The first horseman of the Apocalypse

[Zao is life]

Yes Daniel also sees the resurrection and final judgement of "All" taking place at the time of great tribulation, the books were opened, final judgement, the resurrection of life and contempt, in perfect agreement with John 5:28-29

Your claim that mortals are on earth in a Millennial Kingdom, being ruled by resurrected saints from heaven is "Error"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I didn't say anyting about mortals, I hope not. If there are, I really don't want to be their teacher. Those kids always know better than their teachers.

 

[Truth7t7]

You don't even see the part that destroys your claim.

Each in his own order. Who gets resurrected at the time of Christ and His coming? Does it say every human being?

You Have Been Clearly Shown, The Believer Is Resurrected On (The Last Day) At The Voice/Truump Of The Lord, That Will See "All" Resurrected

(ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES)

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

I didn't say anyting about mortals, I hope not. If there are, I really don't want to be their teacher. Those kids always know better than their teachers.

Please explain your belief in a Millennial Kingdom?

A Literal Kingdom On Earth?

Resurrected Tribulation Saints In Heaven, Rule Who On Earth?

Who Is In This Millennial Kingdom, Unsaved?In What Form, Flesh-Spiritual?

Do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 sheep/goats represents a Millennial kingdom on this earth?

 

[David in NJ]

But you completely ignore the more than twice in this thread that I said Christ Himself is not the rider, but the power behind the rider. The power behind the gospel going out.

The devil himself is not the rider on the red horse. The dragon is the power behind him. It is the dragon who gives the beast his seat, his power, and great authority.

The white horse is the actions of those sealed with the seal of God. Christ is the power behind them, the power behind the rider on the horse. The red horse is the action of those who worship the beast. The dragon is the power behind its rider.

Thank You for replying,
My inclination is towards scripture having the Governing say over itself.
i believe Scripture is self correcting when i or anyone make a mess of it. So i am quick to accept i am wrong when Scripture corrects me.
Throughout my 35 years of reading and studying the Word i have allowed adjustments along the way and will continue to do so.
Instead of taking offense, i rejoice afterwards because my main concern is for me not to get caught up in religious pathways and error.

i have found, from Scripture itself, that the only way to understand is through the Holy Spirit and study.
There are strict rules set forth by God that does not permit intellect to interfere. i often post them - Prov 30 & Rev 22

What you see in the First Seal / Rider Crown Bow White Horse may be correct and i may be wrong.

Would you be able to find Scripture in the Gospels and the Apostles that corroborate your analysis of the First Seal.
Thank You

 

[Timtofly]

The saints who will still be alive and remain will be here until the two witnesses have been resurrected because the dead in Christ will rise first. The overwhelming witness of scripture has the saints go through the full 42 months and all saints will be given the choice mentioned in Revelation 13. Either receive the mark, or perish.

Who is seen living and reigning with Christ a thousand years? What is it that identiifes them?

How can you have saints "going through", when they all will have to be beheaded to avoid the mark? The Two witnesses are two literal humans and they are the only ones not beheaded. Only the beheaded are resurrected.

All of Adam's flesh have to die, even the two witnesses, evidently.

 

[David in NJ]

How can you have saints "going through", when they all will have to be beheaded to avoid the mark? The Two witnesses are two literal humans and they are the only ones not beheaded. Only the beheaded are resurrected.

All of Adam's flesh have to die, even the two witnesses, evidently.

God has promised that He will bring some Saints through.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15-18

 

[Timtofly]

God has promised that He will bring some Saints through.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15-18

This happens at the 6th Seal. The church is harvested at the Seals. Israel is harvested at the Trumpets. The Nations, tares and wheat, are harvested in the Thunders. Those beheaded are harvested in the last 42 months given to Satan as the desolation of Daniel 9:27.

No one rightly divides Scripture, but claims everything happens in the same twinkling of an eye. Some here even claim the Millennium, et. all happens in that singularity, half a nanosecond.

The verse about perseverance is about every single believer since Christ ascended. We all have to be faithful to the end. Not that everyone had to be faithful for 1991 years, we cannot live that long. Nor even 2 years if they just accepted Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

You said: "Some here even claim the Millennium, et. all happens in that singularity, half a nanosecond."

i busted a gut on that one - is that for real? are they serious?

 

[Truth7t7]

How can you have saints "going through", when they all will have to be beheaded to avoid the mark? The Two witnesses are two literal humans and they are the only ones not beheaded. Only the beheaded are resurrected.

All of Adam's flesh have to die, even the two witnesses, evidently.

Nothing in Gods words states all Christian's are beheaded as you claim, more Tim La Haye Left Behind, 4th Sequel

 

[Truth7t7]

God has promised that He will bring some Saints through.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15-18

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[David in NJ]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

i firmly agree and i offer $1,000 to the first person who can prove otherwise.

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements
Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.
ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[David H.]

i firmly agree and i offer $1,000 to the first person who can prove otherwise.

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements
Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.
ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Although I Hope the pretribbers are right and we get to escape these things, AllMy reading and studying of Prophecy has led me to conclude that we will witness the great tribulation and the mark of the beast as believers but will be spared from the wrath of God.
That makes me a prewrather/ premillennialist.

Out of curiousity, @David in NJ , What are your views? What is your eschatology?

 

[David in NJ]

Although I Hope the pretribbers are right and we get to escape these things, AllMy reading and studying of Prophecy has led me to conclude that we will witness the great tribulation and the mark of the beast as believers but will be spared from the wrath of God.
That makes me a prewrather/ premillennialist.

Out of curiousity, @David in NJ , What are your views? What is your eschatology?

i hold views that are not mine but that i must follow to inherit eternal life - here they are

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist,” Says the LORD. “But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word. Isaiah 66:2

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his part in the Book of Life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Revelation 22: 18-19

 

[Timtofly]

Nothing in Gods words states all Christian's are beheaded as you claim, more Tim La Haye Left Behind, 4th Sequel

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Do you see any other souls mentioned here?

It is your claim these souls are physically dead and not in physical bodies. That would mean they lost their head to get to that condition. People still in their physical bodies, does not even fit your eschatology of this verse.

If this is not physical, then the only way to reign with Christ is to have one's head chopped off.

 

[Truth7t7]

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Do you see any other souls mentioned here?

It is your claim these souls are physically dead and not in physical bodies. That would mean they lost their head to get to that condition. People still in their physical bodies, does not even fit your eschatology of this verse.

If this is not physical, then the only way to reign with Christ is to have one's head chopped off.

All Christian's Won't Be Killed During The Tribulation As You Claim

Tim Lahaye Left Behind Episode 14 Sci-Fi

 

[Zao is life]

Would you be able to find Scripture in the Gospels and the Apostles that corroborate your analysis of the First Seal.
Thank You

@ David in NJ Thanks for your reply too

The gospels and apostles do not talk about the Revelation. They were dead (all except John) before the Revelation was given. Where they do prophesy, they use the same sort of apocalyptic language used frequently in the Bible, as does the Revelation. But the gospels and epistles do not talk about the horses and the riders on them, do they?

If you believe that Matthew 24 or the Olivet Discourse ties in with the seals, then consider the fact that Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

It's not in sequence in the Olivet Discourse, because verse 9 of Matthew 24 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and all of you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." They can't be hated of all nations before the gospel has been preached in all nations.

So if the Olivet Discourse ties in with the Revelation's seals, bear in mind what the Olivet Discourse has to say regarding the gospel being preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and ask yourself where that fits into the seals. (because you can't leave it out).

The seals are describing events taking place in the world, and the riders of the horses represent either the powers behind those events, or the cause of the events being described in the seal. The rider on the white horse represents either the two witnesses or the faithful church (or both) which will be prophesying during the final 3.5 years of this Age. The rider on the red horse is going out to take peace from the earth. The power behind him is the dragon. The second horseman is the antichrist. Not the first.

 

[Zao is life]

How can you have saints "going through", when they all will have to be beheaded to avoid the mark? The Two witnesses are two literal humans and they are the only ones not beheaded. Only the beheaded are resurrected.

All of Adam's flesh have to die, even the two witnesses, evidently.

Ask Paul. He's the one who said those whoare left and still alive will not precede those who have died in Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

You Have Been Clearly Shown, The Believer Is Resurrected On (The Last Day) At The Voice/Truump Of The Lord, That Will See "All" Resurrected

(ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES)

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

OK so in one and the same post you highlight in bold red where it speaks only of those who are Christ's being raised from the dead when He returns, and still claim it means all will be resurrected that day.

Well done.

 

[Zao is life]

Please explain your belief in a Millennial Kingdom?

A Literal Kingdom On Earth?

Resurrected Tribulation Saints In Heaven, Rule Who On Earth?

Who Is In This Millennial Kingdom, Unsaved?In What Form, Flesh-Spiritual?

Do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 sheep/goats represents a Millennial kingdom on this earth?

I can't explain my beliefs in a few words or three short sentences, because the Bible does not explain it in a few words or three short sentences.

So I will try and summarize:

Jesus is the son of man, whom God created to have dominion in the earth:

Psalm 8
4 What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
5 For you have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.
6 You made him to have dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet:

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 12:5 "And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. "

Revelation 2:26 "And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God." (The Greek word used in this verse is shepherd, not rule, so there is a reason for it).

Revelation 21 regarding the New Jerusalem
24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

BUT CHRIST WILL PUT AN END TO ALL HUMAN RULE AND AUTHORITY AND POWER (1 Corinthians 15:24). The only question is, "When"?

According to plain and unambiguous statements about this in the New Testament, Satan is not bound during this Age. The Revelation states that there will be saints who will be reigning with Christ on the earth following their resurrection, who are those having had part in the first resurrection after they had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and refusal to worship the beast.

Daniel 7:12 "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

I do not believe as you do (or implied that you do) that Daniel 7's fourth beast is not = Revelation 13:1-10's beast.

Aside from what Daniel 7:12 says (which is very fragile to go on), I do not know (have not a clue) who the mortals are who will be left to rule over, or how many there are left when the Lord returns. The New Testament does not tell me (at least not explicitly, and if it says who these mortals are implicitly, then like you, I have not found it).

But unlike yourself and A-millennialists, I do not flatly ignore all the scriptures in the New Testament that expose their "one thousand year period = "thousands of years" theory as being seriously flawed.

Nor do I claim that it's impossible that you (and all A-millennialists) will not be proved right. Nor do I claim to have all the answers, or to have the prophetic books of the Bible all sorted and clear.

So I don't ignore scriptures - neither the scriptures that (at least seem to) imply A-millennialism, nor the scriptures that expose Amillennilaism as false (and there are quite a few of them).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The fact of the matter is in the Revelation the color white is not used for anything that is Satanic. Not even once.

You've chosen to remain blind to that fact, though it's been shown to you so clearly. That's why the bottom of my signature says,

If you're standing in a dark room you can't expel darkness by hurling punches at the darkness. You shine a light into the darkness and the darkness will be expelled by the light.

But the blind still won't see the light.

Nonsense! Do you wear white clothing? So when you you wear white, your a saint and when you wear black your not? A horse is a horse, used for transportation. None of those horses are evil. It is the rider that brings evil. I think I'll ask for a pet black stallion when I get to heaven.
If the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Soros and Gates all get together and wear white clothing, does that mean Satan cannot use them to control the world. All the doctors that have some evil diabolical part in the Wigan Lab and Big PHARMA companies wear white. I guess they are innocent, godly people.
Yes we all want to trust the men in long white coats - but many have blood on them.
Did you get your shot, your experimental genetic therapy? We will see if it works, then we can say coronavirus did not conquer and things will soon get back to normal.
I doubt it.