The First and Second witness:

[VictoryinJesus]

Sometimes I get confused over who wrote what? I noticed this morning in my bible app that one of my favorite passages from 2 Corinthians which I always refer to as Paul’s second witness to the Corinthians…my bible app says “the second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Phillpi, a city of Macedonia by Titus and Lucas.

This confuses me. First it sounds like Paul who makes reference to the first time he has written (the first witness, 1 Corinthians) and how there is a second time, a second witness (2 Corinthians) and now being absent he forewarns of the third witness. How if he comes in person he will not spare, but warns ahead of time saying the Lord has given him the power for edification and not for their destruction so he writes while absent to avoid sharpness when he comes. If someone other than Paul wrote the second witness (2 Corinthians) then would that person who wrote the second witness also be the same one who wrote the first witness (1 Corinthians).

I’m not asking this to debate who wrote 2 Corinthians. I’m asking because every time I quote my favorite passage from 2 Corinthians I always refer to Paul’s …yes using words like “we do not fail” but ultimately I refer to Paul as standing abused and accused by his brothers…it is weird then to read that Paul didn’t write 2 Corinthians. It leaves me asking “ok. Then did Paul not write 1 Corinthians either?” It has become relevant to me in the first witness(1 Corinthians) , the second witness (2 Corinthians) …what is the third witness that Paul warns of?

 

[MatthewG]

Both are written by Paul?

1 Corinthians 1-2​

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New International Version​

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1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1-2​

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New International Version​

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1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't understand the question @VictoryinJesus. Timothy was with Paul during the second writing, and Sosthenes was with Paul during the first one.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Both are written by Paul?



I don't understand the question @VictoryinJesus. Timothy was with Paul during the second writing, and Sosthenes was with Paul during the first one.

I am asking who wrote 2 Corinthians, and who wrote first Corinthians? I’m sorry the question was confusing. I meant to be clear that in my bible app it says Paul didn’t write 2 Corinthians. That confused me.

 

[MatthewG]

Oh okay, Victory.

 

[Mr E]

I am asking who wrote 2 Corinthians, and who wrote first Corinthians? I’m sorry the question was confusing. I meant to be clear that in my bible app it says Paul didn’t write 2 Corinthians. That confused me.

The author(s) self-identify. What we call First Corninthians- Paul and Sosthenes, and what we call Second Corinthians- Paul and Timothy. They were written about a year apart.

But they were neither the first, nor the second letters he wrote to that church group. How do we know?

Well, as you point out.... Paul tells us. In 1 Cor 5:9 he mentions a previous letter, so 1 Cor is obviously not his actual first.

(“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people…”)

Then, what WE call 1 Corinthians would have been written.

Later--- in what we call Second Corinthians he refers to yet another-- tearful, severe letter that he had written. 2 Cor 2:3-4

(“I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears…”)


And finally-- he then writes what we call 2 Cor. Four letters in all.

 

[MatthewG]

Did you go grab your bible and figure it out @VictoryinJesus?

Was reading 2 Corinthians last night. Paul is the author it seems.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The author(s) self-identify. What we call First Corninthians- Paul and Sosthenes, and what we call Second Corinthians- Paul and Timothy. They were written about a year apart.

But they were neither the first, nor the second letters he wrote to that church group. How do we know?

Well, as you point out.... Paul tells us. In 1 Cor 5:9 he mentions a previous letter, so 1 Cor is obviously not his actual first.

(“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people…”)

Then, what WE call 1 Corinthians would have been written.

Later--- in what we call Second Corinthians he refers to yet another-- tearful, severe letter that he had written. 2 Cor 2:3-4

(“I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears…”)


And finally-- he then writes what we call 2 Cor. Four letters in all.

Now that really confuses me. It looks like I don’t understand the epistles: how many there are and who they were written to. Thank you. “What we call First Corninthians- Paul and Sosthenes, and what we call Second Corinthians- Paul and Timothy. “ even that I have read countless times and never noticed the opening of “and Sosthenes” “and Timothy”. I’m glad I notice it now.

I still don’t know why my bible app has this down at the bottom. ‘the second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Phillpi, a city of Macedonia by Titus and Lucas.’

But I feel more comfortable to continue to refer to Paul as the “me” being questioned by them. ‘Since you seek proof of Christ speaking in me, which is not weak, but is mighty in you.’

I did not know who Sosthenes is. But by what I read he was someone who same as Paul, Sosthenes had witnessed the transformation of “which is not weak, but is mighty in you” …same as Timothy which to me helps with who the “we” is Paul keeps referring to. An example “For we can do nothing against the truth but only for the the truth.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Did you go grab your bible and figure it out @VictoryinJesus?

Was reading 2 Corinthians last night. Paul is the author it seems.

Thank you also for slowing me down to notice “Timothy was with Paul during the second writing, and Sosthenes was with Paul during the first one.”

I can see Timothy and Sosthenes there also now. It makes sense to me they could have been writing or penning for Paul. Strangely the opening of the Revelation of Jesus Christ helped put some perspective to it ‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ God gave unto to him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto His servant John: who bare record of the word of God.’

It reminds me of where two or more are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst. And it reminds me of the Revelation of Jesus Christ which Paul said is how he had learn and was taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It reminds me that Timothy and Sosthenes bare record also of what they have seen and heard so to me it helps visualize two bare record in the writing of the epistle, two signify as witnesses of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That may sound confusing but it does help me see it doesn’t have to be a solo thing but now I can see or notice Timothy and Sosthenes writing down those things as help or aide with Paul yet all things given of God.

 

[Mr E]

Now that really confuses me. It looks like I don’t understand the epistles: how many there are and who they were written to. Thank you. “What we call First Corninthians- Paul and Sosthenes, and what we call Second Corinthians- Paul and Timothy. “ even that I have read countless times and never noticed the opening of “and Sosthenes” “and Timothy”. I’m glad I notice it now.

I still don’t know why my bible app has this down at the bottom. ‘the second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Phillpi, a city of Macedonia by Titus and Lucas.’

But I feel more comfortable to continue to refer to Paul as the “me” being questioned by them. ‘Since you seek proof of Christ speaking in me, which is not weak, but is mighty in you.’

I did not know who Sosthenes is. But by what I read he was someone who same as Paul, Sosthenes had witnessed the transformation of “which is not weak, but is mighty in you” …same as Timothy which to me helps with who the “we” is Paul keeps referring to. An example “For we can do nothing against the truth but only for the the truth.”

I didn't mean to confuse you. Paul is the most studied simply because we have the most information about him available.

Paul visits the city of Corinth in about the year 51. He's a traveling man, journeying from city to city-- At the time he writes the letter we call 1 Corinthians, he plans to go from Ephesus, passing through Macedonia, on to Corinth and then to Jerusalem with the collections he's extracting from each of these places. It's no different that what visiting missionaries might do in churches today. They go from church to church, sharing their stories, telling others what they are doing and asking for money to support their ministries. Well, that was the plan.

So he founds this church, then hears that it's having troubles. For members of Chloe’s household have made it clear to me, my brothers and sisters, that there are quarrels among you.
He gets word from church members that there are divisions within the church he started. He writes a letter (referenced in 1 Cor 5:9) and in it he attempts to set them straight on a few things, but word comes back that things are worse than ever, so he sends his associate Timothy to visit Corinth personally on his behalf and assess the situation. Word comes back from Timothy that things are NOT good, so Paul changes his plans and leaves Ephesus, heading directly to Corinth. It becomes what he later describes in his letter to that church-- "a painful visit." (1 Cor 2:1).

Paul is attacked by opponents in the church body there and rather than defend himself amidst this confrontation, he leaves somewhat defeated and dejected, returning to Ephesus because of this large scale opposition to his apostolic authority. Humiliated, but he doesn't retaliate. Instead, he writes this letter that we call 1 Corinthians that describes his experience during that painful visit.

He then writes a third letter-- that he sends his associate Titus with, to hand deliver in Corinth. We don't have this letter. Like the one mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9 that is unknown to us apart from Paul's mention of it, this third letter is also lost to us, but Paul references it in 2 Cor 2:3-4 and 7:8-9 and describes it as being written out of 'severe distress, painful anguish and with many tears.' It's a severe reprimand.

Paul sends Titus with this severe letter and waits for him to return with word on how it was received. He gets impatient while Titus is delayed in returning, so Paul ventures to Macedonia to find him. There he connects with Titus and gets the good news that his letter (written with many tears) was used to bring about the repentance of the majority of the church. (2 Cor 2:5-11). It's the best possible result, but he is also told that there remains a small, but vocal minority who are undermining him and who continue to reject his authority. In response Paul writes a fourth letter-- the one we call 2 Corinthians. He writes it from Macedonia, where he met up with Titus only a year or so after 1 Corinthians and in it he plans a third visit to the church in Corinth. (2 Cor 12:14)

Does this help?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I didn't mean to confuse you. Paul is the most studied simply because we have the most information about him available.

Paul visits the city of Corinth in about the year 51. He's a traveling man, journeying from city to city-- At the time he writes the letter we call 1 Corinthians, he plans to go from Ephesus, passing through Macedonia, on to Corinth and then to Jerusalem with the collections he's extracting from each of these places. It's no different that what visiting missionaries might do in churches today. They go from church to church, sharing their stories, telling others what they are doing and asking for money to support their ministries. Well, that was the plan.

So he founds this church, then hears that it's having troubles. For members of Chloe’s household have made it clear to me, my brothers and sisters, that there are quarrels among you.
He gets word from church members that there are divisions within the church he started. He writes a letter (referenced in 1 Cor 5:9) and in it he attempts to set them straight on a few things, but word comes back that things are worse than ever, so he sends his associate Timothy to visit Corinth personally on his behalf and assess the situation. Word comes back from Timothy that things are NOT good, so Paul changes his plans and leaves Ephesus, heading directly to Corinth. It becomes what he later describes in his letter to that church-- "a painful visit." (1 Cor 2:1).

Paul is attacked by opponents in the church body there and rather than defend himself amidst this confrontation, he leaves somewhat defeated and dejected, returning to Ephesus because of this large scale opposition to his apostolic authority. Humiliated, but he doesn't retaliate. Instead, he writes this letter that we call 1 Corinthians that describes his experience during that painful visit.

He then writes a third letter-- that he sends his associate Titus with, to hand deliver in Corinth. We don't have this letter. Like the one mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9 that is unknown to us apart from Paul's mention of it, this third letter is also lost to us, but Paul references it in 2 Cor 2:3-4 and 7:8-9 and describes it as being written out of 'severe distress, painful anguish and with many tears.' It's a severe reprimand.

Paul sends Titus with this severe letter and waits for him to return with word on how it was received. He gets impatient while Titus is delayed in returning, so Paul ventures to Macedonia to find him. There he connects with Titus and gets the good news that his letter (written with many tears) was used to bring about the repentance of the majority of the church. (2 Cor 2:5-11). It's the best possible result, but he is also told that there remains a small, but vocal minority who are undermining him and who continue to reject his authority. In response Paul writes a fourth letter-- the one we call 2 Corinthians. He writes it from Macedonia, where he met up with Titus only a year or so after 1 Corinthians and in it he plans a third visit to the church in Corinth. (2 Cor 12:14)

Does this help?

It does help. My head is spinning right now so I’m going to come back later hopefully with a clearer mind and read it again. 2 Corinthians 13 is one of my favorite passages. To me there is a lot in that passage. One thing that stands out with what you shared is there were still those who reject… to me Paul is telling them it is Christ they reject. It is the power of God thereof they reject and deny that power. For example: having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof, of such turn away from? To me that is what 2 Corinthians 13 is about they’re denying the power of God. Not Paul but the Spirit of God they deny. I think that is what Paul is warning them of…but he isn’t turning away from them it is their turning away from Paul that is denying “do what is right” “do no wrong” …or at least that is what it means to me right now. To me Paul has Faith in that which is unseen which is Christ being formed in them. Regardless of that which is seen, Paul says “I trust you will see.” Is Pauls trust in what is seen or that which is unseen? Makes me think of to bring to nothing that which is seen by that which is not seen.

Point is, I do see in what you shared above how it aligns with enduring hardness?

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you also for slowing me down to notice “Timothy was with Paul during the second writing, and Sosthenes was with Paul during the first one.”

I can see Timothy and Sosthenes there also now. It makes sense to me they could have been writing or penning for Paul. Strangely the opening of the Revelation of Jesus Christ helped put some perspective to it ‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ God gave unto to him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto His servant John: who bare record of the word of God.’

It reminds me of where two or more are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst. And it reminds me of the Revelation of Jesus Christ which Paul said is how he had learn and was taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It reminds me that Timothy and Sosthenes bare record also of what they have seen and heard so to me it helps visualize two bare record in the writing of the epistle, two signify as witnesses of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That may sound confusing but it does help me see it doesn’t have to be a solo thing but now I can see or notice Timothy and Sosthenes writing down those things as help or aide with Paul yet all things given of God.

Awesome thoughts, and hopefully you found the truth which sets a person free, Victory.

Your thoughts remind me of Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. Every person shall receive his/her own reward according to his/her own labor.

 

[Mr E]

It does help. My head is spinning right now so I’m going to come back later hopefully with a clearer mind and read it again. 2 Corinthians 13 is one of my favorite passages. To me there is a lot in that passage. One thing that stands out with what you shared is there were still those who reject… to me Paul is telling them it is Christ they reject. It is the power of God thereof they reject and deny that power. For example: having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof, of such turn away from? To me that is what 2 Corinthians 13 is about they’re denying the power of God. Not Paul but the Spirit of God they deny. I think that is what Paul is warning them of…but he isn’t turning away from them it is their turning away from Paul that is denying “do what is right” “do no wrong” …or at least that is what it means to me right now. To me Paul has Faith in that which is unseen which is Christ being formed in them. Regardless of that which is seen, Paul says “I trust you will see.” Is Pauls trust in what is seen or that which is unseen? Makes me think of to bring to nothing that which is seen by that which is not seen.

Point is, I do see in what you shared above how it aligns with enduring hardness?

Yes- He's returning there because they are questioning "Christ in him" which on the surface would seem like they are questioning Paul's sincerity, or authority-- but in reality, they are questioning the power and will of Christ who is working in and through Paul. Paul gets this right.... he sings this song.... 'We are weak, but he is strong-- Yes, Jesus loves me.'