The Five Points of Calvinism

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 KJV
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called : [27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Tecarta BibleIMO these are just a few of many scriptural references that are proclaiming who he chooses and why he chooses them. Paying close attention to verse 9 gives us the why, the flesh will profit nothing. This is not about our glorification... it’s about His.

 

[Enoch111]

But only those who come to Him in response to His call know that they are saved...the rest blindly go their own way, not comprehending what went on at the cross.

Obedience to the Gospel does involve the drawing of sinners to the Savior by the God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But that DOES NOT translate into God picking some for salvation and others for damnation.

All who hear (or read) the Gospel are drawn to the Savior. But at the same time they must respond to the Gospel with faith and repentance. If all would obey the Gospel all would be saved without exception.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That doesn't make sense... =quote;- "the finished work of Christ was for all humanity".....yes, and PERIOD.
But only those who come to Him in response to His call know that they are saved...the rest blindly go their own way, not comprehending what went on at the cross.

Think you an Enoch are actually saying the same thing here. Both acknowledging that Christ died on the cross for ALL men. Some accept His gift and are saved. Others do not accept go about their way. But again, Christ died for all.

 

[Waiting on him]

John 6:63 KJV
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Tecarta BibleHow do I reconcile this?

 

[Enoch111]

John 6:63 KJV
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Tecarta BibleHow do I reconcile this?

What this verse is telling us is that (1) the Gospel (the written Word of God) is a living Word and (2) it is the Holy Spirit which makes it a living Word.

For the Word of God is quick, [ALIVE, LIVING] and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His [THE HOLY SPIRIT'S] sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12,13, capitalization applied where necessary)

So the Gospel is to be preached to "every creature" according to Mark 16:15,16 (which means that God wants every human being to be saved), and when the living Gospel is preached it is designed to bring conviction and convincing to hearts that it is true and requires a genuine response from the hearer (or reader). Thus Peter says (1 Pet 1:23-25) that men are born again by the Word of God (the Gospel).

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.

And Paul says by the Holy Spirit: Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith), To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:..While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation... Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Heb 3:7,8,15; 4:7)

Why would God repeat "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" THREE TIMES (in the New Testament) unless it was necessary for people to respond to the Gospel rather than harden their hearts?

 

[Waiting on him]

What this verse is telling us is that (1) the Gospel (the written Word of God) is a living Word and (2) it is the Holy Spirit which makes it a living Word.

For the Word of God is quick, [ALIVE, LIVING] and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His [THE HOLY SPIRIT'S] sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12,13, capitalization applied where necessary)

So the Gospel is to be preached to "every creature" according to Mark 16:15,16 (which means that God wants every human being to be saved), and when the living Gospel is preached it is designed to bring conviction and convincing to hearts that it is true and requires a genuine response from the hearer (or reader). Thus Peter says (1 Pet 1:23-25) that men are born again by the Word of God (the Gospel).

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.

And Paul says by the Holy Spirit: Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith), To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:..While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation... Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Heb 3:7,8,15; 4:7)

Why would God repeat "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" THREE TIMES (in the New Testament) unless it was necessary for people to respond to the Gospel rather than harden their hearts?

So are your saying that the flesh does profit?

 

[Enoch111]

So are your saying that the flesh does profit?

Quite the opposite. Why don't you try and see what was presented with all the relevant Scriptures. Seems like people don't pay attention to what is actually in the Bible.

 

[Waiting on him]

Quite the opposite. Why don't you try and see what was presented with all the relevant Scriptures. Seems like people don't pay attention to what is actually in the Bible.

I’m trying to understand what people are saying I’m making this choice with if not the flesh

 

[Enoch111]

I’m trying to understand what people are saying I’m making this choice with if not the flesh

Well you started out by taking John 6:63 out of context. The Jews assumed that Christ was speaking about cannibalism when He spoke about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. That is why He had to clarify that by telling them that there was a spiritual dimension to what He was saying, and that His words could not be taken in a natural sense. That verse has no bearing on what we are discussing.

The Calvinists have distorted the Gospel completely by teaching that (a) sinners are incapable of responding to the Gospel, (b) God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation, (c) Christ died only for the elect, (d) those who are elect become saved through irresistible grace and (e) those who are saved persevere in their sanctification, rather than the fact that they are eternally secure because of Christ and His finished work of salvation (which also requires practical sanctification).

So you can either believe the false Gospel of Calvinism, or simply believe what the Bible actually says.

 

[Helen]

Obedience to the Gospel does involve the drawing of sinners to the Savior by the God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But that DOES NOT translate into God picking some for salvation and others for damnation.

No argument there...He has not picked some for salvation and some for damnation. So we agree.

But I also say..If my electric bill was PAID IN FULL..it is no longer my debt..it was paid...
I may not acknowledge it or say Thank You...I may not even know it's been paid.....but nevertheless it is still paid in full.

All men have been saved. Some know it, some don't.

 

[Waiting on him]

Well you started out by taking John 6:63 out of context. The Jews assumed that Christ was speaking about cannibalism when He spoke about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. That is why He had to clarify that by telling them that there was a spiritual dimension to what He was saying, and that His words could not be taken in a natural sense. That verse has no bearing on what we are discussing.

The Calvinists have distorted the Gospel completely by teaching that (a) sinners are incapable of responding to the Gospel, (b) God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation, (c) Christ died only for the elect, (d) those who are elect become saved through irresistible grace and (e) those who are saved persevere in their sanctification, rather than the fact that they are eternally secure because of Christ and His finished work of salvation (which also requires practical sanctification).

So you can either believe the false Gospel of Calvinism, or simply believe what the Bible actually says.

So he’s not saying my flesh profits nothing. He’s saying his flesh profits nothing?

 

[Enoch111]

So he’s not saying my flesh profits nothing. He’s saying his flesh profits nothing?

No, as I said the natural (*flesh*) interpretation of the words of Christ will profit nothing. No one can literally eat the body of Christ or drink His blood and be saved. But all can believe on Him and receive Him in Spirit and be saved, and be born again. And in the Lord's Supper, the bread and the cup are symbolic representations of the body and blood of Christ.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)

 

[Enoch111]

All men have been saved.

That should say "All men CAN BE saved". But only those who obey the Gospel will be saved. God commands repentance and faith for anyone to be saved.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)

 

[tabletalk]

Obedience to the Gospel does involve the drawing of sinners to the Savior by the God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But that DOES NOT translate into God picking some for salvation and others for damnation.

All who hear (or read) the Gospel are drawn to the Savior. But at the same time they must respond to the Gospel with faith and repentance. If all would obey the Gospel all would be saved without exception.

"All who hear (or read) the Gospel are drawn to the Savior."
Not true.
John 6 makes it clear that only those whom the Father gives to Jesus, will come to Him.
And, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…"
Zillions of people have read the Bible, or heard the gospel message, and not been "drawn to the Savior".

 

[Waiting on him]

No, as I said the natural (*flesh*) interpretation of the words of Christ will profit nothing. No one can literally eat the body of Christ or drink His blood and be saved. But all can believe on Him and receive Him in Spirit and be saved, and be born again. And in the Lord's Supper, the bread and the cup are symbolic representations of the body and blood of Christ.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)

So it’s totaly a work of the Spirit. So do you believe, it was the flesh of Christ that nailed his flesh to the cross, or was it the spirit

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So it’s totaly a work of the Spirit. So do you believe, it was the flesh of Christ that nailed his flesh to the cross, or was it the spirit

Explaining both view points here--

Both agree: Christ does the saving. It is HIS atonement which saves, and not men's efforts. It is the Holy Spirit (not natural fallen eyes) which revealed the things of God.

Non-Calvinist view point: Christ loves all men, died for all men, and the Spirit testifies to all men. Some men choose to accept His gift (and hence are saved), some do not (and hence all damned).
Calvinist view point: Christ loves only some men, died for only some men, and the Spirit testifies to only some men. These men are forcibly (aka without any consent/options) reborn and sent to Heaven. Men not in this special group are forcibly (aka without any consent/options) damned by God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Explaining both view points here--

Both agree: Christ does the saving. It is HIS atonement which saves, and not men's efforts. It is the Holy Spirit (not natural fallen eyes) which revealed the things of God.

Non-Calvinist view point: Christ loves all men, died for all men, and the Spirit testifies to all men. Some men choose to accept His gift (and hence are saved), some do not (and hence all damned).
Calvinist view point: Christ loves only some men, died for only some men, and the Spirit testifies to only some men. These men are forcibly (aka without any consent/options) reborn and sent to Heaven. Men not in this special group are forcibly (aka without any consent/options) damned by God.

So you should be able to answer the question. Was it the flesh of Jesus that naild him to the cross or was it the spirit??

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So you should be able to answer the question. Was it the flesh of Jesus that naild him to the cross or was it the spirit??

I'm not sure what that question has to do with this thread/discussion at all.

 

[Waiting on him]

Sobering. If I look to that cross and worship a body hanging there, I’ve erected an idol. I’m worshiping the flesh. If I Profess that with my flesh ive done something that is totaly and act of God ive done something even worse. Its why he says destroy it, (it profiteth nothing)He naild it to the cross not me

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sobering. If I look to that cross and worship a body hanging there, I’ve erected an idol. I’m worshiping the flesh. If I Profess that with my flesh ive done something that is totaly and act of God ive done something even worse. Its why he says destroy it, (it profiteth nothing)He naild it to the cross not me

I'm rally not following how this ties into the Calvinist / non-Calvinist discussion.