King James 2000 Bible: - world
20. American King James Version: - world
21. American Standard Version: - world
22. Douay-Rheims Bible: - world
23. Darby Bible Translation: - age
24. English Revised Version: - world
25. Webster's Bible Translation: - world
26. Weymouth New Testament: - Age
27. World English Bible: - age
28. Young's Literal Translation: - age

I would also contend that the use of the English Word “age” is not technically correct, and that the English word should be “ages” to be consistent in the translation of the Greek word, αἰῶνος.

Now going back to the Matthew 13:22, I would suggest that it should read thus: -

Matthew 13:22: - Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of the ages and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

And also for Jude 25, I would suggest that it should read as: -

Jude 25: - 25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both presently/now and in all of the ages.
Amen.

Sadly, I fear that you will now argue that the KJV is the only true inherent word of God and that all of the 18 translations that translates the Greek Word αἰῶνος as “age” are wrong.

Now to insist that the disciples asked when “the end of the world would be?”, implies explicitly that the present world will be destroyed, whereas, the scriptures clearly tell us that the present world will be refurbished like new again, after the Millennium Age, indicating that this present world is not destroyed and does not end.

Davy, can you please not use false arguments to discredit other posters as it only undermines any good points that you may make and does not edify the body of Christ as a whole.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, I am not making things fit me, but rather offering line upon line that which is given to me from God, in the same way that it has always been.

I wouldn't know about those other teachings, because I don't agree with them.

But, as for you, you are correct in reading the word, but not in understanding. You have not reconciled the fact that "the kingdom of heaven does not come with observation." So, then, when it says "will see all these things", you forget that it does not come with observation and expect to see in the world what the world cannot and will not see.

ScottA here is what God thinks of the line upon line concept of understanding and the teaching of the scriptures. Please note the outcome for those who teach by this method: -

Isaiah 28:1-15: - Woe to Ephraim and Jerusalem

28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,
Whose glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valleys,
To those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,
Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,
Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing,
Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,
Will be trampled underfoot;
4 And the glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valley,
Like the first fruit before the summer,
Which an observer sees;
He eats it up while it is still in his hand.

5 In that day the Lord of hosts will be
For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty
To the remnant of His people,
6 For a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.

9 "Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.

14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."

Scott, this portion of scripture is just as applicable today as it was when Isaiah wrote it and its warning is still clear for us to understand.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA here is what God thinks of the line upon line concept of understanding and the teaching of the scriptures. Please note the outcome for those who teach by this method: -

Isaiah 28:1-15: - Woe to Ephraim and Jerusalem

28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,
Whose glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valleys,
To those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,
Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,
Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing,
Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,
Will be trampled underfoot;
4 And the glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valley,
Like the first fruit before the summer,
Which an observer sees;
He eats it up while it is still in his hand.

5 In that day the Lord of hosts will be
For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty
To the remnant of His people,
6 For a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.

9 "Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.

14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."

Scott, this portion of scripture is just as applicable today as it was when Isaiah wrote it and its warning is still clear for us to understand.

Yes, just as applicable. Too bad you didn't understand it, but got it backwards.

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, just as applicable. Too bad you didn't understand it, but got it backwards.

In your opinion, but if I have understood the intent of Isaiah, he was being very severe on the priests and prophets.

If this passage is not applicable to you, then so be it, but I am reminded that what God reminds me of, from His scripture, is not revealed to me line by line as you are suggesting is the case with you.

 

[ScottA]

In your opinion, but if I have understood the intent of Isaiah, he was being very severe on the priests and prophets.

If this passage is not applicable to you, then so be it, but I am reminded that what God reminds me of, from His scripture, is not revealed to my line by line as you are suggesting is the case with you.

This is not about me.

But no, it is not line upon line to me...but rather that I have contributed line upon line, and you have not heard, as in verses 11 and 12:

"11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear."

 

[Jay Ross]

This is not about me.

But no, it is not line upon line to me...but rather that I have contributed line upon line, and you have not heard, as in verses 11 and 12:

"11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear."

Your defence/rebuttal confirms what I have posted. Thankyou.

 

[ScottA]

Your defence/rebuttal confirms what I have posted. Thankyou.

No...what you and I have posted do not at all agree...and the only thing that confirms, is that one of us is wrong.

 

[Phoneman777]

The fig tree generation is the generation that will not die till all things prophesied in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 be fulfilled. We are that generation.

Mt 24:32-34: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

It is the generation that will not die till they see the rapture, Jesus Christ coming in the clouds with a great army.

Fig tree in the Bible represents the Nation of Israel.

Hosea 9:10: I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time

Jesus often used the fig tree when talking about about Israel. In His life on the world,

The fig tree (the nation of Israel) was to be barren, cursed and replanted and was may 15, 1948 and will have their 70th birthday next month.

God made plain through Solomon (2 Chronicles 6:24-25 KJV) and Jeremiah (Jeremiah 3:12-18 KJV) that His mercy does not cripple His justice: there must first come repentance before there can be deliverance. We can't find one occasion in all the Bible where God gathered His people back to their land after they were He scattered them for disobedience without their having first repented of it.

Question: Have the people who today occupy the ancient land of Israel ever repented of crucifying Jesus Christ our Messiah?

The answer is no - to this day they have not. So, based on established Biblical criteria, did God have anything to do with the events of 1948, or did "Babylon", the "kings of the Earth" and the "merchants of the Earth" of Revelation 18 - that which is described today as the New World Order - have a hand in these events, in order that credibility in Jesuit Futurism might be established - which includes the "Secret Rapture" idea - as part of the final end times deception before the return of Jesus?

 

[Davy]

Oh @Davy, you really love to twist words and put them into another’s mouth to falsify what they write to gain the apparent upper hand in a discussion. That is a ploy on your part and is easy to discern the false argument presented.

Now with respect to what I have consistently posted, I have written that Christ’s second coming, defined as when he returns on the Clouds with all of the heavenly Hosts, to begin the judgement at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement are recorded in Revelation 20, will occur at the end of the Millennium Age. With this being the case, and since we are presently coming to the end of the second age/generation of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers, as written within the commandments, Exodus 20:4-6, on their children and their children’s children, it is impossible to understand that αἰῶνος with the embedded Greek Root (G:0165) in it, as found in Matthew 24:3 is actually only referring to a singular age as you are suggesting. It is my view that in Matthew 24:3, it is referring to the end of the “ages” and not just to the end of an “age” as you are writing and posting in your rebuttals
....

Really a show of ignorance to try and change the context of the whole Matthew 24 Chapter of signs for the end that Jesus gave His Church to be watching by translation of one little Greek word aion!

Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aion)?
KJV

Were they asking our Lord Jesus about the very end of this world? YES! How can we know? By that large type part about the sign of His second coming!

That verse hard-links the time of Jesus' 2nd coming with their question about the end of the world. Can't be separated. So has... our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happened yet today??? NO!

And if any brother or sister in Christ Jesus meets someone claiming our Lord Jesus' second coming has already happened, then run, because you know that one is false, and an antichrist.

 

[Davy]

ScottA here is what God thinks of the line upon line concept of understanding and the teaching of the scriptures. Please note the outcome for those who teach by this method: -

Isaiah 28:1-15: - Woe to Ephraim and Jerusalem

28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,
Whose glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valleys,
To those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,
Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,
Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing,
Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,
Will be trampled underfoot;
4 And the glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valley,
Like the first fruit before the summer,
Which an observer sees;
He eats it up while it is still in his hand.

5 In that day the Lord of hosts will be
For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty
To the remnant of His people,
6 For a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.

9 "Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.

14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."

Scott, this portion of scripture is just as applicable today as it was when Isaiah wrote it and its warning is still clear for us to understand.

Not that I agree with what Scott teaches, but Jay, you are wrong on that interpretation of Isaiah 28.

It is God's rebellious people there in Isaiah 28 whom God is mocking with that "precept upon precept..." idea. They are the ones saying that in Isaiah 28:10, as God is using their own words. In the Hebrew it the words sound like a mocking song.

The idea is that God's Word is... precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little. That is how it's to be studied, but they mocked that method, meaning they instead made up their own doctrines. And by the time of the Babylon captivity it would get worse, as the Jews made their Babylonian Talmud writings more important to follow than God's Holy Writ. This is why God then repeats the "precept upon precept..." here:

Isa 28:12-13
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
KJV

The idea is not that God's Word isn't to be studied like that; it's that they refused... to do it that way, it was too difficult for them, just as it still is today, even in many Christian Churches who only give you one or two verses each Sunday. And for this reason - "that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

It is never... those who jump about in God's Word never disciplining themselves in it that become a true 'workman' in The Word of God. It's those who instead discipline themselves in it, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. After all the word discipline comes from the idea of disciple (and visa versa).

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh, @Davy, it is sad that you have only referred to the transliterated word for the Greek Root, G:0163 aión in your rebuttal and not the actual transliterated word found at the end of the verse Matt 24: 3 which is aiōnos, a very different transliterated Greek word than the one you are claiming is found in the text. The Greek Root word G:0165, is αἰών whereas in the Greek Text of Matt 24: 3 the Greek word is αἰῶνος. Davy, let us compare apples with apples, and not apples with lemons as you have done in your rebuttal post.

Referencing the attached PDF Strong definition for G:0165 we can see that it points to a meaning of “an age” rather than to the :world” which is arrived at by implication.

Now if we consider the definition in the attached PDH, then the meaning of an “age” seems to be the dominate meaning given for this Strong’s definition of the Greek word. Now the scholars associated with the original KJV translation are the ones who set the tradition that αἰῶνος should be understood to have the meaning of “world”. The very charge that you have levelled at me when you wrote the following which you were directing at me: - “Really a show of ignorance to try and change the context of the whole Matthew 24 Chapter of signs for the end that Jesus gave His Church to be watching by translation of one little Greek word aion!”, should, perhaps, be levelled at the original translators of the KJV way back when the “traditions” of men began to dominate the way in which the various translations developed. In my previous post, I highlighted that αἰῶνος was translated as “age” in 18 of the 28 times that this Greek Word is found in the New Testament and only 10 of the 28 times it is found in the Greek text as “world”.

Perhaps, Davy, your staunch defence of the KJV translation is being lost in this back and forth discussion between us over this one little word.

I know that I am not attempting to put words into your mouth, so to speak, however, there are others who also hold to the views for the translation of this words and their view does not do any injustice to the understanding of this chapter as you are suggesting.

So be it Davy, but any further discussion on this small point seems to be to be pointless.

Have a good day now.

 

[Davy]

Oh, @Davy, it is sad that you have only referred to the transliterated word for the Greek Root, G:0163 aión in your rebuttal and not the actual transliterated word found at the end of the verse Matt 24: 3 which is aiōnos, a very different transliterated Greek word than the one you are claiming is found in the text. The Greek Root word G:0165, is αἰών whereas in the Greek Text of Matt 24: 3 the Greek word is αἰῶνος. Davy, let us compare apples with apples, and not apples with lemons as you have done in your rebuttal post.

....

So be it Davy, but any further discussion on this small point seems to be to be pointless.

No need for any discussion with those on a false doctrine of man, which is what that sole pivot doctrine on the Greek word aion of Matt.24:3 is. It's truly a funny doctrine; it's ignorance of suggesting it can change the timing of events Jesus gave about the end of this world with His 2nd coming is just ludicrous.