The final harvest?

[rwb]

Of course, there is a big difference between God's pure Kingdom and earthly kingdoms in the present age. Christian kingdoms can begin strong and end weak and compromised--sometimes even completely apostate, such as Russia. So you're right that there can never be a complete and total comparison between God's Kingdom and kingdoms on this present earth.

But the point is, if in the Bible God's Kingdom has in some way been viewed as synonymous with earthly kingdoms, then why not in a Millennial Age? It wouldn't be the "New Earth," but it would be some form of successful Christian government!

The problem for you Randy is showing there can be a physical millennial Kingdom of God on this earth in any form??? You ASSUME Christ will come to establish a physical Kingdom on this earth but ignore that Christ has already come with a Kingdom that is NOT of this world, is not observable, because His Kingdom is not now a physical Kingdom, but is a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever is of faith in Christ. Why does Christ tell us that His Kingdom is not now of this world if His Kingdom would one day be physically on this earth?

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem for you Randy is showing there can be a physical millennial Kingdom of God on this earth in any form??? You ASSUME Christ will come to establish a physical Kingdom on this earth but ignore that Christ has already come with a Kingdom that is NOT of this world, is not observable, because His Kingdom is not now a physical Kingdom, but is a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever is of faith in Christ. Why does Christ tell us that His Kingdom is not now of this world if His Kingdom would one day be physically on this earth?

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Exactly. He didn't say right now His kingdom did not come with observation and was not of this world but one day it would be. No. He said His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world. Period. Premils don't accept this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If the Kingdom of God is near through the Gospel, how can it not yet be here?

I had this discussion with an acquaintance back in the 80s. He was part of a Christian movement that believed in "Power Evangelism." He thought we have victory over Satan, and prevail in our ministries in the world. We are saved, sanctified, and empowered. And if we obey God's word we will be blessed.

Trouble with this is, it sounds good but it completely impractical as it works out. We cannot cast Satan out of the world. We cannot heal every disease. We cannot force the world to convert. We have to let the weeds grow up until the harvest because some that look deserving of judgment will actually repent.

The Kingdom is "near" precisely because we have Salvation now, and experience the power of the Holy Spirit in our ministry. But we also suffer setbacks from both the world and Satan. Indeed, we suffer our own weaknesses and we strive to overcome the flesh and sin.

So no, we are not yet in the Kingdom. It remains "near," in my opinion. The Kingdom comes, according to Dan 7, when the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven.

The Kingdom of God is both near, and has come, but not yet completely because the Gospel is still being heard and the Kingdom of God in heaven is not yet complete, for the last of the Gentiles have not yet entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven according to grace through faith.

The Kingdom did come, in a sense, to Israel via the Law. God dwelled in the midst of Israel and ruled through the Davidic kings. The Kingdom also came, in a sense, to Israel when Messiah himself came.

But as you said, the Kingdom never came completely. The world is still fallen, and Christian rule is not yet imposed upon the world. That day will come.

I agree with the analogy of an agricultural process being the reason this world has not been destroyed. We err when we look for a manifestation of a physical Kingdom of God to come to this earth as evidence the Kingdom of God is complete. Unless we understand the Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in shall not be physical and is both spiritually near and here for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord.

Yes, in the sense that we have already received Salvation, the Kingdom has come to us, though not to this fallen world. I do agree that the physical manifestation of the Kingdom in this age is a false reality if it is claimed to be such. The Kingdom is spiritual and within--I think we're both agreed on that?

When the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete through Gentiles of faith, then Christ will come again and this earth shall then be utterly destroyed by the fire of God that will come down from heaven. Those of faith will not be on this earth when the fire comes down, we will have partaken of the final harvest that will come when the last trumpet sounds.

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem for you Randy is showing there can be a physical millennial Kingdom of God on this earth in any form??? You ASSUME Christ will come to establish a physical Kingdom on this earth but ignore that Christ has already come with a Kingdom that is NOT of this world, is not observable, because His Kingdom is not now a physical Kingdom, but is a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever is of faith in Christ. Why does Christ tell us that His Kingdom is not now of this world if His Kingdom would one day be physically on this earth?

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

See my other response to your post.

 

[rwb]

I had this discussion with an acquaintance back in the 80s. He was part of a Christian movement that believed in "Power Evangelism." He thought we have victory over Satan, and prevail in our ministries in the world. We are saved, sanctified, and empowered. And if we obey God's word we will be blessed.

Trouble with this is, it sounds good but it completely impractical as it works out. We cannot cast Satan out of the world. We cannot heal every disease. We cannot force the world to convert. We have to let the weeds grow up until the harvest because some that look deserving of judgment will actually repent.

The Kingdom is "near" precisely because we have Salvation now, and experience the power of the Holy Spirit in our ministry. But we also suffer setbacks from both the world and Satan. Indeed, we suffer our own weaknesses and we strive to overcome the flesh and sin.

So no, we are not yet in the Kingdom. It remains "near," in my opinion. The Kingdom comes, according to Dan 7, when the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven.

Randy, none of this has any bearing on the fact that the Kingdom of God is both near and here since the advent of Christ. We know from Dan 7 that Christ received glory, power, honor and dominion, a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection. Christ is ruling and reigning over His people of all nations from heaven. We enter into this spiritual Kingdom in heaven the moment we are born again of the Spirit and have eternal spiritual life through Him. It is in this manner the Kingdom is both near and here since the coming of Christ to this earth.

It is written that Christ ascended to heaven, and the vision Daniel is shown is Christ ascending to heaven to rule and reign over all people (Jew & Gentile of faith) nations, and languages.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Kingdom did come, in a sense, to Israel via the Law. God dwelled in the midst of Israel and ruled through the Davidic kings. The Kingdom also came, in a sense, to Israel when Messiah himself came.

But as you said, the Kingdom never came completely. The world is still fallen, and Christian rule is not yet imposed upon the world. That day will come.

According to Christ the fact that He was able to cast out demons proves the Kingdom of God has come. And it is very near, only a spoken Gospel away, for whosoever shall hear and believe have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. The problem man runs into is in seeking a physical or material Kingdom of Christ on this earth. It's not that His Kingdom has not fully come, it is just that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is not yet complete and will not be until the last of the Gentiles come into the spiritual Kingdom of God according to grace through faith when they are born again of the Spirit.

Yes, in the sense that we have already received Salvation, the Kingdom has come to us, though not to this fallen world. I do agree that the physical manifestation of the Kingdom in this age is a false reality if it is claimed to be such. The Kingdom is spiritual and within--I think we're both agreed on that?

Through the power of His Gospel sent unto all this fallen world, all who will be saved are coming into the spiritual Kingdom of God now. The Gospel is being and will be proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, but not all in this fallen world will be changed through it. The Kingdom of God we enter through the power of the Holy Spirit in us is indeed extended throughout this fallen world. The message about Christ, the Gospel is freely offered unto ALL people now, and whosoever hears and believes throughout this fallen world shall be saved. Those who remain in unbelief when Christ comes again will be burned up and will stand before the GWTJ to give account for what is found written in the books and the book of life. Once Christ comes again, there will be no more hope for those who refuse to believe. Their fate will be sealed when Christ returns. They will all be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[Mr E]

Musical interlude.......

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, none of this has any bearing on the fact that the Kingdom of God is both near and here since the advent of Christ. We know from Dan 7 that Christ received glory, power, honor and dominion, a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection. Christ is ruling and reigning over His people of all nations from heaven. We enter into this spiritual Kingdom in heaven the moment we are born again of the Spirit and have eternal spiritual life through Him. It is in this manner the Kingdom is both near and here since the coming of Christ to this earth.

It is written that Christ ascended to heaven, and the vision Daniel is shown is Christ ascending to heaven to rule and reign over all people (Jew & Gentile of faith) nations, and languages.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



According to Christ the fact that He was able to cast out demons proves the Kingdom of God has come. And it is very near, only a spoken Gospel away, for whosoever shall hear and believe have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. The problem man runs into is in seeking a physical or material Kingdom of Christ on this earth. It's not that His Kingdom has not fully come, it is just that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is not yet complete and will not be until the last of the Gentiles come into the spiritual Kingdom of God according to grace through faith when they are born again of the Spirit.


Through the power of His Gospel sent unto all this fallen world, all who will be saved are coming into the spiritual Kingdom of God now. The Gospel is being and will be proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, but not all in this fallen world will be changed through it. The Kingdom of God we enter through the power of the Holy Spirit in us is indeed extended throughout this fallen world. The message about Christ, the Gospel is freely offered unto ALL people now, and whosoever hears and believes throughout this fallen world shall be saved. Those who remain in unbelief when Christ comes again will be burned up and will stand before the GWTJ to give account for what is found written in the books and the book of life. Once Christ comes again, there will be no more hope for those who refuse to believe. Their fate will be sealed when Christ returns. They will all be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

I don't disagree that Christian Salvation has already come, is here now. I'm disagreeing with your confusion about the Kingdom being "here," and yet admitting that it is not yet "complete." If it is not yet "complete," then it is not yet fully "here."

Amillennialists typically like to claim that the Millennium is already here, and in that sense Christ's Kingdom is already here. But Jesus never meant to indicate that his presence with us means the Kingdom has fully come. It remains "near," and is not yet fully here!

Everything written about Jesus coming with his Kingdom remains future. Denying that, and saying that present Salvation fulfills that is false, in my opinion.

I'll say it again:
1) Until Satan is completely cast out, and completely imprisoned, the Kingdom is not yet here. We *cannot* cast Satan out of the world through the Gospel of our present Salvation! We can cast demons out of people, but we cannot cast Satan out of the world.
2) As long as unbelievers and unbelieving, pagan nations resist God's rule on earth, the Kingdom is not yet. The Gospel of our present Salvation does not allow us to impose Christ's rule across the earth--not until Christ actually returns and judges the earth.

All of the things we get with our present Salvation achieves for us our promises in Christ, which is held in reserve for us by Christ in heaven presently. But I do not believe it is here yet. We have but a deposit on our inheritance. Our future glorification is future, and that's when I think the Kingdom actually comes.

 

[rwb]

I don't disagree that Christian Salvation has already come, is here now. I'm disagreeing with your confusion about the Kingdom being "here," and yet admitting that it is not yet "complete." If it is not yet "complete," then it is not yet fully "here."

Amillennialists typically like to claim that the Millennium is already here, and in that sense Christ's Kingdom is already here. But Jesus never meant to indicate that his presence with us means the Kingdom has fully come. It remains "near," and is not yet fully here!

Everything written about Jesus coming with his Kingdom remains future. Denying that, and saying that present Salvation fulfills that is false, in my opinion.

I'll say it again:
1) Until Satan is completely cast out, and completely imprisoned, the Kingdom is not yet here. We *cannot* cast Satan out of the world through the Gospel of our present Salvation! We can cast demons out of people, but we cannot cast Satan out of the world.
2) As long as unbelievers and unbelieving, pagan nations resist God's rule on earth, the Kingdom is not yet. The Gospel of our present Salvation does not allow us to impose Christ's rule across the earth--not until Christ actually returns and judges the earth.

All of the things we get with our present Salvation achieves for us our promises in Christ, which is held in reserve for us by Christ in heaven presently. But I do not believe it is here yet. We have but a deposit on our inheritance. Our future glorification is future, and that's when I think the Kingdom actually comes.

Randy I am not confused! You seem to be looking or waiting for a material manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world. We know the Kingdom of God has come and is not observed through natural vision, because the Kingdom of God is not physical, but spiritual. You say the Kingdom of God is not yet here, so listen to what Christ has to say about the Kingdom. Christ came casting out devils, proof the Kingdom of God has come, but the Kingdom of God is within us, which is why we cannot see the Kingdom of God now in this world.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you..

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Although the Kingdom of God has come to mankind with the advent of Christ, the spiritual Kingdom of God cannot be complete until all who shall be saved are physically born. We can't see the Kingdom of God through physical sight, but we KNOW it can be spiritually entered when we have been born again by His Spirit. We have to be physically born before we can be born again or born from above.

You seem to be the only arguing that the Kingdom of God must fully come? Just because the Kingdom of God shall not be complete until the last to be saved enters into the Kingdom, does not mean that the Kingdom of God has not fully come to mankind. It is both here, and near to whosoever shall believe. Your opinion is not supported through Scripture. Yes, Amil does indeed believe a thousand years symbolically equate to TIME that began with the first advent of Christ and will not be finished until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. Amil shows this is the only way to understand a thousand years that does not introduce contradiction into God's Word, and in fact the only end time eschatological point of view that finds harmony throughout Scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy I am not confused!

Sorry, I meant that your statement *confused me!* I said that wrong. Apologies.

You seem to be looking or waiting for a material manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world.

I am.

We know the Kingdom of God has come and is not observed through natural vision, because the Kingdom of God is not physical, but spiritual.

Jesus placed a premium on the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom, which *precedes* the physical manifestation of the Kingdom. The spiritual first, and then the material realization.

We began in a natural world, a physical world. But then we sinned, and the world fell short of God's Kingdom.

At that point, God began to restore things by spiritual means--1st the spiritual, and later, the natural, or physical restoration. 1st Christ and his Salvation, and later, a whole new world.

1 Cor 15.48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

We have not yet borne the image of the heavenly man. That will come with a new heaven and a new earth, as well as with the resurrection to glory. So, according to Paul's formula, we have 1) the natural, pristine world, 2) the spiritual Salvation of Christ, and 3) natural restoration via resurrection.

You say the Kingdom of God is not yet here, so listen to what Christ has to say about the Kingdom. Christ came casting out devils, proof the Kingdom of God has come, but the Kingdom of God is within us, which is why we cannot see the Kingdom of God now in this world.

Well, I know this and have already indicated as such. Christ came and brought the Kingdom near. In him the Kingdom was present with us, though not yet consummated. He was here to die, and not yet to reign. The powers that he gave to us through Salvation is not the material reality that will be once the enemies of God are fully judged and destroyed. If we did not have any powers in our Salvation now, we would not be saved at all!

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you..

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Although the Kingdom of God has come to mankind with the advent of Christ, the spiritual Kingdom of God cannot be complete until all who shall be saved are physically born. We can't see the Kingdom of God through physical sight, but we KNOW it can be spiritually entered when we have been born again by His Spirit. We have to be physically born before we can be born again or born from above.

You seem to be the only arguing that the Kingdom of God must fully come? Just because the Kingdom of God shall not be complete until the last to be saved enters into the Kingdom, does not mean that the Kingdom of God has not fully come to mankind. It is both here, and near to whosoever shall believe. Your opinion is not supported through Scripture. Yes, Amil does indeed believe a thousand years symbolically equate to TIME that began with the first advent of Christ and will not be finished until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. Amil shows this is the only way to understand a thousand years that does not introduce contradiction into God's Word, and in fact the only end time eschatological point of view that finds harmony throughout Scripture.

Well, I'm not arguing for or against Amil right now--just stating what you just said, that the Kingdom is not yet "complete." That is where my confusion came in, in your saying that the Kingdom is "here," and yet remains *incomplete.* This is a contradiction to me. But I do recognize that it is a nuanced view associated with Amillennialism. That's okay. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[rwb]

I am.

The Kingdom of God is forever! How could it be physically manifested on this earth since this earth is destined to be burned up with everything on it? If the Kingdom of God comes to this earth, then it cannot be unending and forever!

Jesus placed a premium on the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom, which *precedes* the physical manifestation of the Kingdom. The spiritual first, and then the material realization.

We began in a natural world, a physical world. But then we sinned, and the world fell short of God's Kingdom.

At that point, God began to restore things by spiritual means--1st the spiritual, and later, the natural, or physical. 1st Christ and his Salvation, and later, a whole new world.

1 Cor 15.48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

We have not yet borne the image of the heavenly man. That will come with a new heaven and a new earth, as well as with the resurrection to glory

This verse speaks of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Believers ascend alive to heaven after our physical body dies, a living (spiritual) soul. Since the realm of God is not physical but a spiritual habitation, we shall then be the image of Christ, a spirit being or as Paul says we shall belong to a spiritual body in heaven. As on this earth we bear the image of natural, earthly man, so too in heaven we shall bear the image of the celestial/heavenly/spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Only our spirit ascends to heaven after our body has died, because our flesh shall not be immortal & incorruptible until an hour coming when the last trump sounds. And neither flesh & blood, nor corruption can enter there. Since our spirit became eternally alive when we were born again of His Spirit, our spirits go to heaven with eternal life and can never die. That is why Christ promised that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die.

The Kingdom of God now being built in heaven shall never be a physical Kingdom upon this earth. After this earth has passed away, a new heaven and new earth will come down. The living spirits present in heaven with the Lord will come back with Christ and be reunited with a resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh, then we shall be complete living soul again.

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Well, I'm not arguing for or against Amil right now--just stating what you just said, that the Kingdom is not yet "complete." That is where my confusion came in, in your saying that the Kingdom is "here," and yet remains *incomplete.* This is a contradiction to me. But I do recognize that it is a nuanced view associated with Amillennialism. That's okay. Thanks for the explanation.

Of course the Kingdom of God in heaven, the same Kingdom spiritually within us is not yet complete. As Christ has said the Kingdom of God has come and we have been entering into His Kingdom through His Spirit since He has come. You call it a contradiction that the Kingdom of God is here but is not yet complete. Maybe I should say is not yet finished being built. When the last person to be saved is born and enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God according to grace through faith, then the spiritual Kingdom will be completely finished and the saints of Christ shall live with Him forever on the new earth where there shall be no more death, no more sorrow, for all things then shall be new again.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus said world history is like an agricultural year, in which the hoped-for crops would have to mature. In order for this to happen, weeds would have to be allowed to mature as well. The Lord has no wish to immediately destroy what looks like weeds when they may turn out to be part of the crops.

This age is characterized by God's Kingdom appearing as near through the ministry of Christ's Gospel. And yet, it cannot yet be here because of this agricultural process. God is not willing to comprehensively destroy the world as it is because He is still developing His crops.

There are still judgments from God going on all through NT history, and yet comprehensive judgment, indicated by the Flood story, is not ready to come until this maturing process of God's crops is completed. What do you think indicates in our day this harvest is coming to completion?

The "mark of the beast" to all the world will separate the sheep from the goats, of those who take it and those who won't.
Once the "MoB" has been manifested and voluntarily enforced, all people alive at that time, will have decided for Christ or against Christ, aka the time of "a falling away" from faith into apostasy. In that moment, God Himself will END is Age of Grace.

KJV 2 Thes. 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words: "that [the]** man of sin" is to be understood in the plural, as being many who are without Christ. Rom. 8:9.
All of such are now being revealed throughout the whole world, being of that spirit of antichrist, which infects and affects many to committ acts of lawless-ness.

**Note: the Textus Receptus Greek Text uses the word "the" and not "that", which allows it to be understood in the plural, as is the context.

 

[Cassandra]

It's really sad that some Christian people dont know who the kenites are. I respect other people's beliefs and opinions. Lack of knowledge is the downfall for many people near future. Ephesians chapter 6, the gospel armour is knowledge and wisdom of God's word.
Matthew chapter 13. .parable of the tares and wheat.
Jesus is teaching the harvest of the end times. The wheat are seed of Abraham.
The tares are seed of the devil.
Who are the Tares? Thier kenites.
If you dont understand what happened in garden of eden, your armour is off, and your defenseless against antichrist lies and deception near future. Get the picture.
Genesis chapter 3 and Corinthians chapter 11. Eve was beguiled by the serpent, who is satan. She had sexual relations with satan. Then Adam knew his wife, eve. She had twins. Cain and abel. Two different fathers.
NAGA in Hebrew means/ To Touch.
Eve was beguiled by the serpent, sexual intercourse.
The kenites are offspring of Cain. Thier the seed of the devil. This is what Jesus taught in parable of Matthew chapter 13. The Tares are kenites.
Those who reject the truth, have strong delusions.
Second thessalonians chapter 2. . God has been sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Some people have spirit of stupor.
Those with spirt of stupor or strong delusions, will worship antichrist near future.
Faith is the key. Sadly, some people lack faith or their closed minded.
Without gospel armory on, many people will worship antichrist near future.

Jethro was a kenite, wasnt he? Judges1:16 16 The descendants of Moses’ father-in-law, the Kenite, went up from the City of Palms with the people of Judah to live among the inhabitants of the Desert of Judah in the Negev near Arad.

Does that mean that Moses wife and sons were related to hmm......

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Kingdom of God is forever! How could it be physically manifested on this earth since this earth is destined to be burned up with everything on it? If the Kingdom of God comes to this earth, then it cannot be unending and forever!



This verse speaks of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Believers ascend alive to heaven after our physical body dies, a living (spiritual) soul. Since the realm of God is not physical but a spiritual habitation, we shall then be the image of Christ, a spirit being or as Paul says we shall belong to a spiritual body in heaven. As on this earth we bear the image of natural, earthly man, so too in heaven we shall bear the image of the celestial/heavenly/spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Only our spirit ascends to heaven after our body has died, because our flesh shall not be immortal & incorruptible until an hour coming when the last trump sounds. And neither flesh & blood, nor corruption can enter there. Since our spirit became eternally alive when we were born again of His Spirit, our spirits go to heaven with eternal life and can never die. That is why Christ promised that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die.

The Kingdom of God now being built in heaven shall never be a physical Kingdom upon this earth. After this earth has passed away, a new heaven and new earth will come down. The living spirits present in heaven with the Lord will come back with Christ and be reunited with a resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh, then we shall be complete living soul again.

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



Of course the Kingdom of God in heaven, the same Kingdom spiritually within us is not yet complete. As Christ has said the Kingdom of God has come and we have been entering into His Kingdom through His Spirit since He has come. You call it a contradiction that the Kingdom of God is here but is not yet complete. Maybe I should say is not yet finished being built. When the last person to be saved is born and enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God according to grace through faith, then the spiritual Kingdom will be completely finished and the saints of Christ shall live with Him forever on the new earth where there shall be no more death, no more sorrow, for all things then shall be new again.

Okay, at least I understand where you're coming from. I personally believe that the New Earth will be natural and earthy--not spiritual and heavenly.

But you have some points. What comes down from heaven is bound to be "heavenly," of sorts. I just see a "resurrection" as a *physical resurrection." Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

 

[ewq1938]

KJV 2 Thes. 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words: "that [the]** man of sin" is to be understood in the plural, as being many who are without Christ. Rom. 8:9.

No, Paul used MAN singukar, and SON singular. To change it to plural is to use eisegesis.

All of such are now being revealed throughout the whole world, being of that spirit of antichrist, which infects and affects many to committ acts of lawless-ness.

**Note: the Textus Receptus Greek Text uses the word "the" and not "that", which allows it to be understood in the plural, as is the context.

That's false. That does not come from Greek grammar. It doesn't even come from English grammar. You have made that up to support your personal claim that man of sin means "men" of sin.

 

[rwb]

Okay, at least I understand where you're coming from. I personally believe that the New Earth will be natural and earthy--not spiritual and heavenly.

But you have some points. What comes down from heaven is bound to be "heavenly," of sorts. I just see a "resurrection" as a *physical resurrection." Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

Yes, Randy I agree. The new earth will be natural. I believe as it was in the beginning when all things were created by God and pronounced "very good." The body of believers returns to earth when we die, but our eternal spirit, as I've already said, returns to God in heaven ALIVE. We won't be whole again until our spirit returns with Christ and is reunited with our immortal & incorruptible changed body.

That which comes down from heaven absolutely is our heavenly/celestial spirit, which shall give our resurrected body life, just as the Spirit of God gave us the breath of life when He created man. But on the new earth it will once again be fit for earth, but then without corruption and death. All things shall be made new again. There will be nothing impure, or corruptible, no sin, sickness, sorrow or death, no evil of any sort shall be on the new earth after this first earth has passed away.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, Randy I agree. The new earth will be natural. I believe as it was in the beginning when all things were created by God and pronounced "very good." The body of believers returns to earth when we die, but our eternal spirit, as I've already said, returns to God in heaven ALIVE. We won't be whole again until our spirit returns with Christ and is reunited with our immortal & incorruptible changed body.

That which comes down from heaven absolutely is our heavenly/celestial spirit, which shall give our resurrected body life, just as the Spirit of God gave us the breath of life when He created man. But on the new earth it will once again be fit for earth, but then without corruption and death. All things shall be made new again. There will be nothing impure, or corruptible, no sin, sickness, sorrow or death, no evil of any sort shall be on the new earth after this first earth has passed away.

Your view of a *material* resurrection would seem to upend your entire argument against the material nature of restoration. If God restored Israel in the OT era in a "material" way, why can't that happen *before* the New Earth?

Any way you look at it, that "Kingdom," ie the "New Earth," is not yet "here!" The way I see it, the only thing that is now "here," with respect to God's Kingdom, is Salvation. And that is not the sense in which Jesus proclaimed his Kingdom was coming, in my view.

 

[jeffweeder]

Your view of a *material* resurrection would seem to upend your entire argument against the material nature of restoration. If God restored Israel in the OT era in a "material" way, why can't that happen *before* the New Earth?

God never restored Israel with Eden like conditions. Once the Gospel has run its course regarding all people of the world, then all who have excepted the truth and are born of his Spirit, will inherit the NHNE...The restoration of all things from the foundation of the world

Any way you look at it, that "Kingdom," ie the "New Earth," is not yet "here!" The way I see it, the only thing that is now "here," with respect to God's Kingdom, is Salvation. And that is not the sense in which Jesus proclaimed his Kingdom was coming, in my view.

He ascended to heaven (Fathers house) to prepare a place for us. First the Spirit is sent to those who believe so they can inherit this place when the end comes. Once the Gospel has run its course in the world then the end will come.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God never restored Israel with Eden like conditions. Once the Gospel has run its course regarding all people of the world, then all who have excepted the truth and are born of his Spirit, will inherit the NHNE...The restoration of all things from the foundation of the world

He ascended to heaven (Fathers house) to prepare a place for us. First the Spirit is sent to those who believe so they can inherit this place when the end comes. Once the Gospel has run its course in the world then the end will come.

1st, I have to say that I think you're misinterpreting what Jesus meant when he said "I go to prepare a place for you." I think he was headed for the Cross, where he prepared a place for us by dying for our sins. It had nothing to do with him going to heaven to build us a palace.

2nd, I don't know why NT restoration must be equated with *perfect restoration* as you do? If material restoration worked for Israel in the OT era, it can work in the NT era, as well. And if in the Millennial Age, it is the same old sinful age, with the caveat that Satan has been bound, then we can still have a material restoration such as exists now for nations who go through revival.

Of course, if you begin with an Amillennial mindset, this obviously won't work for you. Granted.

 

[jeffweeder]

1st, I have to say that I think you're misinterpreting what Jesus meant when he said "I go to prepare a place for you." I think he was headed for the Cross, where he prepared a place for us by dying for our sins. It had nothing to do with him going to heaven to build us a palace.

Well yes. That ultimately prepared a place for the repentant, so they could receive the Holy Spirit by being washed clean.

2nd, I don't know why NT restoration must be equated with *perfect restoration* as you do? If material restoration worked for Israel in the OT era, it can work in the NT era, as well. And if in the Millennial Age, it is the same old sinful age, with the caveat that Satan has been bound, then we can still have a material restoration such as exists now for nations who go through revival.

Restoration by definition didnt work for them as they became exiled again. That kind of restoration was just a band aid. This would have been a vicious circle if it wasnt for Jesus blood bringing an end to sin through his sacrifice once and for all. 70 weeks were decreed for the hope of everlasting righteous and anointing of the Holy place for the repentant sinner.

1. Hebrews 9:12
   He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation ofall who personally believe in Him as Savior].
   Hebrews 10:20
2. by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh,

Of course, if you begin with an Amillennial mindset, this obviously won't work for you. Granted.

18 Now where there is [absolute] forgiveness and complete cancellation of the penalty of these things, there is no longer any offering [to be made to atone] for sin.

​

19 Therefore, believers, since we have confidence and full freedom to enter the Holy Place [the place where God dwells] by [means of] the blood of Jesus, 20 by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great and wonderful Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, 22 let us approach [God] with a true and sincere heart in unqualified assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us seize and hold tightly the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is reliable and trustworthy and faithful [to His word]; 24 and let us consider [thoughtfully] how we may encourage one another to love and to do good deeds, 25 not forsaking our meeting together [as believers for worship and instruction], as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more [faithfully] as you see the day [of Christ’s return] approaching.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well yes. That ultimately prepared a place for the repentant, so they could receive the Holy Spirit by being washed clean.
Restoration by definition didnt work for them as they became exiled again. That kind of restoration was just a band aid. This would have been a vicious circle if it wasnt for Jesus blood bringing an end to sin through his sacrifice once and for all. 70 weeks were decreed for the hope of everlasting righteous and anointing of the Holy place for the repentant sinner.

1. Hebrews 9:12
   He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation ofall who personally believe in Him as Savior].
   Hebrews 10:20
2. by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh,

18 Now where there is [absolute] forgiveness and complete cancellation of the penalty of these things, there is no longer any offering [to be made to atone] for sin.
19 Therefore, believers, since we have confidence and full freedom to enter the Holy Place [the place where God dwells] by [means of] the blood of Jesus, 20 by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great and wonderful Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, 22 let us approach [God] with a true and sincere heart in unqualified assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us seize and hold tightly the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is reliable and trustworthy and faithful [to His word]; 24 and let us consider [thoughtfully] how we may encourage one another to love and to do good deeds, 25 not forsaking our meeting together [as believers for worship and instruction], as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more [faithfully] as you see the day [of Christ’s return] approaching.

I can't disagree with your soteriology--just your eschatology, and only because of 2 things, which makes me a Premillennial.
1) The promises God promised Abraham seem to require fulfillment in the present fallen age, and not in the eternal age of complete restoration.
2) Israel has literally been restored in modern times as a nation.

These 2 points are what made me a convinced Premillennial. Of course, probably the biggest influence was the Dispensationalists--I'm almost ashamed to admit, because I'm *not* a Dispensationalist! But they have good soteriology too!

The bottom line in this particular aspect of the discussion is that having good soteriology doesn't make the difference. But you did put up a reasonable argument in your defense. I'm not sure I can fall upon anything to refute your view except for the fact I take the "Millennium" literally, and you do not. Again, that is not decisive because many things in the book of Revelation are symbolic. Thanks Jeff!