The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

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Jane_Doe22

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Personal insults? Accurate observations are not an insult. Your accusing me of lying about what others plainly teach on here would be considered an insult, but I'm not taking it personally, it's just another observation of behavior.

And no, I'm not answering a person concerning my beliefs when said have been plainly stated on here, and especially when you dodge and tuck tail when asked yours and other specific questions. This is the second time I've told you this very thing.
Again, more personal insults rather than actually talking about beleifs!

As to my beliefs, I have offered repeatedly to explain things to you if you are interested. Every time you have not respond to my offer, which I understand to be a "no" and hence i respected your choice. I have explained this to you already. It makes no logical sense to complain about me not explaining something that you have indicated you have zero interest in hearing and me respecting your lack of interest.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Again, more personal insults rather than actually talking about beleifs!

As to my beliefs, I have offered repeatedly to explain things to you if you are interested. Every time you have not respond to my offer, which I understand to be a "no" and hence i respected your choice. I have explained this to you already. It makes no logical sense to complain about me not explaining something that you have indicated you have zero interest in hearing and me respecting your lack of interest.

You really need to end your lame personal insult accusation campaign. Observing, and commenting on your behavior, that of others, and doing the same concerning their posted beliefs is not a personal insult. You're making category errors.

You really should apologize for bearing false witness when I stated what others believe on here when you misspoke and said no one here believes that, as if you're the spokesperson for all.

Not once have I misrepresented them. Twice you've lied against me, accusing me of stating things that are false.

Furthermore, you rarely, if ever employ Scripture, and lastly, my beliefs on here are known to all, and I've hidden nothing. This is the third time I've told you this. I have little to zero respect for anyone, including you, who bears false witness, and dodges questions as you have in the past. Enough of your "you respected my choice." Nope. You have zero respect, and bear false witness.

You need to apologize. You can start right there.
 

Jane_Doe22

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You really should apologize for bearing false witness when I stated what others believe on here when you misspoke and said no one here believes that, as if you're the spokesperson for all..
Please post the exact quote where somebody said "I believe that I save myself through my own choices and I am my own savior", and then we can talk about it. I haven't seen anyone post such a thing. The Arminian position of "I accepted my Savior's gift" does not equate to "I save myself".
lastly, my beliefs on here are known to all, and I've hidden nothing.
Then what problem have you answering my question explaining your beliefs?
I have little to zero respect for anyone, including you, who bears false witness, and dodges questions as you have in the past. Enough of your "you respected my choice." Nope. You have zero respect, and bear false witness.
Dude: you have indicated you NOT want to hear me explain about my beliefs. I respect your wish there and don't waste your time with stuff you don't want to hear... and you want me to apologize for showing you RESPECT?
Please stop with these most illogical complaints and accusations.
 

justbyfaith

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Yep. That's because their gospel doesn't exist in Scripture, and they're not interested in the least to look at what is offered them from within Scripture.

The scripture plainly shows forth the gospel that we are preaching; however it might be impossible for the blind to see and for the deaf to hear what is plainly shown forth in the holy scriptures.

Personal insults? Accurate observations are not an insult.

Except when they are made about you...
 

SovereignGrace

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You said that Calvinist beliefs were completely logical. Therefore, answering a logical question should be easy.
How is Bob supposed to be culpable for being born into a state that he had no control of and has no way to get out of?
Shall he likewise be condemned of being born with two hands and unable to grow a third one?
Or being unable to excise the Y chromosome from his DNA?

Man is born enslaved to sin. David testified to this when he wrote Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.[Psalms 51:5] He then testified to it again when he wrote The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They have venom like the venom of a serpent. Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, So that it does not hear the voice of charmers, Or a skillful caster of spells.[Psalms 58:3-5]

Now, would you address this?


What part of slave to sin do you not grasp? I am not being snarky, but asking you this legit question.


“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] Here we see the Christ saying there are two masters, Satan and God. The lost are enslaved to sin and Satan. Their wills are not free at all, but enslaved to sin and Satan.


Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."[John 8:34] Here the Christ is talking about the lost. Again, the lost are enslaved to sin and Satan, and this includes their wills.


knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;[Romans 6:6] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.[Romans 6:15-18] Even after salvation has taken place, no one has free will even then. They have become Christos Dolous, slaves to Christ.
 

SovereignGrace

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You said that Calvinist beliefs were completely logical. Therefore, answering a logical question should be easy.
How is Bob supposed to be culpable for being born into a state that he had no control of and has no way to get out of?
Shall he likewise be condemned of being born with two hands and unable to grow a third one?
Or being unable to excise the Y chromosome from his DNA?

If Bob was not born in this state, then there is no way he could die in infancy, seeing the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23] The reason why babies die either in the womb, or in infancy, is because they are conceived in sin, conceived dead in Adam.

Why do babies die if what you say is true? How can babies die in a sinless state, when sin is the penalty of death?
 

Jane_Doe22

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Man is born enslaved to sin. David testified to this when he wrote Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.[Psalms 51:5] He then testified to it again when he wrote The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They have venom like the venom of a serpent. Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, So that it does not hear the voice of charmers, Or a skillful caster of spells.[Psalms 58:3-5]
How is Bob supposed to be culpable for being born into a state that he had no control of and has no way to get out of?
Shall he likewise be condemned of being born with two hands and unable to grow a third one?
Or being unable to excise the Y chromosome from his DNA?

I will address you questions as soon as you directly answer mine (which is not done in the above paragraph). All you've done is stated that Bob is bon in a terrible situation and is left high and dry from birth. I want to know how will-less Bob is supposed to be culpable for being born badly.
 
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SovereignGrace

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How is Bob supposed to be culpable for being born into a state that he had no control of and has no way to get out of?
Shall he likewise be condemned of being born with two hands and unable to grow a third one?
Or being unable to excise the Y chromosome from his DNA?

I will address you questions as soon as you directly answer mine (which is not done in the above paragraph).

I already answered it. How could Bob die in infancy if he isn't born dead in sin? What Adam did was imputed to Bob, and Bob stood condemned in Adam, as if he was the one who sinned. That is why Bob is culpable.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I already answered it. How could Bob die in infancy if he isn't born dead in sin? What Adam did was imputed to Bob, and Bob stood condemned in Adam, as if he was the one who sinned. That is why Bob is culpable.
How is will-less Bob supposed to be culpable of any of this?
All you're doing is condemning him the crime of being born. Are you likewise going to condemn him for having a Y chromosone and being unable to change that?
 
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SovereignGrace

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How is will-less Bob supposed to be culpable of any of this?
All you're doing is condemning him the crime of being born. Are you likewise going to condemn him for having a Y chromosone and being unable to change that?

Adam plunged everyone of us into sin. He caused everyone of us to be born at enmity(ill-will towards) with God. That is why babies sin so easily. No one has to teach an infant to lie, steal, sin, &c. They have to teach them to do the right things. The wrong things are already built into them.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Bob willingly sins. Look at the crucifixion of the Christ. Those who nailed the Christ freely did this. No one twisted their arms and made them do it.

Bob is not will-less, but willfully sins.
So Bob does have a will now? Can Bob choose to accept Christ?
 
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Jane_Doe22

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I never denied Bob had a will. I have denied Bob has a free will. No one's will is free. Even the saved are slaves to righteousness.[Romans 6:18]
If you tell me that you believe Bob has the choice to accept or decline Christ's gift, then I will understand that you do believe will exist as does freedom.

I"ve met other Calvinists who just flat out deny any real freedom or will anywhere at anytime, so admittedly I'm a little skeptical here.
 
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