The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hi Anthony,

I'd still maintain that I'm the one that holds these words to their historical grammatical meaning, that is, the standard way that they were used at the time to the best of our knowledge.

What did the speaker mean when He said it?

"Confusing and conflating", love that word set!

God foreknew what would happen. Isn't that plainly seen?

God knows all things, omniscience, and has knowledge in advance, foreknowledge. These are fully compatible with each other, and neither causes us to need to change the meaning of the other from the normally understood meaning. One is to know all things, the other to know things ahead of time.

To change the meaning of foreknowledge into "forechoosing" is in my opinion unwarranted, unsupportable, and does not lead to correct conclusions.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I suppose you are one of those people who thinks that the kjv ain't the Bible...

Did the Apostles write in king james English, or greek?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hi Anthony,

I'd still maintain that I'm the one that holds these words to their historical grammatical meaning, that is, the standard way that they were used at the time to the best of our knowledge.

What did the speaker mean when He said it?

"Confusing and conflating", love that word set!

God foreknew what would happen. Isn't that plainly seen?

God knows all things, omniscience, and has knowledge in advance, foreknowledge. These are fully compatible with each other, and neither causes us to need to change the meaning of the other from the normally understood meaning. One is to know all things, the other to know things ahead of time.

To change the meaning of foreknowledge into "forechoosing" is in my opinion unwarranted, unsupportable, and does not lead to correct conclusions.

Much love!
Mark

Sorry you still do not get it, but maybe if you look at the texts, truth might come to you.

 

[marks]

John sees his child playing outside the house in the middle of the road. An 18 wheeler is barreling down the road towards his child. In a frenzy, he runs to the edge of the yard, starts yelling, "Boy, get out of the road, a truck is coming!" His child ignores him and keeps on playing. "Son, get over here before you get killed!" He ignores him and keeps on playing in the middle of the road. One last time he pleads, "Son, I love you! If I didn't love you, I would not warn you of the impending doom. Now, PLEASE, get out of the road!" The child ignores and gets ran over and is killed.

By using your logic, the dad did the right thing. By not coming onto the road and dragging his child out of harm's way, he warned him and left him to make the choice himself. Should the dad be lauded for this? Absolutely not. In reality, he should be imprisoned for being an unfit parent.

Not everyone is a child of God, salvifically, that is. God sent His Son to die for His elect sheep.[John 10:11, John 10:15 & Ephesians 5:25]

Hi SovereignGrace,

I'd have to add that in this example, the other alternative would be expressed as the Father sees two of his small children sleeping on the railroad tracks. The train will be coming through in 10 minutes. So he walks onto the tracks, pick up one child, and carries him to safety, leaving the other child to be dismembered by the train.

Is that love?

 

[marks]

Sorry you still do not get it, but maybe if you look at the texts, truth might come to you.

I'm sorry that you can only respond with a personal comment.

But on this I agree fully . . . we look to Scripture for truth.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

God is LOVE. True love does not enslave or force! True love much be freely given! God is not God without true love, which requires each person to choose. A slaver can never be God.

As to playing scriptural BB-guns, here's how that will go: I cite "For God so loved the world..." and then you go "no- the world doesn't mean the world, it just means some people", and I say "it literally says world, that means everyone." And you reply "no it doesn't". And it's just people degrading the words of God into BB guns as they fire them back and forth to "prove" their point. I find it to be incredibly disrespectful to scripture and a waste of time. Hence, my not playing BB-guns. Instead I'm going to take a wholistic approach.

Now would you care to respond to what I said?

Yep, it's a back and forth...I have heard and read every argument out there concerning this doctrine of men...It is something simple made complicated, and only the "elite" club get to heaven. How do they know THEY themselves are saved??! They don't, not anymore than any other Christian. The Holy Spirit bears witness and we do not need men to tell us w are going to burn in hell, for Gods Glory and their own arrogant glee.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I'm sorry that you can only respond with a personal comment.

But on this I agree fully . . . we look to Scripture for truth.

Much love!

I'm sorry that you can only respond with a personal comment.

But on this I agree fully . . . we look to Scripture for truth.

Much love!

You. Ignored the scripture explained to you already, so it makes no difference as you are a truth suppressor .

 

[marks]

as you are a truth suppressor .

That seems to ascribe the intent to keep people from God. I don't think you understand me well.

But just the same, I'm not hear to offer defense of my person. And there seems to be nothing else to respond to.

Much love!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I'm sorry that you can only respond with a personal comment.

But on this I agree fully . . . we look to Scripture for truth.

Much love!

Yet, as he said, you ignore the Scripture given.

You can "much love" all you want, but honestly it comes across ungenuine.

 

[marks]

Yet, as he said, you ignore the Scripture given.

You can "much love" all you want, but honestly it comes across ungenuine.

I'm sorry you are not able to receive the genuineness of love.

Let's look at some basic reality. We disagree on a particular doctrine, as many do. We've discussed it through a bit, and it's not the first time around for either of us.

In this case our disagreement has primarily to do with soteriology, but naturally impinges on other doctrines.

But I'm not recalling any indications (forgive me if I'm missing something) that we disagree that salvation is a gift of God through faith (therein rests our disagreement, the exact nature of that faith), purchased by Jesus in His death, glorified in His resurrection, with and in Whom we live. And we live in Him to produce works which remain. Would you not say we agree on these?

Can we not both of us accept that the other has a different view for what they believe to be good reason, in good conscience before God?

And as such, can we not with an honest heart want the very best, what God deems best, for the other? And is that not love?

Much love to you from God, and such as is mine.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SovereignGrace,

I'd have to add that in this example, the other alternative would be expressed as the Father sees two of his small children sleeping on the railroad tracks. The train will be coming through in 10 minutes. So he walks onto the tracks, pick up one child, and carries him to safety, leaving the other child to be dismembered by the train.

Is that love?

God saves all His children, yet not all His creation are His children in a biblical sense.

 

[marks]

God saves all His children, yet not all His creation are His children in a biblical sense.

Meaning that not all will be reborn, because not all were chosen for that salvation.

How does this differ from my example?

A man chooses to remove one sleeping child from the RR tracks, and leave another to be destroyed.
God chooses to give rebirth and eternal life to one dead man, and leaves another to be eternally tormented.

I would have to extend my example further though,

A man places two children, whom he has caused to sleep, on some train tracks. He waits for the sound of the train whistle. He removes one, and leaves the other. The train rushes by.

God creates man, ordained to sin, to die, and sin they do. He determines divine judgment, destruction to the sinner, then chooses some to escape that fate, giving them righteousness and life. The rest He leaves to their fate, eternal torment. And at the great white throne, Jesus, just like He planned all along, just what He wanted, tosses those into the lake of fire.

Do you feel my example does not convey the same thing?

Much love!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Meaning that not all will be reborn, because not all were chosen for that salvation.

How does this differ from my example?

A man chooses to remove one sleeping child from the RR tracks, and leave another to be destroyed.
God chooses to give rebirth and eternal life to one dead man, and leaves another to be eternally tormented.

I would have to extend my example further though,

A man places two children, whom he has caused to sleep, on some train tracks. He waits for the sound of the train whistle. He removes one, and leaves the other. The train rushes by.

God creates man, ordained to sin, to die, and sin they do. He determines divine judgment, destruction to the sinner, then choses some to escape that fate, giving them righteousness and life. The rest He leaves to their fate, eternal torment. And at the great white throne, Jesus, just like He planned all along, just what He wanted, tosses those into the lake of fire.

Do you feel my example does not convey the same thing?

Much love!

What it boils down to is grace. If grace is grace, then grace must be free. If God has to offer grace to everybody w/o exception, then it ceases to be grace, but merit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Meaning that not all will be reborn, because not all were chosen for that salvation.

How does this differ from my example?

A man chooses to remove one sleeping child from the RR tracks, and leave another to be destroyed.
God chooses to give rebirth and eternal life to one dead man, and leaves another to be eternally tormented.

I would have to extend my example further though,

A man places two children, whom he has caused to sleep, on some train tracks. He waits for the sound of the train whistle. He removes one, and leaves the other. The train rushes by.

God creates man, ordained to sin, to die, and sin they do. He determines divine judgment, destruction to the sinner, then choses some to escape that fate, giving them righteousness and life. The rest He leaves to their fate, eternal torment. And at the great white throne, Jesus, just like He planned all along, just what He wanted, tosses those into the lake of fire.

Do you feel my example does not convey the same thing?

Much love!

John 5:21.

 

[marks]

John 5:21.

And whom does He will?

A clue is in . . .

Much love!

 

[SovereignGrace]

And whom does He will?

A clue is in . . .

Much love!

He quickens those whom He wills. It’s His will that quickens His sheep. Romans 9:16

 

[marks]

What it boils down to is grace. If grace is grace, then grace must be free. If God has to offer grace to everybody w/o exception, then it ceases to be grace, but merit.

How is that so?

Now . . . you say, if God HAS TO offer grace . . . whom would force God to? None.

But if God has chosen to offer grace to all, none forces Him. He is sovereign. His offer, His free gift, no merit at all. Faith and Grace demand each other. God's free gift to all who believe.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He quickens those whom He wills. It’s His will that quickens His sheep. Romans 9:16

You are posting passages that say God chooses, but I'm asking what is the criteria by which He chooses? I believe the Bible tells us. He loves us all, and so He reconciled all of us. Having reconciled all of us, and said that He wants all of us, this is His choice, and His criteria is who will actually want to be with Him.

Much love!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What it boils down to is grace. If grace is grace, then grace must be free. If God has to offer grace to everybody w/o exception, then it ceases to be grace, but merit.

...or obligation.

And to "them" if he doesn't do this, he can't be God because God must bow to what rules they've given him. If not, they pull their Romans 9:20 card, because there is no way God is fair.

In other words, they can't be having God be God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How is that so?

Now . . . you say, if God HAS TO offer grace . . . whom would force God to? None.

But if God has chosen to offer grace to all, none forces Him. He is sovereign. His offer, His free gift, no merit at all. Faith and Grace demand each other. God's free gift to all who believe.

Much love!

God is not beholden to man. Faith and grace are both gift of God. God doesn’t offer grace, He bestows it to whomever He wills.